It used to be that gays were in the closet. Now it seems that people who voted yes on California Proposition 8 are the ones in the closet. If you admit that you voted yes on 8 to define marriage as heterosexual only, then you are labeled a bigot and a hater. So you can’t tell your friends you voted yes on 8 because they won’t talk to you anymore. And there’s no having a civil conversation with gay marriage supporters to address legitimate reasons why someone might vote yes on 8.
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#163, Agreed. No expert am I either.
I just wanted to throw that question out there and see what the response was.
#67 & #116
The bottom line is the whether or not you believe in the Bible or not, homosexuality and gay marriage is wrong.
#67 If you look at the King James version of the Bible in Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain…, to know or knew in both the Sodom and Gomorrah and this one mean “to have intercourse”. So daughters or not they wanted to engage in homosexual activity with men b/c you notice they didn’t take the women.
#116 I have read the Bible for myself and listened to many different people teaching and preaching from it. As far as interpretation, it seems very clear in and out of context that homosexuality is sin/wrong. You never had to choose b/c God made you the way you are. It is a lie to think that homosexuality is OK that is why people struggle with it. They know in their heart of hearts it is wrong but choose to believe that that is the answer. There are several meaning to Hebrew and Greek words in the Bible but the message is clear. My hope and prayer is that God will bring someone into your life that will be a better example of what a true Christian is.
No amount of arguing or stating of opinions will make a difference until you get a glimpse of who He is for yourself. My challenge to you is ask Him to do that for you…what can it hurt.
#165 DBo
Make a non biblical argument why being gay is wrong. You have only stated it as a fact without any support that is based in the real world only on your faith.
I understand what “knew” meant. My point was that Lot offered up his own daughters to be gang raped to protect God’s angels. Clearly a simple sign of devotion to God since angels, being supernatural, would not need protection. My point being if that is what God needs to feel good about himself then he can sod off.
I was trying to illustrate that using biblical reference to support your moral position as a position of fact is a slippery slope, especially in the Old Testament.
#166 Jezcoe
Since everything was created by the words of God and he is the expert on all things, it only seems right to use the Bible. That being said here is a non-biblical argument…nature. You don’t see things in nature demonstrating homosexual behaviors. Except to assert dominance which in the humans is not the issue. There is male and female with some exceptions I will grant. The vast majority of nature has male and female and they are drawn to each other for one reason b/c they were made to be that way.
The real dispute here is marriage and whether or not gays should be able participate in it. I think with so many states passing laws to prohibit gay marriage there is no question what is right. I have a difficult time thinking that so many are wrong about this issue. Many people who may not believe in God see that gay marriage is wrong. They understand the importance of family, mother, father & children. If that is distorted then the whole balance is gone and we begin to see things happening that were never intended (i.e gender confusion & AIDS).
#167 Dbo
Making your argument of how nature intends things to be following your statement of faith greatly weakens your position. There are many cases of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom. It is quite common. But to use your case that everything is created by the grace of God then that creation should be perfect. Especially in the animal kingdom where there is no free will. Non humans would not be subject to tests of faith and accordingly would not be given the temptation of a same sex partner.
So many are wrong on the issue of gay marriage just as so many have been wrong about so many things in the past. The majority rule does not always equal an ethical right. I know of no atheist who see gay marriage as wrong. Yes the family is important, I mean who in there right mind would say it is not, but marriage is not just about the nuclear family. What would you say about my own marriage? I am an atheist and we have no children and we do not plan to have any.
I don’t understand the balance issue that you raise. Without gay people we would still have gender confusion and AIDS. The bottom line is that a certain group of people want, like yourself, want to force their ideas on a minority that is based only upon faith. It is not about facts, ethics or equal rights among all.
#168
God did create us perfect but man sinned and fell from grace along with the whole world. Hence the reason that so many things have been messed up in the past and will continue to be until Jesus comes back.
