Here is a chronology of events in South Ossetia:
November 1989 – South Ossetia declares autonomy from the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, triggering three months of fighting.
December 1990 – Georgia and South Ossetia begin a new armed conflict which lasts until 1992.
June 1992 – Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian leaders meet in Sochi, sign an armistice and agree to the creation of a tripartite peacekeeping force of 500 soldiers from each entity.
November 1993 – South Ossetia drafts its own constitution.
November 1996 – South Ossetia elects its first president.
December 2001 – South Ossetia elects Eduard Kokoity as president. In 2002 he asks Moscow to recognize the republic’s independence and absorb it into Russia.
January 2005 – Russia gives guarded approval to Georgia’s plan to grant broad autonomy to South Ossetia in exchange for dropping its bid for independence.
November 2006 – South Ossetia overwhelmingly endorses its split with Tbilisi in a referendum. Georgia’s prime minister says this is part of a Russian campaign to stoke a war.
April 2007 – Georgia’s parliament approves a law to create a temporary administration in South Ossetia, raising tension with Russia.
June 2007 – South Ossetian separatists say Georgia attacked Tskhinvali with mortar and sniper fire. Tbilisi denies this.
October 2007 – Talks hosted by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe between Georgia and South Ossetia break down.
March 2008 – South Ossetia asks the world to recognize its independence from Georgia following the West’s support for Kosovo’s secession from Serbia.
March 2008 – Georgia’s bid to join NATO, though unsuccessful, prompts Russia’s parliament to urge the Kremlin to recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
April 2008 – South Ossetia rejects a Georgian power-sharing deal, insists on full independence.
August 2008 – Georgian forces attack South Ossetia’s capital Tskhinvali to re-take the breakaway region. Russia says its troops were responding to the assault and Georgia’s Saakashvili says the two countries were at war.
And – Here’s a Fox News video of survivors thanking the RUSSIANS for protecting them from the GEORGIANS!!!
Kelpie, bobbo’s cranky today. I’m guessing it’s either the heat, or the fact that the Cubs are still in first place.
#57, What I’m saying is that #1) This more complicated than Black and White hats (should be obvious). And #2) Were this level of concern expressed in the run up to the current ‘crisis,’ more robust diplomacy would have saved lives and property.
Most specifically, were diplomats vigorously working to resolve the desire of Ossetia and Abkhazia to be independent, rather than chowing down on snacks at parties, much of this could have been avoided.
My suspicion is that the fighting is driven by Putin’s desire to establish the next Russian empire and the desire by Tblisi to keep Georgia’s territory intact. The people in the middle are the pawns who usually suffer. Not hypocrisy, just the way of the world.
#63–kelpie==you are wrong, you do have to indicate sarcasm because when you post as a complete idiot you sound just like a neo-con. Ony way to spot the sarcasm is by close knowledge of previous postings otherwise (not present here) or some objective clue.
Do you think Mike N has been sarcastic for the last year?
I am being grumpy==but I’m always grumpy. I’m just not happy unless someone is beating me at an argument, or showing some insight of their own.
Try reading this for your amusement:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2570754/Georgia-conflict-How-a-flat-tyre-took-the-Caucasus-to-war.html
Interesting part for me is:
“It was disturbing atmosphere,” recalled Mr Yakobashvili. “Two days before, the South Ossetians had started using Russian positions to shoot at our troops. But we decided to make the trip anyway because a direct meeting would have been a breakthrough.”
Asked as to whereabouts of the rest of the delegation, General Kulakhmetov was polite but blunt. He held up his phone to the Georgian negotiator’s ear to demonstrate that the South Ossetian delegate had turned his mobile off.
A second mobile phone call to Yuri Popov, the Russian diplomat, chairman of the talks, added an element of the ridiculous to the impasse. “I called and spoke to Popov and he said he could not get to the office because his car had a flat tyre,” said Mr Yakobashvili. “This was preposterous. I said the delegation must have more cars. He said there is another car but its tyre is flat too. At this point I knew it was a trap and I was very angry.”
But Gen Kulakhmetov was not finished. “He had a message for me,” said Mr Yakobashvili. “He said he could not control the South Ossetians while there was Georgian military on the boundary. He said we must declare a unilateral ceasefire before the Russians could push them back.”
Before Mr Yakobashvili left the South Ossetian capital, Georgia’s President Mikheil Saakashvili was preparing to make a ceasefire declaration on national television.
