A New Year’s Day shooting in which a subway police officer fired a deadly shot into the back of an unarmed man has the San Francisco Bay Area demanding answers as authorities appeal for patience…
The young men had been celebrating the new year at a popular waterfront tourist spot, The Embarcadero. They were heading home when police pulled them from the train car. Some of the young men were handcuffed, but not 22-year-old Oscar Grant. The video from the anonymous passenger shows Grant seated on the floor with his back against the wall.
Grant holds up his hands, appearing to plead with police. Burris said Tuesday that Grant was asking police not to use a Taser.
Seconds later, police put Grant face-down on the ground. Grant appears to struggle. One of the officers kneels on Grant as another officer stands up, tugs at his gun, unholsters it and fires a shot into Grant’s back.
The bullet went through Grant’s back and then ricocheted off the floor and through his lungs. Grant…died seven hours later, KTVU reported.
Unconscionable, unforgivable.
#89–Mustard==is that what you saw on the video?
The hard criminal you refer to is the exception. Most cops never pull their guns in anger==so why should they have them?
Yes, my idea may not work in our insane times, but its always a good notion to keep in mind.
How can we ever know what a “competent” professional police service would look like? (ie==we’ve never had one.)
#91 – Bobbo
>>The hard criminal you refer to is the
>>exception. Most cops never pull their guns
>>in anger==so why should they have them?
Maybe it’s the exception on your Berkely commune, but not everywhere. Sure, maybe Barney Fife coralling wayward elementary schoolchildren in some bucolic rural hamlet could maybe get away with just a whistle and a stern look. What about Compton? Liberty City? Trenchtown? South Bronx? Cops on the Organized Crime Task Force? DEA?
Mustard–those are all fine situations for armed special tactics. Why can’t you get real about the 99% rest of America? What percentage of criminal mentality power heads become cops just so they can have a gun? Yea.
But, I saw a big crack in your statement “Until no guns exist then anybody who wants one should have one”–meaning you can’t think rationally. But you seem to admit that some people should not have guns. I’d start with average cops in average circumstances. They could lead our society into better attitudes rather than stand as models for contempt.
Oh, for Christ’s sake, Bobo. You’re relentless.
Who should be the “armed special tactics”? Cops in NYC, Chicago, and LA? What about Cleveland? Boston? Miami? Minneapolis? Which major cities would YOU like to be an unarmed cop in? Should only a select few be allowed to carry guns, and “call for backup” when they get in a confrontation with armed gang members? What do they do in the meantime? Pray?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe some felonious-minded citizens decline to get in a gun battle with the cops FOR THE VERY REASON that they know the cops will shoot back?
I think you better lay off the ‘shrooms. I’m all for peace, love, and understanding, but to expect unarmed law enforcement to wander into the naughty parts of town, hoping that the Eagle badge and the hugging will sooth the savage beasts went out of favor a little after Woodstock.
#94–Mustard==yea, its all interactive and perspective based isn’t it. To the degree you are right, its just signifies how far down the drain gun rights have taken us. Maybe its too late. Hopefully a new dawn will break when people won’t think a gun is their only means of protection.
I’m thru.
I am not sure what came first, abusive Cops or aggressive criminals.
With one of the worlds highest incarceration rate, you would think our crime rate would be the lowest in the world. News flash, it’s not. Many once non violent petty criminals become violent once they are released. Our criminal system seem to only escalate crime.
Many young family members exposed to police abuse by watching police abuse of another family member become criminals themselves as a means of protection and support.
Why do you think kids where baggy, unbelted falling pants. Where do you think that came from. It came from people returning from prison.
As more and more members of society get more and more beat down by lack of opportunity and government official’s abuse, people will reach a tipping point and riot, as they are doing now. No Justice no peace.
Law and order don’t mean much in a society with no opportunity, mass unemployment and a scene of governmental abuse of authority.
If government want’s some respect, it needs to deal aggressively against abusive police, more so then unruly back talking citizens.
geez, haven’t any of you ever BEEN to the Fruitvale BART station?!!
First of all, it’s a narrow platform, raised high up (it’s at least 4 stories above the street). The only way up/down is via some cement stairs or a usually NOT working escalator, or an elevator that is almost never working. There are three cops and four people they’re trying to detain. The other side of the station are a group of monkeys yelling and taunting, and, the cops are stressed..you can see it in their body language. They’re wondering how do they get these four down the stairs…and into cars…(remember these guys had been fighting on a BART car, endangering peoples lives, as they fought…with passengers trying to not get in the fray) It was New Year’s Eve and every cop in Oakland was probably busy elsewhere (note BART cops are a separate police force, they’re not Oakland Cops). So, no backup.
The guy may not have been resisting in the classic sense, but he wasn’t cooperating!