As far as your marriage, there is nothing wrong with it. Lots of people don’t have children, an awesome gift BTW, for various reasons. Hopefully you are giving to others the love that you would share with them.
The one thing that always interests me is that people seem to be able to dispute the Bible, which you have some knowledge of, by bringing out scriptures and don’t really get the message. Basically, God set up certain principles and if followed thing will go a certain way(i.e. blessing) if not curses. The balance issue is that as we allow people to think that being gay, gay marriage, and sex outside of marriage are ok then we get the curses on us. Where does it stop as far as what is ok and what is not. There are no gray areas just black and white. If it is ok to be gay then it is ok to steal or kill. Truth is truth. And believing any differently only leads to more bad things. I guess being an atheist means believing in something would be impossible. Otherwise, your whole system is worthless.
This is not a death and destruction rant, just reality.
#165
> The bottom line is the whether or
> not you believe in the Bible or
> not, homosexuality and gay
> marriage is wrong.
No sir. You might as well claiming that a marriage between a white woman and a black man is wrong. *Any* two (or more) people can commit their lives to each other. That has been happening for millennia. What is recent is the notion that the State is permitted to give benefits to certain types of unions that it deems “right”.
I suggest that you need to broaden your knowledge beyond the Bible and its mythology. You should start researching the dozens of other creation myths from other cultures. You will find monogamy to be missing from most of them.
> You never had to choose b/c
> God made you the way you are.
Is it not true in your beliefs that God made everything? That means he/she/it intentionally made people with an innate desire to copulate with people of their own gender. Given that, we can postulate a handful of possible motivations:
1. Incompetence. He was hitting the bottle that day and just screwed up when he made homosexuals.
2. Sadistic. He enjoys watching the suffering of people he intentionally created in a way that he knew they could not abide by the rules he set down.
3. Bad editors. God’s word was misinterpreted and he never meant that homosexuality is bad.
4. Fiction/Societal planning. It was all made up by elders to gain position and encourage procreation in a struggling new religion.
> No amount of arguing or
> stating of opinions will
> make a difference until
? you get a glimpse of who
> He is for yourself
Sure. You setup an non-biased, repeatable, non-anecdotal experiment whereby we can even verify “he” exists and we’ll go from there.
#168
> God did create us perfect
> but man sinned and fell
> from grace along…
Nonsense. Beyond the fact that this does not explain birth defects or genetic disorders, humans have plenty of flaws that are purely physiological and thus have nothing to do with choice. Homosexuals fall into this group. The vast majority of homosexuals have had those desires from a young age.
> The one thing that always
> interests me is that people
> seem to be able to dispute the Bible,
> which you have some knowledge of,
> by bringing out scriptures and
> don’t really get the message.
A classic, but flawed argument. The core problem with your argument is that there is no authoritative source to determine what that message “really” is. Many churchmen have presented different interpretations over the years. Furthermore, in the case of the New Testament, the text was written decades after the person on whom it is based died making its reliability very suspect.
Many people have read the same text and derived different meaning from the same words. Atheists tend to take the words on face value and when done that way, the deity in the Old Testament is a monster and in the New Testament is at best a politician or at worst a monster.
Dbo
Being an atheist means that I simply believe in one less God than you do. I believe that I and I alone am accountable for my actions, good or bad, and it is not attributed to any sort of spirit. I have just one chance and one chance alone to do good in this world for my own reasons. There is no later rewards, a great candy store in the sky, there is only the here and the now. So it is not nothing that I believe. It is very real.
My problem with using faith to justify civil rights is that the bible is inconsistent in laying out what God wants or needs or whatever it is that is laid down as his law. Passages in Leviticus forbid the eating of crustaceans, yet you see very few Christians willing to ban the lobster industry. Followers if the bible generally do not live by God’s laws that are an inconvenience.
