Death row inmates at the federal prison in Terre Haute are routinely denied access to medical, dental and mental health care, the American Civil Liberties Union said Wednesday in a letter to a governmental official.
A yearlong investigation by the ACLU’s National Prison Project uncovered “grossly inadequate” conditions that “fail to meet constitutional standards and jeopardize the health and safety” of the more than 50 inmates awaiting execution at the prison, the organization said in a letter to Harley Lappin, director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
“The Constitution prohibits deliberate indifference to the serious medical needs of prisoners, including those sentenced to die,” ACLU attorney Gabriel B. Eber said in a news release. He called on officials to “do whatever is necessary” to correct the problems.
Associated Press – October 15, 2008:
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#28 – Mr. Gibson
>>You really think there are no wingnuts on
>>the Left? C’mon.
Well, according to current usage, no:
“According to New York Times language maven William Safire, “The prevailing put-down of right-wing bloggers is wingnuts….”
“Some right-wing conservatives have adopted the term as a badge of honor, with a group in South Dakota calling itself the “SD Wingnuts”.”
So the concensus seems to be tighty-rightie=wingnut.
#1 – “Universal health care, whether you are condemned to death or not, should be a basic human right in a civilized society.”
Based on what moral or political philosophy? We’ve had 2,000 – 4,000 years to develop and expand on mortality and philosophy and by what measure do you determine that those who chose the profession of health care are required to serve all who demand service?
Universal health care, whatever flavor; mandatory insurance, public financing, you name it, invariable makes the provider a slave to the public and the public beholden to the government. Net effect=slavery. As P.J. O’Rourke has said, “A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take it all away.”
Bottom line, you, and only you, are responsible for the care of yourself and your family. You have no right to demand that anyone give you any treatment. There is plenty of room for reform in the current system, particularly rescinding the enormous government interference which has driven costs up so high since Ted Kennedy’s HMO plan in the early 70’s. Health care was once affordable for all but the most destitute and can be again, but more government is NOT the answer.
#30 – Mustard, while Safire may reflect current usage, the ellipsis in your quote, which appears to come from Wikipedia, leaves out the relevant point, “From the time of its first popular usage until the early 2000s, the term wingnut was used by both right-wing and left-wing people to refer to each other.” That gives a more full context and reinforces my point that it references the extreme on either end. As does Merriam-Webster;
“Main Entry: wing nut
Function: noun
Date: circa 1900
1: a nut with wings that provide a grip for the thumb and finger
2slang : a mentally deranged person
3slang : one who advocates extreme measures or changes : radical”
Lastly, I really like an etymological definition, “An earlier, British, sense of wingnut was “person with large, protruding ears” (1986).” Thus making Obama and the Prince of Wales a wingnut. Cool, no?
#2, sargasso;
Yah, that’s a great idea.
Because, you know, the juries never convict the wrong person.
[/sarcasm]
#32 I assume you are talking about ‘health care professionals’ whom don’t take the Hippocratic Oath, as nowhere in the oath do I see a ‘I maintain the right to refuse treatment to those I deem leeches on society.’
>I’m willing to pay more Taxes to get Universal Health Care.
You mean you’re willing to take other people’s money to pay for health care for yourself., and maybe others.
If you are one of the people who would end up paying more in taxes to make this health care happen, then tell me, do you right now voluntarily give the extra money to provide health care for others?
#36;
Wow, you really know how to read between the lines! You are truly amazing at your ability to construct logical fallacies.
Do you even realize the amount of bullshit contained in your comment?
You mean you’re willing to take other people’s money to pay for health care for yourself., and maybe others.
Did he say that? Nope, not at all. What he said was he’d be willing to pay extra taxes if it funded Universal Health Care. Did he say he wanted to pay individual health bills for others? Nope.
Simple math people. Spread the cost amongst everybody and the costs are cheaper. Most (if not all) other westernized countries have figured it out, why can’t we? Oh, right, foolish pride.
