Dow Down 500 Points as House Rejects Bailout – Market Overview – CNBC.com
So let me get this straight. The “free” market as represented by the Dow-Jones and the NYSE falls through the floor because the US Government did not vote in a program that would represent government control of a free market. What is wrong with these people?
The market screamed as the House vote on the Wall Street bailout bill teetered on the edge of a cliff — and then fell off.
The bill initially failed to get enough votes, sending the market into a tailspin, as congressmen and women huddled to try to shore up the votes to save it. To no avail: The bill was ultimately rejected, leaving the future of the bailout in question.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average fell 701.93 at one point
#51 J said
“Instead you are getting you info from some right wing nut job who doesn’t understand the issues at hand.”
Matter of fact, I haven’t listened to any nut jobs. I do agree that I am one who doesn’t fully understand the issues at hand, but please tell me who does. We are in a hell of a mess, the Federal Reserve has been spreading money around, almost like a drunken sailor (and yes I did used to be one of those, so I understand that). Former government (and Federal Reserve) officials say they couldn’t see this coming – hell, I could! And I’m not nearly alone.
No, I haven’t been listening to conservative BS any more that Liberal BS.
Voting was originally intended for intelligent informed citizens. Now it is not. Sometimes you can’t give a rats ass for what Joe Blow thinks. He can be a dumb bastard that will destroy everything through ignorance and petty revenge. I know this is elitist, but since when is that always a bad thing. Look around your neighborhood. You want them making major decisions about the future of the nation. Personally I only think the bill would only temper the pain a bit, but that’s better than nothing.
#51–J==you say: “You just don’t understand what is happening in the credit market.” /// By which I take it that you do understand? Beyond absent giving them $700Billion or credit will freeze up, what else do you understand?
Bottom Line—do you think you know all the facts sufficient to say the current bill was the best reaction to the current situation barring some other bill to be written by this Friday?
If you had a blank sheet and 2 weeks==what would your best case solution be?
I’m asking for information, not a confrontation because as I have posted, I personally don’t know.
The markets are so heavily over priced/over rated to begin with a little free fall will do it some good.
#58 – O’Furniture
>>Right, Barney’s motto is kishka first! LOL
So. You’re a homophobe now, too? Are you sure you’re not Anal Cyst Limbaugh in drag?
# 60 Ranger007
“please tell me who does.”
Entirely? No one I think but there are those with enough knowledge to know the underpinning of this economy require “a” bailout to keep credit flowing. Without it there will be a collapse that most people alive have never seen.
“Former government (and Federal Reserve) officials say they couldn’t see this coming ”
They are full of shit. They saw it they just hoped they wouldn’t be in charge when it happened.
“No, I haven’t been listening to conservative BS any more that Liberal BS.”
It isn’t liberal BS. This is a very serious situation. Why else do you think the Democrats support a bill put forth by GW Bush?
#60 J said
“This is a very serious situation.”
I do believe the seriousness of it. We’ve (collective we) have gotten ourselves in one hell of a mess. If the credit market collapses because of this, we will have to work our way through it.
Borrowing (and please don’t tell me it was an investment) against our kids and grandkids is wrong, wrong, wrong.
This is like watching a group of people in a leaking tent in a rainstorm try and decide who gets wet while everyone is already soaked.
We need credit reform that favors the customer. Simple as that.
This is just my opinion, and I’m no economist, but I think if we mandated All interest on ALL outstanding consumer loans to 5 percent over the prime rate, and extended all grace periods before penalty fees to 30 days (what business gives itself) we’d save quite a few people quite a lot of money, and give them much more control over their lives.
As far as the 700 billion, we’d do better to just pay off all the debt at the consumer level. I doubt that the true amount of debt in household hands matches the ridiculous leveraged debt that sits in bank ledgers.
“By which I take it that you do understand? Beyond absent giving them $700Billion or credit will freeze up, what else do you understand?”
First off it isn’t about blindly giving them $700 billion. There are many protections and oversight clause in the bill. Are they enough? I hope so but because there are two opposing factions that is probably the best we will get.