I have no idea what curses you talk of. The problems that people create are no acts of God but are ones that we put upon ourselves. It is because we are imperfect, flawed, stupid, and greedy at times. In a word we are simply human.
Equating pleasurable acts between consensual adults as to leading to theft and murder is just plain stupid. One is a private act hurting no one (barring some of the very real negative effect of adultery, unwanted pregnancy, etc, but it is not like religion has been very good at stopping those things) the others are denials of property and life. As in your rights end at the tip of my nose.
Black and white thinking is very hard to justify in the real world. The world is nothing if not various shades of grey. That is what makes it such a cool place to be.
#171
The Bible says that we were created in the image of God. As God is perfect so were we until Adam and Eve disobeyed and lost the relationship they had with Him. That is when the imperfections came. We were never perfect in ourselves but with God and our renewing of our relationship with Him do we work through all that this world has become. The Bible says that when we become born again our former self is gone to God and we are a new creation. We are not perfect b/c we are human but we were created perfect.
#170
This is not a race issue. Not sure why you brought up black/white marriage. Homosexuality is the issue here and whether or not to permit any kind of lawful union between gays. We have become so tolerant of these gray areas [#172] that our country has forgotten what we were established on…God’s Word, the Bible. I will admit the there are areas in the Bible that we no longer practice (i.e eating or not eating certain foods) and there are legitimate reasons to continue those things. The deal is that we now live under a different covenant as Christians than they did back then. Jesus bridged the gap for us and created a way for us to have direct relationship with Him. The laws and rules are still good but the relationship is important. The rules are easy if you remember two things. Love God, Love people.
#170
To think that God is schizophrenic is absurd. He is motivated by Love. He did not create gays that is a lie from the devil as with the rest of your list. If people think God is crazy then it is easier for them not to believe in Him or justify things. Here is the truth.
Satan = Steal, Kill & Destroy
God = Life More Abundantly
Gay marriage is an effort to destroy the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. Pretty clear whose agenda that is.
#172
Curses was a strong word for consequences. That is what happens when we deal too long in gray areas or disregard the black and white. God said do not have sex outside of marriage so when you do there are consequences, STDs, unwanted pregnancy, etc. As far as equating murder and theft to homosexuality and other sexual sins, in God’s eyes they are equal. They are sin. We return to consequences again. One thing has different consequences than another. Stealing = Imprisonment
Sex outside of marriage = too many to innumerate.
#172
If you believe in 1 less God than me then you believe in zero. There is only one God and He will hold us accountable for what we do. You do have one chance on this Earth and doing good is not enough. You must receive Jesus as your Savior and live for Him to the best of your ability. That is the way to make a difference. As far as a candy store in the sky, Heaven is way better than that. Better than you or I can imagine. Hell, on the other hand, is real and worse than we can imagine. There is a here and now and after that there is Heaven or Hell. Choose Jesus and Heaven awaits.
This conversation has built my faith and my family and I will be praying for each of you to come to a better understanding of who God is and how he thinks.
Again not a doom and gloom comment, just trying to shed some light on things.
Thanks.
Dbo
Ok where to begin. First I want to say that I would never dream of taking away what your beliefs are. It is your right to have control over your own thoughts. I object to setting public policy based on faith. Faith where no critical thinking has been applied.
I guess we start with Genesis. So you mean to tell me that evil is in the world because of what two people did countless generations ago? I have no say in it? That hardly seems fair. Also one of the great problems I have with the creation myth is where did Cain meet his wife? There is also the problem that a single breeding pair of humans (Adam and Eve) would be able to fill the earth with their offspring so rapidly. Just apply a little critical thinking to the creation myth and it falls apart as a truth and takes it rightful place as fiction.
Maybe the reason we are not perfect is that mankind was never perfect in the first place. We were never created but evolved to fill a niche in nature and inherited all the imperfections that nature could possibly give us.
Lev (11:10-12)
“And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.”
So no shrimp for you.