The cops looked stressed, uncertain, and confused. They were all regular officers, and no one was in charge, obviously. Meanwhile, BART police were busy at every station with dozens of rowdy riders, drunks, and a lot of the typical pickpockets, etc. I doubt they had a clear communication with anyone in charge, and that pesky idea “how to get four guys downstairs with the crowds…” was distracting them.
The body language after the shooting is unmistakable. WTF??? What happened? If you look at the body language of all the cops..they were stunned. The shooting cop seemed the most bewildered of them all. He looks down several times at his belt.
Cops are cops. They’re humans. They make mistakes. This was a very unfortunate mistake. But it’s no less a mistake than some one hitting the gas instead of the brake and killing a kid on a bike. The reality is, the bullshit that is going on after this..the “I hate cops” the “kill the cop” the “charge him with murder” …is mob mentality chickenshit crap.
GROW UP.
You’re no better than those rioters who are smashing windows and ruining people’s lives, and saying that it’s justice.
In fact, I’d guess that for all the chest beating I’m reading on this, and other blogs, that you guys should all go visit your favorite pron site…and get your rocks off, get some sleep, and try to not act so much like adolescent boys.
You are pathetic.
#97 Ok it’s not murder it’s homicide, but it’s still a crime. Let’s not forget the victim of this alleged accident. The police have their training and if they follow that training this kind of thing should be rare. Unfortunately it’s not, that’s why the natives are restless. Cops in the US are developing some very violent techniques that don’t neccessarily coincide with SOP. The increase in unecessary tazings is a good example of this. Maybe we need some new rules and better training for these vital public servants.
#97, meetsy,
I see your point, but you miss some things.
It doesn’t matter if he was not cooperating. The point is he was not resisting. He was cuffed and one cop had his knee on his head. That means he was subdued. If the cop thought he deserved to be tazered then the cop was wrong. At that point the tazer would have been a torture device and an assault. Instead of the tazer though, it was a firearm. Committing a homicide during the commission of a crime makes it First Degree Murder.
Yes, yes, we can sympathize with the cop. He didn’t mean to do it, yada yada, it was an accident, yada yada, he thought it was a tazer, yada.
Bullshit. The cop and his associates were overly rough and abusive with the victim and the others that night. What the people are protesting is this unrestrained abuse by police.
That the police were busy is not an excuse to assault the prisoners. That there might not be any backup is not an excuse to tazer a subdued prisoner. That they had four flights of steps to go down is not an excuse to shoot one of them. That there were many bystanders is not an excuse to not act professionally.
No, rioting is not the answer. BUT, how long does it take to investigate? If this was a civilian, his / her ass would be in jail right now. In fact, all those there that night would be in jail. It would be a First Degree Murder charge on all of them which means no bail. But no, they are cops so there has to be a long investigation before it is swept under the rub.
So far there are two videos clearly showing an unprovoked murder. That is sufficient evidence to identify the police and charge them.
As I posted earlier, if someone just got their license and drove an 18 wheeler into a school bus, how well could you say it was only an accident? I’m sure that driver would be more than shocked.
Don’t worry, there’s always a cop-friendly jury packed with young white rightwing lower class males ready to exonerate the police no matter what they steal or who they kill.
Bart Police are half asses cops, only little big greater and trained then Mall Security. Their primary job is to catch people who jumping the tickets and using handicap passes.
I don’t even know why they even have guns.
Mustard—have you been thinking?
Why should “ALL” cops have guns?
zzzzzz at Post #101 highlights the issue–why should “Bart Cops ” carry anything other than a baton, mace, and a radio when they patrol as a gang?
Why aren’t Meter Maids armed and dangerous?
If you don’t change a mindset, how do you get a different outcome? Maybe you like the cesspool America is becoming—more justification to carry your weapon.
I don’t think he was reaching for his taser, like # 40 something said, it seemed it was in a cross-body holster. He had clear access to the gun, he even paused, then fired.
This situation does not make sense and the cop’s actions did not make sense. Why project an intellectual rational point of view on a guy that was not rational and not in touch with reality.
Nowhere in the thread did I see mention of the BART surveillance tapes which are being withheld.
What do you suppose can be done with them while in the possession of BART/DA/police?
Also, since the officer who appears to have carried out an execution has resigned, is therefore covered by the fifth and cannot be investigated by the department, why would taxpayers pay to defend him? Why is he not in custody right now?
Surely he is a flight risk.
I do not believe in the death penalty or threats of murder. We need to know the truth of the police state that is part of this. How are they trained? What is the culture of cover-up, racism, orders from the top, and so on.
A trial may be a way to discover and reveal the reality and may serve the purpose of raising consciousness.
It is fresh again in our memory the pre-meditated murder of SF mayor Moscone and Harvey Milk (the film “Milk”), and the double-murderer ex-cop/fireman/supervisor got only five years! We cannot let this happen again!