Credit freeze! That is all you need to understand. That means no money for business and people. Right now There are big banks that won’t give a loan for more than $400,000 to anyone. What if your company needs it to expand? What if they need it to make payroll? What happens if you need credit to purchase materials? That means closings and lots of unemployment. This is how a lot of business is done. They borrow short term and profit. It happens every day it is part of the free market. Many companies that provide many services and products and generate BILLIONS of revenue and pay BILLIONS in taxes won’t be doing that anymore. You think your taxes are high now? Wait till costs go up and you also have to pay more in taxes.
It will happen gradually. Not all at once. If you stop the flow of credit you stop the flow of business. That is how it works. You may say well the survival of the fittest but that isn’t going to help the millions of people that join the unemployment lines.
“Bottom Line—do you think you know all the facts sufficient to say the current bill was the best reaction to the current situation barring some other bill to be written by this Friday?”
Yes. Is it what I want? No. But because of politics it is the best we will get and it is better than nothing.
“If you had a blank sheet and 2 weeks==what would your best case solution be?”
We need to get the credit market flowing! It is all dependant on how people react. That is the hard part.
Understand I hate Geroge Bush and everything he stands for but I do agree with him that something has to be done or it will get very bad.
# 67 Smartalix
“As far as the 700 billion, we’d do better to just pay off all the debt at the consumer level.”
It is a great theory and if it would work I would be all for it but that won’t open the credit market. It should but it won’t.
>not reasonable to imagine that every single Democrat is going to vote along party lines. They were counting on a significant number of Repubs to support the bill too.
But they couldn’t get 70 percent? Isn’t that reasonable?
Isn’t 65 Republicans reasonable? one third of the Republicans? If you insist that you have to get a majority of Republicans, then you should bring them to the table. Not hold a bipartisan meeting to which you forget to invite them(actually happened).
#68 – J
>>What if your company needs it to expand? What
>>if they need it to make payroll? What happens
>>if you need credit to purchase materials?
Then I guess you hire Paddy O’Furniture as a consultant. He said that any business that needs to borrow money to operate is a poorly run business. Furthermore, has never owned or worked for a company that needed to borrow to cover their expenses. Heh.
Of course, that could just mean that 1) He’s never had a job or 2) his “business” of mowing the neighbors’ lawns didn’t require any credit, because mom and dad supplied the lawnmower, and he was able to purchase gas with his profits.
This is a CORRECTION.
It’s also only the single largest *point* drop. Not percentage. This is not as bad as Black Monday – the drop today is comparable to the tech bubble bursting in 2000.
Let me put it this way.
When you get your leg cut off because you are careless and stupid you have to put a tourniquet on it until you can get to the hospital otherwise you will bleed to death. You would rather put your leg back on but that isn’t an option because you are bleeding like a sieve and you will die.
Put the tourniquet on get to the hospital. Once you recover then you can review how your stupidly lead to you losing your leg and make plans to never do it again. At least you are alive.
On the other hand, they adjourned til Thursday, which means we are guaranteed that the oil drilling moratorium will expire. Oil prices dropped $10.
J #73
“Once you recover then you can review how your stupidly lead to you losing your leg and make plans to never do it again. At least you are alive.”
J, you are dealing the the government here, that means logic is not a part of the equation. This is the Government – Trust Us!
And believe me, I absolutely respect your opinion and if it was darn near anything else I would agree with you wholeheartedly. Just can’t do it, it’s the Government!
# 72 brm
“It’s also only the single largest *point* drop. Not percentage”
Yes that is what I said.
“This is not as bad as Black Monday”
No it isn’t but it could be soon.
“the drop today is comparable to the tech bubble bursting in 2000.”
No it is worse because credit was looser back then.
It isn’t the stock market that is the problem!!! It is the credit crunch.
# 71 Mister Mustard
“He said that any business that needs to borrow money to operate is a poorly run business. ”
If it was long term borrowing I would agree but many business borrow short term like on their American Express cards. I have all the money I need but it is sometimes hard to pay $500, 000 in cash for equipment. I just don’t carry that much on me you know? lol
This type of short term borrowing is VERY VERY common and is almost essential for large corporations. It is how it works even if they have the money in the bank like I do.
