Chinese carmakers SAIC and Dongfeng have plans to acquire GM and Chrysler, China’s 21st Century Business Herald reports today. [A National Enquirer the paper is not. It is one of China’s leading business newspapers, with a daily readership over three million.] The paper cites a senior official of China’s Ministry of Industry and Information Technology– the state regulator of China’s auto industry– who dropped the hint that “the auto manufacturing giants in China, such as Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC) and Dongfeng Motor Corporation, have the capability and intention to buy some assets of the two crisis-plagued American automakers.” These hints are very often followed with quick action in the Middle Kingdom. The hints were dropped just a few days after the same Chinese government gave its auto makers the go-ahead to invest abroad.
Hmmm… if this happens, would the bailout/loan still happen?
Thanks to McCullough.
Could the assets be located in China, or some other country besides the US. GM has a joint venture with SAIC and Wuling Motors to produce the Wuling brand. SAIC-GM-Wuling was founded in 2002 and sold over 500,000 vehicles in 2007. SAIC owns 50.1%, GM 34% and Wuling 15.9% of the joint venture.
China is about to crash and burn. When the Chinese New Year, January 26, comes there will be massive layoffs in China.
Paddy-O: Toyota deals with Japan’s tax system and it is worse than the US. And companies still have to pay taxes when operating in this country, whether it is based here or not. And if the tax burden were so bad, Toyota and other foreign-based companies wouldn’t operate here. The US tax burden is overblown considering all the loopholes built it. People blow taxation out of proportion. In other countries, where there isn’t the same tax burden, you have payoffs to government officials. Thrown in substandard supporting infrastructure and the benefits of a low tax burden are negated. Point is, the difference isn’t nearly as bad as it is being portrayed. Union wages in a globalized industry, on the other hand, is the real problem.
Hmm, The fictionalized Blue Sun American/Chinese culture blend as seen in Firefly/Serenity don’t seem so far fetched now does it?
# 34 Bruno said, “Paddy-O: Toyota deals with Japan’s tax system and it is worse than the US.”
Japan’s top corp rate is 30%, US 39%
Try again.
Paddy-O: You must have missed the part about US loopholes. Try again.
Why buy junk with a bunch of bad contracts with their labor force from top to bottom and a product line that bleeps?
They did buy the computers though or at least the name for a while….
They might pick up a few people that are worth thier pay checks…
#11, #36 – Paddy O’Pinocchio
>>China has lower corp tax & 0% Cap gains tax.
>>China wants businesses, the U.S. Gov’t doesn’t.
>>Japan’s top corp rate is 30%, US 39%
>>Try again.
Ah, O’Pinocchio. I go away for a little while, and you’re back to your old nose-extending tricks. Are you allergic to the truth?
The top statutory tax rate in the United States is THRITY FIVE percent, not 39%.
The actual number makes no nevermind, as no business that can afford an accountant actually pays anything close to that. The averate de facto tax rate for US businesses is 13.4%.
The tax code provides so many deductions, credits, and other mechanisms by which corporations can reduce their taxes, only a moron would pay 35%.
In fact, the effective corporate tax in the US is lower than average for developed nations (corporations in 19 of the member states of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development paid 16.1 percent of their profits in taxes between 2000 and 2005, on average, compared to 13.4% for the US).
So put a sock in it with your right-wing extremist “liberate business of its oppresive tax burden” bullshit, won’t you?
It’s YOU who should “try again”. LOL. ROTFLMAO. LOLOLOLOLOLOL.
TIA
The Chinese girl in the picture would be a lot more attractive if she didn’t have that leprosy outbreak emanating from her right armpit.
39,
It’s spelled MORAN. You’re welcome.
40,
It’s not leprosy, it’s “skin art”.
The corporate rate here is under 30%. 28.6 last time I checked.
#41: as much as i disagree with #39 Mr.Mustard’s comments most of the time. as DU regular, i like what he adds to the debates here in DU, -and do, on occasion agree with him. -that being said..
#41 -i hate grammar police forum trolls, they have nothing to add to the debate so they find fault with your grammar as a (supporting?) argument..
with that said before i add to the debate in my next post…
#41 Named said,
“39, It’s spelled MORAN. You’re welcome.”
no..
its spelled MORON you troll..
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moron)
-s
-s
furthermore #41
what Paddy-O said in #11 is simple truth,
-regardless of pandering, loopholes or any other
crap used to support thoughts to the contrary.
The EPA and insane UAW (amongst other unions) pay scales on top of full benefits and pensions, have helped lead the exodus of jobs overseas.
-s
#26: Agreed!
Chinese Automakers buying GM and Chrysler? Of course. It’s just a matter of time. No one else has enough money just burning a hole in their pockets.
But when the Chinese check the books and see how much it costs to pay union wages and health benefits, as well as conform with thousands of onerous US environmental and labor law provisions, I’m gonna guess that the new Chinese owners will do what they did with a couple of steel mills here: strip the mills for parts, ship ’em all overseas back to China, and rebuild the assembly lines there. In China.