Fitting that our health care system ranks amongst the worst of westernized countries.
Its funny how many conservatives get uppity if they feel their tax dollars might be used to help some some poor bugger run over by a bus, but are fine with giving to the rich in the form of corporate welfare or plum Haliburton-esqe government contracts.
…and speaking of the electric chair…
At GE we bring good things to life.
At Westinghouse we put bad things to death.
#37 – “Simple math people. Spread the cost amongst everybody and the costs are cheaper. Most (if not all) other westernized countries have figured it out, why can’t we? Oh, right, foolish pride.”
Oversimplification does not change the fact that if government is the gatekeeper, then they will, as they always do, take more and more off the top for themselves and increase costs. Otherwise, why not have government allocate cars, oil, food, etc. Oh ya, been tried a number of times and failed every time. As P.J. O’ourke has said, “You think health care is expensive now? Just wait till it’s free.”
If not government as the gatekeeper, then, you have a private system. Under the current, private system, there is, in fact, universal health care. ANYONE, including illegal aliens, who shows up at a hospital, will not be refused treatment. The one sticking point for people is you actually have to pay for the services you use. Imagine that! Those evil Americans, they make people pay for what they use. How gauche!
As far as what most countries have “figured out,” read the comments of doctors in Canada, like David Gratzer, and in the UK. Both of which countries are moving AWAY from socialized medicine to more market based systems. Just do a search on ‘failure of socialized medicine’ to see how things are not nearly as rosy as the free heath care crowd would have you imagine.
Lastly, I will say that if someone put forward a plan for ‘universal coverage’ which didn’t result in government gatekeepers, longer wait times, higher costs, and a lower standard of care for all but the system’s apparatchiks, I would love to see it, but that ain’t what ANY of the current proposals from the Left have to offer.
As long as no Death Row inmate will ever be exonerated, then it’s fair to withhold certain amenities of life. Like freedom from excruciating cancer pain, angst and psoriasis. (Which I hear can be heartbreaking.)
But until our computer masters can guarantee that level of certainty, maybe we should provide health care. You know; just in case.
First of all, there should be no death penalty. It is NOT profitable in any way, shape or form.
Second, these people like everyone else should have healthcare as it is critical to maintaining a secure nation.
Our leaders whom have sworn an oath to protect the citizens of the republic from enemies both foreign and domestic fail as they do not regard disease and sickness as domestic enemies.
They are and should be treated accordingly.
Cursor_
Aussie death penalty is the same as health care.
Go to the Public Emergency Dept.
Wait for years and die without treatment.
Two birds with one stone.
If you were on death row you are dead.
If you missed out on proper treatment you should have had private health.
I’m sure USA is different….
48%==No huh? and would this magnificent group be 98% Republican?
“I’ve got mine–screw everyone else.” Even fits on a bumper sticker but it won’t win votes.
Sad so many would immediately lower themselves to the basest de-appreciation of humanity, but then, maybe it wasn’t a long trip.
Yup. Basic health care should be universal.
Today, I am taxed monthly to provide universal telephone service to all the right wing McCain yahoos living in the Texas countryside and there is a debate about Healthcare?
I would think Americans can be more productive without the fear of them or their families dropping dead in the street.
Those that want breast implants, facelift and eyebrows professionally plucked like McCain’s wife should fund out of their own pocket.
If they are organ donors, sure they can have health care.
#22 “I’m not questioning America’s democratic institutions but the reasoning behind the reluctance to spend tax dollars on universal health care.”
The info you are missing. Americans are pro-choice in most things. I don’t know anyone who objects to universal health care if there is an opt out clause for those who don’t want it.
No pay, no participate.
The liberals refuse the pro-choice idea so it won’t go anywhere.
