While Israel needed to do something about it being attacked, are the air strikes with all the civilian casualties only creating more hatred and suicide bombers and such? What can possibly be the outcome of a house to house ground war in Gaza? Or is that prospect just posturing to pressure the people to oust Hamas, assuming they could?
Israel bombed a mosque and the homes of at least half a dozen Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip on Friday and allowed foreign passport holders to leave the ravaged territory, as speculation rose that a ground assault could be imminent.
Israel’s offensive in Gaza, which began last Saturday, has been carried out exclusively by air and by sea. After a day of heavy rain, the weather improved Thursday, and military analysts said Israeli tanks and other vehicles massed on Gaza’s border could more easily enter the territory.
[…]
“The forces are there, and they’re ready for anything,” said an Israeli military spokeswoman, Maj. Avital Leibovich.
[…]
Although Israel rejected a cease-fire proposal this week, there were signs Thursday that it was stepping up its diplomatic efforts. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni traveled to France, where officials have been leading an international campaign to persuade Israel and Hamas to hold their fire.But there is pressure within Israel for the government to continue its campaign, and perhaps topple Hamas altogether. That would almost certainly require a ground operation, which would be likely to raise the death toll substantially on both sides.
“There is no way to take Hamas out without going into Gaza. The problem is the price,” said Yaakov Amidror, a retired Israeli major general who headed the military’s research and assessment division. “My feeling is that we should do it. All the other players in the region are wondering why we are hesitating if we are so strong.”
#62 – Bobo
>>Everything you disagree with must be
>>associated with a religious view you find
>>blasphemous? HARRRRR!!!
Woops, my bad, Bobo. The Chosen People occupying the Promised Land, standing fast against the Sunni Muslims? How could I imagine that had anything to do with religion? Gawrsh!!
btw, I don’t find Judaism to be blasphemous, nor do I consider Islam, Zoroastrianism, or neo-paganism to be blasphemous.
You see, Mista Bobbalina, my mind is broad enough not to reflexively associate faith with nothing more than boy-fucking priests and suicide bombers.
Quit capitalizing “Nation State”. And decide whether you think it’s one word (“Nationstate”) or two (“Nation State”). Or is that just more of your poetry in motion?
Obama needs to head on over there and calm things down. He could probably convince them to tone down the violence and just junk-punch each other up in their respective man business. It would be funny as hell and could act as a type preemptive Darwinism.
66,
Well, the original Balfour declaration was specific in that a “Jewish” homeland was to be created in what was British Palestine, the crux of the matter was that the natives (the darker people) were to be left in peace and allowed their own existence.
Quoting the dude himself…
“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country”.
Anyhoo… the Zionists determined to get rid of the British… so they bombed them. And then they bombed them and tried to blame it on the Palestinians… And everything just got more and more fucked up…
Unfortunately, America got involved too deeply… Now they pay Israel and Egypt BOTH to STFU and not go total annihilation. It’s not working out so well is it?
And that’s why your nationstate argument fails so badly… Israel is NOT doing it by it’s own volition. It is doing it based on the ability of the American taxpayers to fund their passions while their own country (America) melts down and the Balfour declaration to hold up and say “God AND Balfour gave it to us!”
#68–Mustard, fair points to a small degree. Sadly, it does come down to “set theory.”
You make the same mistake here you make elsewhere in claiming Stalin killed people in the name of atheism, and further that his religion was atheism. A very religious bound view of the world.
No. Stalin did many nasty things and he was an atheist. No causation established.
The Jews and Arabs have different religions –no causation established.
I presume Israel’s position would be the same if Lebanon were occupied by Orthodox Jews who wanted to wipe the more liberal Jews of Israel off the map and started rocket attacks?
You see the RELEVANT FACT is not religion but the use of force, both pro and con.
As to punctuation, you are right ===I don’t care.
#7—named==how does what you say make any difference at all? All nations have allies and gain support where they do. In several of the wars, Israel was supported by USA while Arab states were supported by Russia. Neither affects the “claims” of legitimacy. Power still controls however it is created and maintained.
Again, you fail to state any contradiction in facts that are relevant.
That Balfour wording you reference is political double speak and impossible on its face: We want to add 3-4-5 Million Jews into Palestine but not affect the Palestinians living there. Who was kidded by that? Just more nonsense from politicians.
Israel is not going anywhere. What you gonna do?
Man, none of this shit used to happen when the Canaanites and Philistines were in control.
#71 – Bobbolina
>>You make the same mistake here you make
>>elsewhere in claiming Stalin killed people
>>in the name of atheism, and further that his
>>religion was atheism.
No more of a mistake than you, Bobbolina, when you point out some theist who has done terrible things and attribute it to their religiousity. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, son. And if killing someone for belonging to another religion is an atrocity, it makes no difference if it’s Christians vs. pagans, Jews vs. Muslims, or Atheists vs. theists.
If you don’t like it when I point out, you must not like it when you point it out either. Only logical, hmmmm?
btw, Stalin’s religion WAS Atheism. Just like Pol Pot’s and Mao’s.