That is just one of the many of God’s laws in Leviticus (the one that talks about being gay) that modern Christians do not follow. How about the part about not shaving your beard.(Lev 19:27)
Or not wearing poly cotton blends (Lev 19:19) So of that is God’s law and you are breaking it then you are visiting curses upon yourself.
I do not have to receive what I do not believe in. I do not have to fear a hell that does not exist and I do not have to gain a heaven that is not there. Thankfully we do not live in a theocracy. We can only make the laws of our land to be a fair to all as we can. Anything less is a sin towards humanity. You cannot use faith alone to make laws. You have to use reason, logic and fairness. Something that religion often lacks.
#173 (Part 1)
> The Bible says that we were created
> in the image of God…
So, people with birth defects or those that die at birth can blame Adam and Eve? You cannot seriously believe that. It is creation story, not the literal truth. Taken as the literal truth, the story is comically flawed as #174 pointed out. We are talking about imperfections that have nothing to do with choice. Is your deity so callous as to intentionally create flaws in humans that specifically precludes them from obey his/her/its supposed laws?
RE: Race
I bring up race because the comparison is apt. There is no more difference between the argument against a black man and a white woman marrying than there is for two gays marrying. Homosexuality is not really a choice. It is called “sexual preference” but that is really so the ignorant can get their head around the idea. It is an innate desire created at birth.
> Jesus bridged the gap for us
> and created a way for us to
> have direct relationship
> with Him
I have heard such nonsense from other Christians. What they conveniently omit is EXACTLY, PRECISELY which requirements no longer need be followed. Jesus is conveniently hazy on that point. That of course is up to interpretation. Who is to say that animal sacrifice should no longer be required? Who is to say that allowing gays to love is not a logical extension of your messiah’s message? Banning gays from marriage IS impeding people’s ability to love.
> To think that God is schizophrenic
> is absurd. He is motivated by Love
Really. So, how do you explain the Tsunami that killed thousands a year or two ago? How do you explain Katrina? How do you explain premature death by natural causes? How do you explain schizophrenia? How do you explain people born with innate desires contrary to that of your religion’s law? Is not your deity omnipotent? Is not your deity omniscient? How do you explain your Satan figure? Did he/she/it not create Satan? Is not evil bad? Did not your deity know well in advance of creating Satan that he would turn to evil? If not, then how is it that he/she/it is omniscient?
The vast majority of homosexuals are created from BIRTH. They had no control over those feelings. Did not your deity create everything? How can you claim that it is omnipotent and yet either powerless or unwilling to stop defects from your own vision of perfection over which no choice was ever made. Either your deity does not have the power to stop such evil or he/she/it is unwilling. If the later, then reiterate that said being, if it existed, is monstrous.
> Gay marriage is an effort to
> destroy the sanctity of marriage
Of what sanctity do you speak? From what religion? The world is made up of many religions and many deities. Furthermore, why care? Gays are committing to themselves in relationships akin to marriage everyday for hundreds of years. Has your “sanctity” changed at all? No sir. Fundamentally, Prop 8 is about whether the State can discriminate the benefits it provides based on the type of union.
#173 (Part II)
> God said do not have sex
> outside of marriage so
> when you do there
> are consequences
“He” supposedly said this in the Old Testament did “he” not? I thought you just said that all laws in the OT no longer needed to be heeded. Where does *Jesus* specifically said that gays may not marry or that restrictions on gay marriage are still in place?
RE: Consequences and “Stealing = Imprisonment”
Not exactly. In the OT, the price for stealing was losing your hand. Apparently, it is acceptable to ignore that one too.
> Sex outside of marriage
Actually, sex outside marriage was common in Biblical times. However, having a relationship with someone outside marriage was a not allowed.
> If you believe in 1 less God
> than me then you believe
> in zero.