It explains why most are disgusted and disillusioned with “justice” in the good ol’ U S of A. Nevertheless, the escalation of violence will cause more pain and less justice than ever.
#102 – Bobbo
>>Why should “ALL” cops have guns?
Not everyone that works for the police department has a gun. If you meant to say “why should law enforcement personnel that put themselves at risk by going into dangerous envirnments, dealing with individuals who may or may not have guns, who may or may not have other lethal weapons, who may or may not vastly outnumber the police, and who may or may not be mentally unstable”, I think the answer is self-evident.
>>why should “Bart Cops ” carry anything other
>>than a baton, mace, and a radio when they
>>patrol as a gang?
I don’t know BART’s mandate. If, as zzzzzzz claims, they’re nothing more than glorified mall security guards who bow to the greater authority of the local police, I guess they shouldn’t.
If they’re like Amtrak police, who operate independent of local police (only the FBI will be called in for Amtrak crimes if necessary; no support from the local cops), then they maybe they should. Amtrak police, at least in the Northeast Corridor, are bristling with weaponry, and often have dogs with them. Odd, I don’t think I can recall ever seeing a crime committed on an Amtrak train, or in a train station for that matter (other than big multi-use places like Penn Station or Union Station). Hmmm. Cause? Effect? Who’s to say?
Fusion,
I don’t think you’ve ever been in a situation like the cops were in. I don’t think you’ve seen the Fruitvale BART station. I don’t think you can jump to assumptions.
Yes, I agree homicide.
The PROBLEM was 4 detainees, 3 cops. It was the numbers that were the problem….they’d have to subdue the most active one, one cop haul him down to the car, then come up, and then take the next (bigger guy) down, then, the last two could be dealt with easily. They were waiting (obviously, by the way they kept looking down the tracks) for the train to come and take the onlookers from the other side of the station.
If this was PURELY murder, and/or torture, don’t you think they would have delayed until AFTER the onlookers were swept away by the next SF or Richmond bound train?
You guys need to go down and SEE the Fruitvale Station, before you can make some of these assumptions.
Meanwhile, the BART camera’s at that station are easily within reach and are always getting thunked by some high-jumping goofball. I don’t think they’ve ever been working since they were installed….or they’re pointing off at the moon.
Geez, Fellas….
And, yes, BART cops are like mini-mall cops. They aren’t well trained. Its seen as a stepping stone to get to a REAL department as a lateral move (and more $$). The training is awful, and the usual cop work they do is ticket people for eating on a train, or peeing in the station. It’s not a high functioning job, thats for certain. And, add to that, there aren’t that many cops given the size of the BART area (what? covers like 4 counties?). The local cops in each town ignore them and as…the BART cops use a different code system than most every other cop shop in the area…they don’t communicate well with each other (Last I knew, there were five or six different versions of “codes” being used in the greater SF Bay Area).
I don’t know why they have guns or tazers, aside from the fact that some of the stations are in pretty bad areas, and there are a LOT of armed crime in the parking lots.
YES they need more training. Perhaps this cop wasn’t the brightest bulb in the pack. But, if he was intending to shoot a person in cold blood…I can’t see why he didn’t wait three or four minutes for the station (and the cell phone cameras aimed at him) to be gone. I also don’t see it in his body language…he looks pretty tentative to me…hesitant. I would guess that another, senior cop had instructed him to zap the guy. Nothing in how he is moving makes me think that it was anything other than a stress mistake.
Humans make mistakes. They make simple mistakes (putting the milk in the cupboard instead of the fridge). They make annoying mistakes (putting their wallets on top of the car and driving off). They make major mistakes (not reacting to a red light, or seeing the green light a block away, heading onto a freeway off ramp, heading the wrong way down a one way street) and they make life altering mistakes. This cop made a life altering one. His life will never be the same, and he can never fix it. For all purposes, it is ruined at 27, with no hope of redemption.
Yes, he should be charged with homicide.
But, any punishment will never be worse than the punishment he will do to himself. It’s a nightmare he will never wake up from.
Another black gangster killed….YES!!!!
Meetsy,
All those mitigating circumstances don’t mean anything.
They roughed up the prisoners. They assaulted the victim. That makes it an crime. A homicide during the commission of a crime is always first degree murder and qualifies for the death penalty.
The other cops were accomplices, like it or not. They were present and assisted in the assault.
The condition of the station, the victims criminal history, and the price of bananas are all irrelevant to the commission of the crime. The cops abused their authority and a person died.
Yes, this is a life altering mistake. BUT, you can’t just dismiss what these cops did with a line about “gee, it’s a tough life, it just ain’t fair”. You leave your wallet on the car roof, you loose your ID. Put the milk in the cupboard and you have to buy more milk. (Am I noticing a trend :)) Shoot someone you go to jail. Assist someone who commits a crime, you go to jail.