Sayet really nails why liberals hate America and Israel and everything good in the world and love and support everything bad in the world. It’s really a mental disorder…. Must really be a sad life living in a country you hate so much.
Isreal can win the gun fight but will that actually do them any good. Not unless they kill them all and that is the bleep of it because these people do not learn.
#76 – FuckUp
We don’t hate America and Israel, we only hate fuckups like you and that droning BigNose with his idiotic thesis that liberals hate America.
If we really hated America, we would have supported what Dumbya did after 9/11, and let Bin Laden skip gaily off to the dialysis center while tearing the United States apart with his vain, pointless trophy war.
The following statements should be the end of this thread (although I know it wont).
1)If Israel lays down its guns, more Israelis will die.
2) If Hamas lays down its guns (and rockets) people will live in peace.
Someone needs to lock up Mustard. He’s just this side of silly.
>accepted the existence of Israel. What he did not accept was the continued occupation of land by Israel
Well that sums things up nicely.
If the Jews just don’t occupy any land at all, the Middle East Muslims will accept the existence of Israel. Just wipe it off the map, you might say.
73
Israel is not going anywhere…
Well, frankly it doesn’t bother me at all. In fact, I have very little interest in the region at all except academic. The arguments on both sides are valid and long and deep and rich. But, as Ben Gurion said “We have taken their country”. After that, every other excuse is academic.
I believe that Israel will dominate and oppress the Palestinians in totality. No peace will be the outcome though. There will always be a resistance. And then the Jews will have their Civil War. Moderates vs Fundies.
83,
Who the hell is crying about them? What is with people here that take things so personally it’s like you’re catching me boning your mother from behind… again.
#84–Bonehead==you’ve been crying about it. Reversing your stupidity at the end doesn’t alter your failure of analysis.
You quote Ben Gurion: “We have taken their country”. After that you cry with big crocodile tears: “every other excuse is academic.”
There is no “excuse.” Your word choice reveals your hypocrisy.
You further reveal your aggressive propaganda malfeasance by saying: “The arguments on both sides are valid—“==NO, THEY ARE NOT. Its more complicated, but I will restate the bottom line: There is no argument, just power. You can rail against the tide coming in twice a day, but that doesn’t change the tide coming in twice a day. Live, learn, adapt to it since thats the way its going to be.
Named–still a dope, caught trying to hide who/what he is.
85,
You quote Ben Gurion: “We have taken their country”. After that you cry with big crocodile tears: “every other excuse is academic.”
What crocodile tears? I don’t have any interest in that region except academic. You might have missed that point, so I’ll restate it for you and your anger.
And yes, the arguments one both sides are valid… and yes, might makes right. But, if Israel and it’s supports (and Palestinians and their supporters for that matter) make reasons and those reasons are brought up for explanation of the situation, well, apparently there IS more than just power. So, in your world whoever has the biggest gun wields the scepter. Rome had the biggest guns at one time.
#86–named==after running into interference for posting pro Arab position, you try to gain cover by posing as being above the fray and neutral. You actually aren’t that dumb, just a poser who is revealed.
You say: “So, in your world whoever has the biggest gun wields the scepter. Rome had the biggest guns at one time. /// Its not “my world” dope, it is THE WORLD. Rome had no more right to Israel than the tribes there at the time==and YES they held it by having the biggest guns. Want to fight Rome?==Welcome to Masada.
Now, Israel has the guns and the Palestinians want to fight.==Welcome to Gaza.
Rinse and repeat. What we see is the issue is all about POWER and nothing to do with “rights” or “justice” or history.
Israel will fall when it loses its fight. Palestinians will lose all interim struggles. Peace will come in 100 years when they unite to fight against the invasion from India. Then India will win or lose based on their power.
See how reality works? Now, get back to your prayer rug.
87,
Pro Arab posting? When did I say the Arabs were right? I might have said the Israeli’s were wrong… and that would be an accurate statement. In fact, I don’t think I’ve even mentioned the Arabs. Palestinians are a nation of people.. and in that nation are jews, muslims and christians. Of course, you’re limited understanding of humanity indicates that you are incapable of recognizing that. Brown = Muslim for you.
Yes, Israel has US guns. Not their own. They are fighting a war through proxy… US proxy. You Americans are funding and supporting that war directly. So, in effect, the Israeli conflict IS America’s conflict… And how does it help America in any way? If you truly believe it is a regional dispute, WHY does America have to fund it? And justify it. And support it.
90,
If bobbo says power is everything then I can say perception is paramount. The perception is that the US enables these events with their support militarily, politically and economically. THat is the reality of the perception. Deal with it.
#50 & 76 Fedup, nice video. If anyone wants to see the thought patterns of liberals objectively deconstructed and thoughtfully analyzed, obviously Evan Sayet is the perfect person to watch. In Sayet’s eyes, liberals are evil by design and intent, purposely and knowingly trying to tear down anything that is good, right, and successful. At one point, my mind drifted away for a second, and when I re-focused I thought he must be talking about Satan. Nope, it turned out that he was still talking about liberals.
It’s good to know that if anyone hates liberals with every fiber of their being and wants to talk about their hatred at length, the best venue to find a receptive audience is at the Heritage Foundation.