But as he came off air, he was handed a folder containing what the Georgians claim were US-provided satellite photos of a column of Russian armour advancing towards the Roki tunnel, the passageway that links South Ossetia to Russia.
In the volatile and paranoid world of Caucasian politics, there was only one way in which such photos would be interpreted. The Georgian government concluded Russia had devised a premeditated exercise to humiliate its envoy during his trip to Tskhinvali, and in the heat of the moment, the flat tyre was interpreted as a contemptuous first move for a well-planned invasion. The Georgians also realised that they had only one opportunity to stop the Russian column – at the Kurta bridge, which straddles a high ravine south of the tunnel.
“This was a heavy armoured Russian column, moving slowly, on very rugged terrain,” said Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze, who is adamant that the Russians had intended an ambush. “Think about how many hours of preparation, assembly, then marching, it would take for that column, moving at that speed on rugged terrain to be at the Kurta bridge at six in the morning. If that isn’t a premeditated invasion, I don’t know what is.”
Georgia also calculated that by dawn the following the day, the world’s attention would be focused on Beijing for the opening of the Olympic Games. Its US-trained Georgian army therefore formed an audacious plan to sabotage the bridge more than 100 miles behind enemy lines. The operation, however, was a only a partial success. The bridge was damaged and almost one dozen Russian vehicles were blown up, but the Russians then regrouped and repulsed the Georgians.
From a trival beginnings, war had ignited in the tiny mountainous statelet.”
So, take it for what it is.
QB, dig a little deeper. Georgia is not on that list. Neither is Russia, however, under President Clinton, Russia was brought into the NATO fold in a special advisory role in return for cooperation with expansion of NATO into the Soviet bloc.
One more thing, a snippet from Charles Krauthammer’s column:
“His (Putin’s) objectives are clear. They go beyond detaching South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia and absorbing them into Russia. They go beyond destroying the Georgian army, leaving the country at Russia’s mercy.
The real objective is the Finlandization of Georgia through the removal of President Mikheil Saakashvili and his replacement by a Russian puppet.
Which explains Putin stopping the Russian army (for now) short of Tbilisi. What everyone overlooks in the cease-fire terms is that all future steps — troop withdrawals, territorial arrangements, peacekeeping forces — will have to be negotiated between Russia and Georgia. But Russia says it will not talk to Saakashvili. Thus regime change becomes the first requirement for any movement on any front. This will be Putin’s refrain in the coming days. He is counting on Europe to pressure Saakashvili to resign and/or flee to “give peace a chance.”
The Finlandization of Georgia would give Russia control of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which is the only significant westbound route for Caspian Sea oil and gas that does not go through Russia. Pipelines are the economic lifelines of such former Soviet republics as Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan that live off energy exports. Moscow would become master of the Caspian basin.”
#66–bobbo==you are wrong. You say my post came across as a neo-con diatribe. I started off saying that another country would have had the right to invade the US during our civil war. That is NOT a neo-con position – it is so absurd that a reasonable person would easily conclude that it is sarcastic. That would be the “objective clue” for most people. The suggestion that Spain be invaded is also absurd, though perhaps not as obvious to some without knowledge of that situation.
When I said: “The Russians had in no way exacerbated the civil conflict in an effort to claim control over South Ossetia,” that is contradicted by the evidence.
When I said: “I also find it helpful to ascribe charitable motivations to foreign nations because it conforms to my worldview,” I have no idea how anyone could read that in any other way than as mocking. That to me was another “objective clue.” I’m sure you could be happy all the time if you let go of certain preconceptions (e.g. all people are idiots until they prove otherwise and neo-cons are all about other nations invading other nations).
#70–kelpie==I take your point but there is the other side. The danger of sarcasm is to think it is being used simply because I think the position stated is ridiculous. Neo-cons do support the “right” to invade other countries. This philosophy would apply to our Civil War. If your point is they don’t do it specifically to the civil war because it was 150 years ago, that is just stupid==the philosophy certainly applies.
So==take note. Yes, your post is completely consistent with being sarcastic. Yes, your post is completely consistent with being misspercieved. Did you see the Sat Night Live skit on Sarcastic Joe who got himself convicted of bank robbery? “Oh yea, I drove cross town and held up the bank during my lunch hour, yea, thats what I did.”
Its your choice. I’d keep doing it and when you feel like it inform the readers who think you are being serious. Sarcasm/on==What else is the point of communication except being self referential?==sarcasm/off.