Not only will the Chinese get the assembly lines and machinery for a song, but they’ll be rid of all the horrendous expenses of running a factory in the United States.
The only winners in this scenario are the Chinese.
#41 – Named: Point 1
>>It’s spelled MORAN. You’re welcome.
Aw, give me a break. Not everyone has fully incorporated that guy’s sign into their everyday lexicon. Point taken, though.
#41 – Named: Point 2
>>It’s not leprosy, it’s “skin art”.
Ugh. That nodular infestation stretching from her armpit to her bicep is “skin art”? Looks more like a communicable disease to me. I’d sue the tattoo artist for that disfigurement. Even regular tats on women are not all that appealing (unless you’re in a motorcycle gang), but one that looks like inflamed lymph nodes gone berserk?? Yeccchhh!! I’d be surprised if she could get anyone to touch her without a hazmat suit.
We’re Flucked People! Flied Rice on the house.
#44 – soundwash
>>what Paddy-O said in #11 is simple truth,
>>-regardless of pandering, loopholes or any
>>other crap used to support thoughts to the
>>contrary.
But Paddy O’Pinocchio didn’t say anything in #11 about any of the stuff you mentioned (UAW, EPA, pensions, benefits, etc).
He said the corporate tax rate in the US was higher than in other countries.
And that is simply NOT true. Of course, untruths are O’Pinocchio’s stock in trade. That’s why he’s called O’Pinocchio. Get it?
further om the Capital Gains Tax arguments
Subject: Tax Code – Tax Rates
http://invest-faq.com/articles/tax-cap-gains-rates.html
—
also: (most interesting)
Capital gains tax (listing most all producing nations)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax
#49 – soundwash
>>also: (most interesting)
>>Capital gains tax (listing most all
>>producing nations)
Yep, that was darned interesting. I’ll admit I didn’t check up on the second part of Paddy O’Furniture’s claim that “China has lower corp tax & 0% Cap gains tax.“. I figured that debunking the first half was enough, and just about everything Paddy O’Pinocchio says is bullshit anyway, so I assumed the second part was also. Your very interesting link proved my assumption correct:
**************************************
China
Flat 10% of capital gains taxed with traded equities being exempt.
**************************************
Yer batting 1000, Paddy O’Pinocchio. I think if you ever told the truth, you’d explode into a ball of flames.
-#48: -got it. while i know this is an invalid point relativly speaking, i’m goin to take what i know of Paddy-O’s postings to date, that he is assuming the regular knowledgeable DU posters here have some semblance of intellegince and insight on the matter. -and really shouldn’t have to spell it out. (leaps of faith here i know, but still)
that is why i added (before i saw your post) some quick scans on capital gains tax listings.. while wiki 50% of the time, should be taken with a grain of salt..some of its references raised the validity a bit…and the tax rates i found with further digging can further help validate his “general point.
(“general point” -yes, a sin i know in forum posting,but you get my drift.)
-s
#51 – soundwash
>>and really shouldn’t have to spell it out.
Ah but you do.
What the hell are you trying to say? I missed the point of the first paragraph of your post. If you meant that Paddy O’Pinocchio shouldn’t have to spell it out, well, that really doesn’t make any difference. Whether he’s terse and cryptic, or expansive and bloviating, the essence of what he says is bullshit. Or “lies”, to be a little less diplomatic (but more accurate). He’s got axes to grind, and he has no qualms about just making stuff up out of whole cloth to support his arguments.
It’s not for nothing he’s called O’Pinocchio.
i noticed the 10% figure as well…however going down the list..regardless of the exaggerated 0% claim…the listing does give precedence for mass exodus of jobs exported out of the US…many countries lie far below US CGT…regardless of said (US) loopholes.
( i i still have not gotten my 2¢ to the original post in yet…)
-and yes..its till does not diminish the facts, i know. (vs against 0% claim)
minor aside: if the tax is allowed to expire as projected..its sure as hell is not going to help.
(esp given some of what obama claims he plans to do
to bring jobs back home..esp given that fact that our industrial capacity has been pretty much destroyed. cant wait to see his what he’s going to do to generate 5mil new jobs at home..(other than *rumored* civilian CO2 police squads and the
like..)
-s
#52 point taken on the axe to grind and lies.
if your going to provide numbers to support a claim
they should at least be close.
yeah, i kinda went half baked on my reply in the 1st paragraph..however..without knowing his true intentions of that particular post.. i think understand his methodology (as flawed in this case it may be)
he provided brief statement that on the whole, is valid.. (i do not find it complete bullshit)
he gave a statement that should cryptically (to expand on your comment a bit) *infect* curiosity and a mission of discovery on the part of the reader to validate or at least expand on his claims..
while you may find this sort of melodramatic crap the wrong way to go about entering into a debate. i find it a positive asset in the larger picture of the discussion.
my comments, on occasion, are meant to cause the reader to the very same thing.
thoughts?
-s
NOW… my 2¢ on the authors topic/post.