“Furthermore, has never owned or worked for a company that needed to borrow to cover their expenses. Heh.”
He has he just doesn’t know it or realize it.
“Of course, that could just mean that 1) He’s never had a job ”
I will go with that one. LOL
# 42 “But, if you saw Pelosi’s speech before the vote you would understand why some Republicans might have backed out. What an seemingly ignorant woman? If you haven’t seen it, watch it.”
I did. Big whoopee. She beat up on Bush and Bernake- gee, I haven’t heard Republicans say anything but happy things about those two lately.
If you didn’t like the bill, then say you didn’t like the bill. But blaming Pelosi for giving a speech before the vote makes them out to be whiners.
It reminds me of when Gingrich said he extended the gov’t shut down in the 90’s because he couldn’t ride up front in Air Force One.
# 75 Ranger007
“J, you are dealing the the government here, that means logic is not a part of the equation. This is the Government – Trust Us!
And believe me, I absolutely respect your opinion and if it was darn near anything else I would agree with you wholeheartedly. Just can’t do it, it’s the Government!”
Man I agree with you on the Government thing but I have never heard of a major bank not willing to loan a company with 10’s of Millions in assets and cash more than $400,000. There is some serious shit taking place and there will be a lot of casualties.
Understand I have nothing to gain from this and I won’t hurt one bit but I see the lava flow and it is heading this way.
#77 Hyph3n said
“But blaming Pelosi for giving a speech before the vote makes them out to be whiners.”
Doesn’t make any difference if you costs you votes, now does it.
#67 Smartalix
Sounds like a plan to me… you got my vote.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=46832&altf=Tnbsubmjy&altl=
# 79 Ranger007
“Doesn’t make any difference if you costs you votes, now does it.”
I think they were looking for an excuse. She gave it to them but it is dishonest of them to say her speech is the reason. The reason is a philosophical differences. They think it is better to let it sink and the Democrats don’t
Sounds to me like some more banks should open up.
There’s plenty of profits to be had if the big bank are out of the market.
# 78 Jay said
” but I see the lava flow and it is heading this way.”
No disagreement there.
#73: “You would rather put your leg back on but that isn’t an option because you are bleeding like a sieve and you will die.”
This is more like, getting someone to smash your face in with a brick to help you ignore the pain in your severed leg. Only until your face kind of heals do you realize your leg wound’s gone gangrenous.
#81 J said
“I think they were looking for an excuse.”
And, she gave it to them.
“They think it is better to let it sink and the Democrats don’t”
Now, let’s not give the democrats too much credit. Maybe (and I am a Registered Democrat) those opposed just don’t think this is the way to fix the situation.
Where’s Barney Frank now to tell us that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are very, very well run outfits?
# 84 brm
“This is more like, getting someone to smash your face in with a brick to help you ignore the pain in your severed leg.”
No it’s not and if you understood the credit market you wouldn’t say such stupid things.
J==I think all you have affirmed is tht business needs credit. That doens’t mean that the current failures of credit manipulation should be bailed out.
Are there no other ways to do it? Gingrinch acts as if he knows the answers. Loans vs Taking over bad debts? New federal program for new loans to surviving banks? ANYTHING other than bailing out failures?
The leg analogy dosn’t work because we have more time. I have owned two businesses, I never borrowed to make payroll or install a phone system. Had to rent my offices because I couldn’t affort to build my own. We as a nation need to save more rather than credit spend our children into debt, why not start now?
I don’t know enough to be dogmatic but it seems to me the generation that caused the problem should take on the majority of the pain to solve the crises.
Why not socialize the whole thing and allow free market capitalism to rebuild? That would do several things from what I understand.
One of the financial babes reported that “the mortgages” are currently valued at 65% while 95% of homeowners are not in default==lots of room for the market to survive.
Giving money to failures based on trust and blank checks is near absolute proof you are dealing with a crook. DON’T DEAL WITH CROOKS.
#76: “Yes that is what I said.”
No, it’s not. I said:
“only the single largest point drop. Not percentage.”
you said:
“largest point drop!”
Totally different statements. I’m trying to figure out what the *actual* drop is, and you’re trying to find an impressive sounding number that transmits a lot of emotion, yet few data.