Nothing getting past you. Indeed that is exactly what my friend meant however, the point you missed is that you are ok with dismissing Thor, Zeus, Ra, Sheba and a host of other deities based on logical and scientific reasoning but to dismiss the last one it too much for you. Fine. However, by the same token understand that you are dismissing other ideas based on your religion and that by far the best approach for everyone to live in civil fashion is to not let the State in any way get mixed up in religion. Banning gay marriage is just that. Is is PURELY based on one group of religious notions about what marriage should be. It is akin to banned communion because it is the serving of alcohol.
Forgetting that you are unable to provide any unbiased, repeatable evidence that your deity or that Jesus existed, you’re thinking is wholly clouded by your religion. You appear to be incapable of understanding that Prop 8 was a prime example of the majority trampling on the rights of the minority.
As I said before, hundreds if not thousands of years have gone by with homosexuals having relationships with one another albeit in the closet. Has your marriage sanctity changed? What do think it would change now simply because people want to stop the State from discriminating based on the tackle of their partner.
#169 Dbo
>>This is not a death and destruction rant,
>>just reality.
More like a horrible fantasy; a nightmare.
#174 & #175
Yes, God did create us perfect but with free will. He created us to walk in perfect relationship with Him. The problem came with the temptation that Adam and Eve gave into. By disobeying God they fell out of the relationship that they had. This is when all of the evil, Satan, was given reign over the earth. As I stated earlier God does not make the bad things of this world happen. He does not make people sick, make Tsunamis that kill thousands or make people gay. Remember I said God is Love and Love doesn’t do those things. There is a god of this world, Satan, and it is his job to do those things. God did create Satan but not to rule this earth. Satan thought he was better than God and decided to try to be God. So God cast him out of Heaven with 1/3 of the angels. Now he has made it his mission to do whatever he can to destroy God’s creation. This is the explanation for the bad in the world. Satan is evil, God cannot be evil b/c God is Love.
#175
Equating race to “sexual preference” is not an comparison at all. You are born whatever race you are born, the way God made you. Sexual preference is a choice. You use Scripture as a rebuttal to what I say which in and of itself ironic.(#174) If you don’t believe the Bible than you cannot possibly use it in a disagreement as support for you opinion. God says numerous times both in the OT and the NT that homosexuality is a sin. (Lev 20:13,1 Corinthians 6:9) If it were something that God created you with then it could not be a sin.
Animal sacrifice was for atonement of sins. We no longer have to practice that b/c Jesus was crucified for our sins. He paid the final price. Because He died on the cross and rose from the dead, we are living in a dispensation of grace. This means that if we do sin he is faith and just to forgive us of the sin and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. This doesn’t mean we can go on sinning. He has called us out of the darkness of the fall into light so that we can live in righteousness not b/c of what we do but b/c of what He did. This explains why we no long practice certain things. The deal is we need to do things in love. God gave us laws and rule to show us that we cannot do it of ourselves but only through him. [If you study carefully though you will see that our laws now are based on the 10 Commandments from God.] Love does not steal or kill or have affairs. God doesn’t care how you wear your hair or what you eat unless it interferes with your relationship with Him or it is harmful to you. He does say that our body is a temple and it should be treated as such. Sexual sin whether gay or straight is sin and harmful to you and your relationship with God. A relationship is ok outside marriage but when relationship equals sex outside marriage then it is wrong.
#176
Having gods of logic means that man made them. Worshiping logic and reason gets you nowhere. With that thinking mathematics could be a god. Great 1+1=2, this does not help you live your life. This does not help you with relationships. Logic and reason cannot explain people getting healed from terminal diseases, the blind seeing, cancer being cured and countless other miracles. Go to the graves of other heads of religion, see if they are still there. They are. Only Jesus was raised from the dead. He is the One,True,Living God. Any other thinking is a lie straight from hell. If Satan can get you to believe that there are all these ways to get to Heaven or all these other ways of believing he has neutralized the power that you have to change the world and your life through Christ. That is why preserving marriage as a man and a woman being joined together is so important. It was his first lie that put Adam and Eve out of the garden and out of relationship with God and he is still pursuing it to this day. Divorce and gay marriage are but avenues for him to break that important establishment. God will forgive these things. When that forgiveness comes it is then time to turn to Him and live right with the help of Jesus.