Ground forces just moved into Gaza. Israeli tank crews are using Hamas terrorists to grease their tank treads…
#91–named==you can say whatever you want, just as you do. But HISTORY shows the truth. Unbiased, uncaring, TRUTH.
Hitler had the perception that he could take Russia before winter set in. The POWER of Russia proved him wrong. In fact WAR is the greatest test of “perception.” I think you have fallen in love with your own propaganda? You might quibble in your way and say Russia was weak and that it was an early cold winter that beat Hitler====and what difference would that make? Same with US Support. If its part of the picture, it is valid.
In fact, being a US Proxy is a major reason why Israel just doesn’t eradicate Gaza/Palestine. Israel is afraid USA would cut off aid and after a few years, the remaining Arabs could well attack in numbers again. Israel will only get one loss before returning to a wandering tribe in the desert.
Well, you certainly need a few more years in propaganda school. Just not subtle enough in your nonsense. I hope your masters don’t see this FAIL on your part.
95
you can say whatever you want, just as you do. But HISTORY shows the truth. Unbiased, uncaring, TRUTH.
Who said History is written by the victor?
Do you really believe that HISTORY is UNBIASED? If so, you are obviously deranged.
As Tacitus said… They created a wasteland and called it peace.
Throughout HISTORY there have been writings that have been proven to be false. Turkey said there was no Armenian genocide. Unbiased?
Various people have denied the holocaust of the jews happened. Unbiased? Stalin “photoshopped” people out of history. Unbiased?
How far back do you want to go before you agree that HISTORY is one of the most manipulated and BIASED records. From a very basic standpoint between two opponents, if you take a “historical” record of the two from their own view points, do you honestly believe that they will be identical? LULZ.
In fact, being a US Proxy is a major reason why Israel just doesn’t eradicate Gaza/Palestine. Israel is afraid USA would cut off aid and after a few years, the remaining Arabs could well attack in numbers again.
Ummmm… no. Israel knows America loves them. In fact, every US Presidential candidate and VP candidate goes before the AIPAC to ensure that they understand how deep and strong their love for Israel and their government goes. It’s mandatory. Watch Obama before them. Listen to Biden and Palin proclaim their love for them. No other nation in the world is mentioned WITH LOVE as Israel is. Do you really believe Israel is worried about American divestment? If so, why have the dozens of UN resolutions against Israel just been vetoed by the US regardless of the content? The US is the bankroller for Israel.
For a “western atheist” (is that different from, say, a south eastern atheist?) you sure know your tribes.
94,
Reality BE damned. If not, American Idol wouldn’t be more important that the US presidential election. In fact, American’s might actually have an understanding of history rather than a perceptions that the US is the centre of the universe…
94
Tell me, do you percieve the braveness of Hamas when they use women and children as shields or do you only go with the percieved “innocent casualties” Hamas projects? where do you buy this “US is the root of all evil in the world” kool-aid?
When did I mention ANY of that? Oh, that’s right… I didn’t. What I did say is that the actions of the US in support of Israel are PERCEIVED to be analogous to being Israel’s accomplice. Do you not agree with that?
As for the US is the root of all evil… don’t be glib. The people of a country are not the government of a country any longer. A government can be as evil as it wants and STILL not reflect the will of the people. You’re extrapolation is akin to me claiming that red light cameras save children, and if you don’t like red light cameras you like killing children. Which you probably do.
#96–named. I wonder if you really don’t understand, or think you are clever enough to twist away?
Lots of “history” is intially wrong and corrected, and vice versa.
The big facts are what I was obviously referring to: Germany Lost WW2 or do you think otherwise?
If “Victors write the History”==you are admitting there are victors. The history you obviously refer to is breast beating propaganda to encourage the next generation of cannon fodder==history like “our land was stolen from us.”
Amusing how relevant “context” slips away from your polemic. Lapsing into one nation “loving” another nation is beyond the pale.
98,
So, if I understand correctly, so long as you win history is “right”? God, you are such a simpleton.
History is corrected occasionally, but rarely. In fact, some people in the US still believe that Grenada was a threat to the US. Has that been corrected in US History books yet?
And your big facts are Germany Lost WW2? Holy crap, you have got some serious issues! Of course Germany won. Don’t you recall what Churchill was fighting against? Germany was the fascist power of state and corporations and the UK was the nation of “shop keepers.” So, 70 years on, who won? The shop keepers or the corporation? Or is that a little too deep for you?
#99–named==you had some clever obfuscations there for a while, but you couldn’t carry the water.
Update: Over 30 Hamas terrorists killed in 1st few minutes of ground offensive.
100,
I am jealous that you got post 100 I must admit.
So, tell me bobbo… what makes you so angry about this situation? I’m pretty passive about the whole thing because it’s not within the borders of my country. I DO appreciate the ramifications of global countries fucking up the world, but it’s hard for me to get my knickers in a twist like you and pedro… So, explain it to me? When you look at Paddy-o, you can see him with his jar of pig fat on the side and his penis in his greased hand… I don’t get that vibe from you though.
BTW, according to my parameters, Germany DID win WW2. Took them a lot longer than the 7 years the war was in action though…