1st off, I’m nothing more than a self-educated armchair analyst in economic matters. (I fix PCs for a living since ’93. – sound engineer 8yrs prior to that)
2nd… we should be unequivocal be saying “HELL F’n NO” to any and all bailouts proposed by congress or that king of corruption Paulson and the other crook Beneke… the conflicts of interest with all three alone should have stopped the appointments dead in their tracks..
Anyone w/a f’n clue knows that these two were put in place specifically as last chance money grab/transfer of assets to steal the taxpayers blind and give the Fed and US treasury even more treasonous, anti-constitutional power over our government before the current corrupt admin leaves office. (As well as to shore up the incoming Clinton era appointments) – as well as consolidate the Central Banks power over the world (and world assets let alone US assets.)
That being said, no matter how much outcry from us patriots (including me), – done properly this is almost the only option the big three have if they want to save any hope of “The Brand” and it’s workers.
Let them go bankrupt so they can clean the books… and preferably allow US based NON-BANK entities to pickup the fire sale assets. (Most likely to fail anyway… China gets the bid if no US Based corps want the task.)
Or let the Chinese acquire them, fire all top level management, – the dinosaurs/stagnate *Federal* oil patch boys/liaisons currently in control need to be dumped… you know, the ones that killed the GM EV1 back in the late 90’s, I think.)
Keep some mid-level management crews (that know wtf they’re doing) to help with the transition and to keep a complete revolt of the UAW workers from happening.
Due to the coming depression, (compliments of the SEC, congress/greenspan/paulson/both parties, Clinton and Bush) (plus The Fed starting in 1913) give the UAW workers left over a choice: tell them that they’ll have to take a complete restructure (read cuts) of benefits, OT and pay scales or lose their jobs outright… be it through a take-over or C11.
And to put some more fire in their blood (and incentive), tell them they’ll be replaced by currently out of work US Chinese/Asian citizens if they bitch.
That’s right, screw politically correct liberally divisive affirmative action laws that allow complete morons to get work over ***qualified*** workers… be they white, black or plaid.
I’m sick and tired of bullshit racial quotas that ruined this country and allowed uneducated lazy-ass idiots to get a job over someone who actually graduated at least high school (that’s pre-dumbed-down, outcome/test based high school graduates) – that can actually read at a 12th grade level… someone who is *actually* qualified.
The elite hard left in this country is just as responsible for driving jobs out of our country and destroying our infrastructure (for reasons in part, stated above) as the right is (esp the recent neocon-right which were just ultra-left elite zealots that had nothing to do with traditional conservatism) for over-deregulating key industries in an effort to offset and allowing for multinational monopolies to form.
They have been playing us, the American people, against each other for decades.
Lastly… the writing has been on the wall for almost seven decades.
Yet the bought and paid for media, professional economic “media analysts” as well as the *current administration, congress and incoming obama administration* ignore the obvious lessons recent history gave us a front row seat to.
Read the following “history lesson” -an article from 1999 that chronicles the economic “Rise and Fall of the Japanese Miracle” – the parallels to what is currently happening (and about to happen) in America is just too obvious to ignore… and congress and the incoming administration have the nerve to serve up the same failed strategies in the months to come.
Read and Take heed:
The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Miracle
9/20/1999
http://mises.org/story/298
-s
-crap…sorry about the grammatical errors in #55.
i thought pasted the final, triple read proof out of my text editor.
-s
Has anyone else here seen the YouTube video that shows the crash test dummy eating a portion of a Chinese car’s dashboard? I can expect the Chinese to bring that kind of engineering and QC to our American brands if they acquire any of them. It’ll be like when Seagate and Maxtor fused, making me fear a once-revered name in HDDs, Seagate.
#57 Hey the US doesn’t need help to make crappy poorly designed cars. How about the Pinto or the Corvair? If I think for a while I could name more, but you get the idea.
#53 – soundwash
>>the listing does give precedence for mass
>>exodus of jobs exported out of the US…many
>>countries lie far below US CGT…regardless of
>>said (US) loopholes
Well, I don’t know if I’d say that “many” lie “far below”. There are a few places, like Estonia, Barbados, and Malaysia, that have no capital gains tax; most other countries are comparable to the 15% long-term CGT in the US, ranging between 10% and 25%.
I’d be interested to know what percentage of the average US business’s profits come from capital gains, and just how much of an effect the difference between the Chinese 10% CGT and the US 15% CGT makes in their decision to move to China (or to India, with its 10% – 40% CGT), rather than stay in the US. Not a whole heck of a lot, I’d imagine.
I’m sure not going to ask Paddy O’Pinocchio, you can be sure of that.
I was never offered a bailout when I didn’t want my car that I was still making payments on.
There should be things our government does for us, but helping companies that have bad business models is not the answer.
I bought a chinese Roketa scooter (80 mpg/ 9$ month for insurance)for $800, I was looking for an American made scooter for the same price, but couldn’t find one. Heck I would have payed a little more for an American version.
Good, the Chinese can have them. There will just be another “Big 3”.