#177
Not sure what you mean by nightmare. Life through and in Christ is very far from a fantasy or nightmare. It is a wonderful thing.
What would it change to not allow gay marriage among other things? It would keep us from the consequences of sin which is death. The USA is a nation established on God’s Word. If we neglect the fact that our founding fathers knew how important it was to have God as part of our everyday life then we missed the reason this nation was established, a Christian nation. God is God not matter what and he has called us, Christians, to a higher standard. It is our, Christians, responsibility to make sure that you do everything in our power to let everyone know about Jesus and His saving grace. As part of that we have to defend His Word b/c we understand what is at stake, eternal life. That’s what the difference will be if we stand by and let marriage be distorted and let babies be killed.
#178
1. Is your deity omniscient? If he is, then free will is an illusion because he already knows what decisions you will make. If he is not, then that implies your deity has limitations. I direct you to the Riddle of Epicurus:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
2. You again brought up the creation myth. You do realize it is a myth right? Using that as evidence of your position is like using Harry Potter to prove that witches exist.
3. Did not your deity create everyone including birth defects, gay people, people with Downs Syndrome, MS and a host of other at birth maladies? These people had no choice in the way they came out. Homosexuality, in most cases, is NOT A CHOICE. Thinking that it is is why you fail to understand.
RE: You religious rant
First, nothing is better at showing Christian hypocrisy than the Bible itself. In fact, I find that most religious types have never actually read the Bible critically. For example, you quote from Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 6:9
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind”
Where does it say anything about homosexuality there? He merely says the “effeminate”. There are many gay people that are not effeminate. How does that explain butch lesbians?
Since we’re speaking of Corinthians, Paul also says that if you associate with Gentiles you associate with Devils:
“But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.”
Since you happen to like Leviticus, it also says:
“And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
So where does Jesus say that it is no longer necessary to punish adultery with death?
From what I can tell your deity of love is nothing of the sort (assuming it even exists). He punished those he didn’t like and hung his son up like a side of veal.
> Worshiping logic and reason
> gets you nowhere.
How can you possibly argue your position without logic? How can you possibly hope to convince anyone about anything relating to your deity without logic and reason? You might as well stomp your feet and hold your breath. Logic gave us a few things like the Internet, computers, microprocessors, television, modern medicine and pretty much every invention since the plow. What you are discussing is blind allegiance and ignorance.
At the very least, you have proven without question that people voted for Prop 8 solely because of religion and nothing else. In other words, people filled with ignorance and adherence to nonsensical religions are what killed Prop 8. As you have already admitted, it has nothing to do with logic or reason and thus nothing to do with the public benefit. You are welcome to believe what you wish but I would prefer if you didn’t vote. After all, if you don’t vote, “God’s will” will be done either way right? Isn’t voting a logical process? Why inject logic into your fantasy world of religion?
Btw, those two quotes are respectively:
1 Corinthians 10:20
Leviticus 20:10
Dbo
My point all along in this is that if you hold the bible up as inerrant and the direct word of God for all to live by then you run into to some severe problems. You do so especially when you reference Leviticus that has all sorts of rules and laws that no one that I know of but the Hassidic Jews live by. If you do not live by those same rules then aren’t you living in offense to God? Put down your bacon! That trip to Red Lobster is the direct ticket to hell! No more blended fabrics or shaving! How does Gad want you farm the land? Well it is right here in Leviticus. I mean really? If you hold up the rules against Homosexuals by quoting Leviticus then you have painted yourself into a corner by not following all the other parts of the book. I have no idea if you do or not, but I think I can make a pretty good guess.