Pretty close vote! I’m firmly in the “yes” camp here. While I’m uncertain about handing over control of my health care to the US Government, I agree it would be hard to do worse than we have now. We have the most expensive, least effective health care system on the planet. In some ways I do like the idea of providing a tax-supported government run system and see if the private insurance companies can compete. If the government system is as bad as I fear it could be, the private systems should have no problem. If I’m wrong and the government actually figures out how to do health care well, then private health insurance would be doomed.
#40: If you think that just anyone can show up at any hospital and get treatment, you’re sadly mistaken. Hospitals regularly can and do refuse to treat people who are uninsured. I’ve been without health insurance and been refused myself. I was riding my bike and was hit by a car. Luckily a doctor happened to be driving by and reduced my dislocated shoulder on the spot. No hospital would take me, though, so if it had happened to be life threatening I would have died. I was lucky the van that was bearing down on me after the car knocked me from the sidewalk into the first lane of traffic was able to stop in time.
#32, goef,
Universal health care, whatever flavor; mandatory insurance, public financing, you name it, invariable makes the provider a slave to the public and the public beholden to the government. Net effect=slavery.
Gee, this morning I was talking to our “slave” delivering the mail. I have a bill in front of me to pay our electrical bill to the “slaves” that provide our power. Hang on, ok, I just waved to the “slave” driving the County Roads truck going down our road. I wonder if the Sheriff, a few doors down from me, knows he is a “slave” too.
Damn slaves !!!
Bottom line, you, and only you, are responsible for the care of yourself and your family.
Sure, me and my gun. I’ll provide for my family as I have to. OR. We could do it the civilized way and act as a community to provide services and labor for the common good of us all.
Yes, the Mailman is paid to deliver my mail. The power company employees are paid to deliver electricity to my house. The County employees are paid to fix the road. The Sheriff is paid to occupy his office. They are all free to deliver their services or find another line of work.
My physician must accept me as a patient or be dropped from the insurance plan. Gee, I guess that makes him a slave to the insurance plan. He has no voice to change anything with the insurance company. When he sits on hold trying to talk to the insurance company, he doesn’t get paid. If he drops the insurance plan I can’t use him. In Canada no physician is forced to accept a patient. Since the insurance is run by the government he can voice his concerns to his representative.
Currently I am forced to accept the coverage my insurance plan gives me. Plus I pay a large co-pay. I either take the medication the insurance plan tells my physician he may prescribe or pay out of my own pocket. The insurance company doesn’t care if I puke all day, they’re saving money. If he needs more X-Rays to monitor the progress he needs to get their permission first, it seems I’ve used up my yearly allotment.
Now what is that you are talking about us becoming slaves?
#40;
You imply oversimplification is a bad thing, yet oversimplify things yourself? Hypocrite.
Your plan falls on it face a couple of ways. First, only emergency care is guaranteed under our system. Regular medical care is not.
Have a huge emergency (say, you get hit by a bus)? Sure, we’ll fix you. But you’ll have to foot a $500,000 bill.
Seems fair and compassionate to me. [/sarcasm]
(Oh, and feel free to provide links to prove your argument. Your “sources” via Google are thick on opinion and unsubstantiated claims, but little factual information. They also have a history of providing false and misleading “facts”.)
#40, goef,
Oversimplification does not change the fact that if government is the gatekeeper, then they will, as they always do, take more and more off the top for themselves and increase costs.
You have that backwards. The current American system is profit orientated. The SEC insists that health insurance companies maximize profits for the shareholders. NOT for the patients.
As P.J. O’ourke has said, “You think health care is expensive now? Just wait till it’s free.”
Is P.J. O’Rourke some genius we should all just acknowledge as an expert on health care? The last I saw, he is a satirist who had once edited the National Lampoon. You seem to like quoting him, please, give us a reason why anyone should defer to his judgement.
Under the current, private system, there is, in fact, universal health care. ANYONE, including illegal aliens, who shows up at a hospital, will not be refused treatment.