What so many people upset is that 1 1/2 weeks later the cop is still walking free on the street. If this was anyone else they would be behind bars without bail. When the evidence is there on two different cameras and there are multiple witnesses to the fact, what part of the investigation is still on-going?
Return to my truck driver who drives into the side of the school bus. Does anyone care that he is tired, or the brakes on the truck might have been worn, or the bus didn’t stop at the sign, or the road was slick, or the driver’s wife is in the hospital, or the intersection was obstructed, or … . All people care about is that their kids were killed or injured by an inexperienced truck driver.
What we care about here is that a cop killed someone. Everything else is an excuse.
Fusion,
I don’t know if you have really been FOLLOWING the story but: a.) two groups of guys were fighting on a packed BART train. b.) cops pulled them out and “roughed them up” (but certainly no worse than what they did to themselves, and/or other passengers in their free-for-all on a crowded municipal railway). Not like these guys were really concerned with other people…fighting on a BART train endangers everyone. From the initial report…they were running through the train, pursuing each other, yelling, shouting, and being basic hoodlums.
The cop, who has since quit, has had numerous death threats, as have his whole family. They are in hiding. His GF just gave birth a day or so after this event. She and the baby have had death threats.
I’m not saying don’t put the guy on trial, however, he’s a.) not a “real cop” but a municipal railway security guard, and b.) if the dead idiot wasn’t being an asshole and fighting on a BART train, none of this could have happened.
Meanwhile, the fact that Black Block and other assholes and Anarchists have shown up to riot, break windows, and urge on the throng with the justification that it was warranted since a cop killed a dude…. I can hardly see where violent protests, by a group of outsiders, mob mentality, and death threats to the cop, his family, newly born baby, girlfriend, etc…. do a thing to make this all right.
I really detest the bullshit here.
The people fighting, by the way, were black on hispanic. Yeah, can’t we all get along, huh?
Oh fusion,
If a truck’s brakes failed and it plowed into a school bus…even if dozens of kids were killed…would be ruled manslaughter. Not homicide.
Get real, man, you’re losing the argument by sounding a little testosterone crazed and your cop hatred is showing. Yeah, yeah, I know “fuxk the police”. Whatever…
And, it’s not like these guys arrested were just sitting on the train minding themselves and reading magazines and then pulled out by the cops…..remember, they were drunken, disorderly, and endangering other passengers. So keep your perspective.
It was an unfortunate accident. I’m very sorry for the poor guy AND his daughter and family. However, how is this WORSE than what happened in Seattle the same night, when a 20 year old white dude, dressed up in an old Nazi uniform, with a WW2 issue German rifle and bayonette….was shot by SEVERAL cops. The guy was celebrating NYE by shooting off some rounds of blanks. Everyone in his group was wearing various old military clothing (some stupid club they were in). No criminal record. Three or four cops opened fire. The Seattle Cops killed the guy in cold blood, don’t you think?
In fact, that killing was within moments of the guy on BART getting killed. Gee. Weird.
Oh wait, I see, who gives a flying rats ass, that guy was WHITE. Oh yeah. That’s it the guy on BART was black and we have to do this white-guilt racist reaction. Wonderful. Nice to see you think with the pack, Fusion.
#110–meetsy==I could quibble with Fusion==the issue is not that a cop killed someone but rather that a person killed another person. The fact that the guy was a cop, or a bart cop, or whatever is just an additional angle. The fact that he did it with a gun is a third angle.
I also don’t think the other two cops were accomplaces unless it is shown there was some sort of pre-arranged plan to kill someone that night. ie–the other two cops were engaged in their legitimate duties.
But “on balance” Fusion is mostly correct in his post #108 and YOU would benefit from being “relevant” in your massing of facts/arguments. Injecting race is likewise irrelevant. I watched the video and didn’t notice==course my screen is set for printed material and shows videos a bit dark loosing racial details.
I don’t care what he was trying to grab. He shot the kid. It would still have been a fucked up situation if he had tasered him. People have died from tasers as well. Would the cop have felt better about himself using violence with a taser instead of a gun? I have no sympathy for the cop. No sympathy for anyone in power using their poisition for violence.
this is so upsetting.
Update:
Ex-officer arrested in BART shooting
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/14/BART.shooting.arrest/index.html
Paddy–your link did not open for me. Here’s another report:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/14/oscar-grants-killer-bart-_n_157824.html
The Bartcop must be nuts. If I ever shoot anyone for no reason at all and decide to quit my job, I’ll move farther away from California than Nevada. Travel is not that harsh compared to a jail cell.
TELL ME MR.AND MS. WHITE PEOPLE WHY U HATE MY PEOPLE WHAT WE HAVE DONE THAT U STILL HATE US.IS IT WAR U WANT.STOP THE HATE OR WE WILL HAVE WAR.