The absolute word of God in Genesis also falls apart when you think about it terms of modern knowledge and science. If you choose to look at Adam and Eve as anything more than a myth then you have to throw away all the provable information on biology, geology, astrophysics, and well basically all modern scientific understanding. Everything that you enjoy is become some human came up with it, by understanding nature, and created it. Not God.
So I will pose to you my original challenge. Because we do not live in a theocracy, make a rational non-religious argument on why Homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. I make my pro gay marriage point by looking at the protection of property, children (if you do not think that gay couples have children you are deluding yourself) and liberty by two people who enter a contract and should have that contract arbitrated under the laws of the State should anything happen. Just like the State looks at a marriage between Straight people. Why should they be treated any different when religion is not part of the State?
Remember keep it non religious. I don’t think you can.
Dbo
It is also a complete myth that this is a Christian nation. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists. I think that Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Madison, Monroe, Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine would disagree with you. So like some biblical Scholarship (Jesus wasn’t the only one brought back from death, three guesses on who else was. I know and I am an atheist.) you need a good remedial course in U.S history.
#179
1. He is omniscient. He knows what you are going to do and the beauty is He lets you, free will. You are free to worship Him or not. In all of us there is an empty spot that we try to fill in all sorts of ways. In the end He is the only one that can make you whole.
2. Creation is no myth. It is reality. If you can honestly look at a baby and not be in awe of the complexity of forming a human being and realize that it is not by accident but God’s perfect design than I’m not sure what might convince you, other than an intervention by God Himself. Which He has been known to do on occasion.
3. If you look at earlier comments and read them I have explained that God does not create “birth defects, gay people, people with Downs Syndrome, MS and a host of other at birth maladies”. The first portion of #178 discusses where those things come from. The awesome thing is that God will heal people of those issues and is able.
4. Your quote from Corinthians still applies to all homosexual activity. Look at all the translations “effeminate” equals homosexuality. “Butch lesbians” are in the same category they are behaving contrary to how they were created.
4a. Leviticus 20:10, death for adultery was called for in OT times. Remember that I also stated that we live under grace and we can be forgiven of our sins. Read John 8:1-11 that will give you insight into Jesus’ heart. I am not saying to go and sin or break laws b/c you will be forgiven. We still have laws that we have to obey and if you don’t expect consequences but know that God will forgive. People are usually the ones who are unforgiving.
God doesn’t punish those He doesn’t like. We bring things one ourselves generally b/c of choices we make and also we live in a fallen world. As far as Jesus being hung on the cross, He chose to do that so that we could be saved (John 3:16-17). He bore all our sins so that we could have a personal relationship with Him. The awesome thing about it is that He did it for us even though we were sinners that we might be saved and have everlasting life in Heaven.
Here’s the deal, God defies logic. He takes the foolish things and uses them to confound the wise. I am not saying that logic is not important. God being based on logic and reason gives no place for faith. If I based my relationship with God on logic and reason then I am putting Go in a tidy box and saying God you can only do the things that I can think of with my brain. Fortunately God is bigger than that. The universe is expanding at light speed science tells us. God holds the universe in His hand. Logic and reason cannot explain that. I believe that God gave people the ideas for new innovations not for us to think how great we are but how great the creation is that He made.
Finally, I do believe people voted for Prop 8 based on their beliefs/religion. They see the bigger picture, the benefit to the public. Thankfully my state already has banned gay marriage so I did vote and it counted. As for God’s will, it will be done. The great thing is He works through people and I get to participate in making it happen as do countless others. We need only to be obedient to His Word and listen to what He says.
I will not be checking these comments any longer since I am having to restate things to the same people. If you want to know Jesus better read these books in the Bible (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). 1 Corinthians 13 is also a good place to find out what God thinks about love. It give insight into how we should live our lives. God Bless.