Plain and simple, you are wrong. A hospital only needs to stabilize someone before releasing them. If they are badly injured, that could mean as little as a band aid and some Tylenol. And you may still be billed if you have an address, ability to pay doesn’t matter.
Those evil Americans, they make people pay for what they use. How gauche!
Geeze, and Canadians don’t pay for their medical care? How naive. The difference is I pay through my employer, my share, and co-pays. Yes, I could have gotten a raise but they pay for our medical insurance which is quite expensive. My brother in Canada is paying for his health insurance through taxes. My insurance plan is private and out to turn a profit. My brother’s insurance doesn’t try to turn a profit.
As far as what most countries have “figured out,” read the comments of doctors in Canada, like David Gratzer, and in the UK. Both of which countries are moving AWAY from socialized medicine to more market based systems.
One doctor does not speak for everyone. As with most things, health care is evolving to accommodate new procedures and advances in medicine. I can’t speak for the UK (a bastardized system of private and public) but Canada’s system does very well. The majority of Canadians don’t want the American style of health care even if they recognize there are problems.
Just do a search on ‘failure of socialized medicine’ to see how things are not nearly as rosy as the free heath care crowd would have you imagine.
There are always right wing nuts that will cry about anything they can’t steal from. No, Canadian health care isn’t perfect. Either is the privately owned garbage pick up that allows garbage to blow all over as it goes past our house. The Canadian health care system IS better to the average middle class person; you know, the 80% that make up the population in the middle, than is the comparable American system.
… but that ain’t what ANY of the current proposals from the Left have to offer.
Only if a company can make huge profits off of the sick and injured, the vulnerable, will you be happy.
#37
>willing to pay extra taxes if it funded Universal Health Care. Did he say he wanted to pay individual health bills for others? Nope.
That is a logical fallacy.
Universal health care means other’s health care is provided for.
If the poster is truly willing to pay more in taxes for this health care, then he should be willing to pay those extra taxes now.
The only way costs go down under universal health care is by taking money form healthy people who don’t spend as much on health care.
#53;
Wrong. You are assuming there would be no regulation of the obscene profits the medical industry is making.
It is universally agreed that Universal Healthcare gains billions in cost savings from the following areas:
1. profits returned to the system and not siphoned off to shareholders and stock option bonuses,
2. great reduction in paperwork
3. no competition/fraud in case review to deny care or limited coverage after the policy is sold
4. early intervention with preventative care rather than “illness coverage” once you get sick
These alone could provide universal coverage, better outcomes, and lower overall cost.
More savings is possible a generation later when the “for profit” mind set is fully wrung out of the system.
Is healthcare a right or a privilege? Obama said “it SHOULD BE a right” and quite right he is.
5.
#55 All good points. If true the gov’t could set up a system SO good that people would voluntarily join with no coercion needed due to superior care and lower cost.
Obama should just set it up and people will join without a gun to their head.
IF, it is as you say…
Bobbo, your point #3 raises costs.
Point #1 reduces the number of health care providers. The number of people who waste their 20s in med school goes way down if their isn’t money to be made.
#56–Paddy==opt in plans are said not to work because the cost savings come only with “universal” coverage. I like your idea though. Anything “good” should be able to compete.
#57–Mike==you don’t think much of healthcare providers if you think no one wants to be a doctor/nurse/technician if they can’t get stock options as well. That is a major republican lie that gets a lot of mileage with too many people.
Money certainy motivates, but so does doing a good job well. Too often, the desire for money will attract those who want money only and don’t care that much about the job done well.
#58 “Anything “good” should be able to compete.”
That’s what I think. I’d switch and willingly pay for a better cheaper plan.
Bobbo, I don’t think wishful thinking should be the basis of policy. Money and greed exist.
Your response to Paddy echoes what I said earlier. Universal health care only saves money by forcing healthy people to pay more than they get back.
#60;
Universal health care only saves money by forcing healthy people to pay more than they get back.
So, basically how all forms of private insurance work already?
You just made a convincing argument for UHC.