Kelpie, mocking is not appropriate. Mockery in any form, purpose or directed at anyone, especially those least able to defend themselves, is neither funny nor acceptable.
Bobbo, someone was convicted and given the death penalty in Oklahoma like this. It is the topic of John Grisham’s latest book.
#72==Mike, you are a “caution.” John Grisham is a horrible writer. Good plots but no character development, no thematic development or symbolism.
I’ll look for his latest as I have read everything he has written so far.
Are you feeling ok? Been a bit quiet.
#69 Nice point. Don’t forget the missiles that the US and NATO want to put around Russia from the North Sea to the Caspian.
Think on this, if it was USA and a country right next to it, witch killed American peace keeper troops, it and was trying to get into a origination that regards America as opposition.
With plans to put up missile defenses right at their borders.
Would America permit another county to do that at say the Canadian or Mexican border?
I really doubt that.
MikeN, you assert great moral dictum: mockery is never acceptable or funny. What is acceptable or funny lies in the eye of the beholder and certain rhetorical devices can make a point – whether you approve of them or not.
In this case, I did not make fun of anything anyone has said and all sarcasm/mockery was pointed at possible (naive and ridiculous) unstated assumptions.
The blog post does not make the connection between Saakashvili’s arguably poor judgement and the asserted righteousness of Russia. In other words, the conclusion does not match the argument. Some would disagree (perhaps the neo-cons?) and that is why I used sarcasm, to draw out all those unstated assumptions rather than listen to rationalization after rationalization for Russia’s actions.
We can instead use the blog as a platform to hold a generic debate on the Georgian conflict, but that misses the point.
I clearly misjudged the audience. To make it more clear: this blog offers nothing new, just an unfounded conclusion based on the facts itself presents. [Refer to my self referential prior posts to divine how I came to this conclusion].
f_w, now Russia is in a much better position to negotiate since they are gaining control over Georgia, especially now that their own SS-21’s (and probably 24’s) are in the country. I wonder why they are dragging their feet on withdrawal?
Bush and Rice snubbed them when threatened (right thing to do) but will eventually have to talk about the missiles, regional control (including eastern Europe), NATO memberships, G8 access, OPEC (yea right) or OECD, and EU memberships. The Russian moves are very popular domestically, and the timing is probably good. They won’t get movement on everything but they certainly are back in Washington’s focus.
Broadly they want much more control in the region and some of their former glory. In the short term they want their way with Georgia, and the intersea region. Also, if they can’t get their way with NATO they have at least caused a split between the Americans and the Europeans.
It will be “interesting” to see how the pullout goes over the next few days. Withdrawal can mean so many things. 😉
Kelpie,
Don’t worry. Your sarcasm was easily noted by almost everyone. Those that could not perceive the tone, is, well, how can I put it, how about fucking retarded.
#69, selvarin,
One more thing, a snippet from Charles Krauthammer’s column:
Why must you quote someone else’s opinion? If you have your own opinion, please share.
Krauthammer is a stupid jerk who doesn’t know his arse from his mouth at the best of times. If I wanted his opinion I would read the public washroom walls.
And today:
“In Moscow, a high-ranking security official said Tuesday that he had received intelligence about Georgian-planned terrorist attacks on Russian soil.”
http://tinyurl.com/57m73a
Boy, Dick Cheney has to be pissed that the Russians are stealing all his best lines!
Bobbo, The John Grisham book I’m talking about is non-fiction. An Innocent Man.
Kelpie, it’s OK. I was just quoting someone’s response to Tropic Thunder.
Is it just me, or does Bush sound a lot like Kim Jong Il lately? He spews pointless arrogant rhetoric and makes a fool of himself on the international stage.
I never trust(any one source)of what I hear on the news anyway. Whoever tells it, always has their own axe to grind.The real truth here is that these small countries are being used as pawns by the bigger ones for their own agendas. JUST LIKE ALWAYS. There are NO good guys. Only flag wavers who support their “us” against the others’ “them”.
President Putin and his puppet Med-whatever DO want to prove that Russia is BACK, so why give them the chance? Silly Georgians.
#53 “What would NATO do? Russia is part of NATO, but Georgia is not.”
And when did Russia gain NATO membership?
You win joke of the week contest!
something you all should know
who is behind the Support and armed Georgia its Israel ………… why because she want to bomb Iran from Georgia
shit Israel