#183
1. If he is omniscient, then he already knows what choices you will make before you make them. In that scenario, free will is an illusion. You are simply making the choices he knew you would make well in advance of you making them.
2. The creation story in the Bible is a myth and it isn’t even original to the Jews nor is it the only creation story in the Bible. Your mind is truly clouded by religion if you believe it to be a factual representation of how creation occurred.
3. Did or did not your deity create everything? The Adam and Eve MYTH in no way explains maladies over which there is no choice unless you are suggesting that your deity included these sorts of non-choice maladies in his punishment for Adam and Eve’s mistake in which case your deity is truly monstrous.
4. Where exactly does effeminate equate with homosexuality or even not normal? I see nothing in your Bible which clarifies that. As far as I can tell. you are injecting that interpretation into the discussion with absolutely no foundation. Some straight men are effeminate. Some gay men are not. Sorry, but you do not get to reinterpret the meaning as you wish. If you are going to use the Bible as the only source of information, then you do not get expand on the meaning of words whenever you wish.
4a. Where exactly does Jesus say that death for adultery is no longer necessary? The simple answer is that he does not along with a host of other items in Leviticus which according to your interpretation means they are supposedly still in effect and yet generally ignored.
> God doesn’t punish those He doesn’t like.
Really.
Looking past the Egyptians for a moment, after Moses came down off the mountain and saw the people worshiping the golden calf, your deity then plagued the people (Exodus 32:35). Then there is:
Leviticus 14:34
Leviticus 20:2
Leviticus 21:16-18
Leviticus 25:44-46
Leviticus 26:15-39
Numbers 1:51
Numbers 11:1 – Burn people that complain. Nice!
I could go on. The stories about your deity’s punishments are legion.
Again, if you deity is omniscient, he already knows what choices you will make before you make them. In fact, he knows every choice you will make throughout your entire life before you are born. That is what is meant by omniscient. Thus, when he punishes you, he is punishing a being he created and that he knows will defy his will and yet he lets it continue. That is sadism.
> Here’s the deal, God defies logic
That is a cop out. Since you cannot reconcile the massive inconsistencies in the Bible nor the inconsistent nature of your deity, you are throwing your hands up and simply claiming “Well, he defies logic.” Nonsense. Past Christians used logic to try to explain the inconsistencies (Moore, Augustine etc). Logic is the cornerstone of communication and understanding. The problem is that your religion defies logic by design to keep the masses in the dark.
> Finally, I do believe
> people voted for Prop 8
> based on their beliefs/religion
On this we agree. No question that the religious swayed the vote out of fear and ignorance.
> They see the bigger picture
No. They saw the picture they wanted to see while trampling on the rights of the minority.
> We need only to be obedient
> to His Word and listen to
> what He says.
You are not seriously suggesting that your deity “told” you to vote against gay marriage? Where in the Bible does it command people to vote against measures contrary to your deity’s will? As far as I know, there is nothing about voting in the Bible.
Beyond refraining from voting, I suggest you take the time to actually read the Bible critically and not through rose colored glasses if you are able. Look for contradictions. Look for mistakes. Look for inconsistencies and vagueness. I think you find it far more error filled than you first imagined.
Dbo
i am sorry to see that you are throwing up your hands, taking your toys and going home. I am sad to see that you could not answer any of the questions posed to you in a critical fashion that involves just a little bit of thought put into instead of parroting the same things over and over. Maybe that is why you are frustrated, you do not have any answers that require thought. You choose instead to live on a world of black and white where you do not question the authority that has been taught to you. That is fine. That is your right to live your life as you will without restrictions. I only take umbrage when people like you try to impose their will based solely on what is their faith, without a critical eye on what that means for society at large. I wish you luck and hope that you can gather the strength to begin to question things. if you do start to question and still believe than that is great. Some of the greatest thinkers went through the same process (my favorite being C.S. Lewis) but do not surrender your brain to what others tell you. That is truly a sin against God.