HERSH: There was a meeting. Among the items considered and rejected — which is why the New Yorker did not publish it, on grounds that it wasn’t accepted — one of the items was why not…
There was a dozen ideas proffered about how to trigger a war. The one that interested me the most was why don’t we build — we in our shipyard — build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats. Put Navy seals on them with a lot of arms. And next time one of our boats goes to the Straits of Hormuz, start a shoot-up. Might cost some lives. And it was rejected because you can’t have Americans killing Americans. That’s the kind of — that’s the level of stuff we’re talking about. Provocation. But that was rejected. So I can understand the argument for not writing something that was rejected — uh maybe. My attitude always towards editors is they’re mice training to be rats.
But the point is jejune, if you know what that means. Silly? Maybe. But potentially very lethal. Because one of the things they learned in the incident was the American public, if you get the right incident, the American public will support bang-bang-kiss-kiss. You know, we’re into it. …What happened in the Gulf was, in the Straits, in early January, the President was just about to go to the Middle East for a visit. So that was one reason they wanted to gin it up. Get it going. Look, is it high school? Yeah. Are we playing high school with you know 5,000 nuclear warheads in our arsenal? Yeah we are. We’re playing, you know, who’s the first guy to run off the highway with us and Iran.
FYI
Must have gotten stuck in the spam filter, bu I had a post up with links to all of your previous posts predicting war with Iran. A search for Hersh or Iran will get you started. You guys were saying this at least as far back as 2005.
[MikeN- no one edited your post- that would be a conspiracy theory – ed.]
By the way what happened to the draft the left was predicting?
Oh, I get it. Hersh=infallible. Riight.
Thanks for clarifying that Mr. Fusion. (or is that Mr. Hersh?)
“you can’t have Americans killing Americans.”
I’m sure that make Pat Tillman feel better.
J/P=?
The problem with this source is that it as creditable as any other that tells large lies to attract attention.
Anyone that takes it seriously has a problem. They are at least as gulible and inclined to believe whatever they want to be true as Bush is.
#37. If you want to post, fine, but at least try to make sense. Your comment makes no sense. It sounds like a 3 year old wrote it. I’ll just bet you voted for Bush twice, which would completely invalidate just about anything that comes from what passes for your brain.
#34 “By the way what happened to the draft the left was predicting?”
Right before the Dems took the House a Dem introduced a bill to reinstate the draft. The Repub majority shot it down.
Ed, I made a post, and it said it was trapped by the spam filter, and that a moderator would look at it and maybe activate it. Hasn’t happened.
“you can’t have Americans killing Americans.”
Remember 9-11
#32, McCullough
I agree and to add to that, it shows that there are some good people in government who are patriotic enough to get the word out. Exposing criminal behavior such as this may be the only way they can stop it.
Yes, thank you for adding the core of what I meant to write. A tip of the hat.
#34, Lyin’ Mike,
By the way what happened to the draft the left was predicting?
Good question. The wing nuts in Congress torpedoed the idea as their sons might end having to serve.
#35, Cmon
Oh, I get it. Hersh=infallible. Riight.
I never said that. Unless you have proof he is wrong though, I see no reason to disbelieve him. Unless you are trying to make a point other than the one between your ears and up.
#35, John,
I’m sure that make[s] Pat Tillman feel better.
Very good point.
#37, Deowll
The problem with this source is that it as creditable as any other that tells large lies to attract attention.
You put Hersh in the same class as Cheney and Bush? That IS an insult. Not evidence, but still an insult.
***
No one has yet to offer anything to refute Hersh. Why? Many claim that he is a poor journalist, he fakes his sources, he invents incidents. So why can’t someone provide some information that shows him to be wrong?
Seymour Hersh is one of the greatest journalist of our age. He has sources most journalists can only dream of.
#39 – Paddy-O
>>The Repub majority shot it down.
Heck yes! Those chickenhawks can’t have their OWN kids going to the wars they start. Dang! They might get hurt!
# 11 #10 – Why not? Because they didn’t sign a treaty saying they wouldn’t make em & then start making them?
Not because they did not sign the treaty but because it was the US, Britain, and other Western states that clandestinely helped Israel steal weapon-making technology.
#44 “Heck yes! Those chickenhawks can’t have their OWN kids going to the wars they start. Dang! They might get hurt!”
Actually, the reason they shot it down is that when we kept the draft after WWII, two Dem presidents took advantage of it and sent over 80,000 American men to their deaths. This caused a lot of problems and resentment as these guys didn’t want to be in war as they were draftees.
Congrats to Ah Yea and more to Mr Fusion. Ah Yea disagreed and provided a site. Mr Fusion showed Ah Yea’s site to be without merit.
What are we left with? I assume the Hersh piece is “close to” the truth if not right on. It could indeed very easily be a misremembered or slightly fudged expansion on any brain storming session on what strategic options facing our country might be. The fact that it concludes with “Americans don’t kill Americans” makes the process almost look appropriate==OR==why shouldn’t Hersh name this Hero who got Cheney to come back to earth? Although in truth, maybe giving us his name for this patriotic input would be enough to get him fired?
But over-arching this is the sheeple/gullible stupidity the right wing nuts show in this thread. Why in the world would anyone defend this administration==the most secretive we have had outside of FDR during the war? The most lying and manipulative we have EVER had? Why do that? None of you “know” any of the actors, so it is just your fascist love of authority, or maybe your love of Republican Figure Heads, we’ll have to see your knee jerk reactions to when Obama goes into Afghanistan to figure that one out.
And I guess about 30% of Americans graze on the same grass you do. Embarrassing.
I so prefer the nude cyclists over this.
#46 – Paddy-O
You wanna fight a war, you gotta have a draft.
End of discussion.
#49 – I thought we were fighting 2 wars right now… AND losing less men than the prior 2 wars… Hmmm…
Seems that your theory is somewhat lacking…
#50 – Paddy-O
We’re also losing the wars.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?
Good points. “To fight a war” you also need to raise taxes. “To fight a war” you also need a congressional approval on point?
So, by definition, we aren’t in a war. In fact, we are in a police action and misusing our military to not accomplish this.
Isn’t it clear that the reduced violence in Iraq is simply a matter of bribery and the increasing presence of the Taliban in Afghanistan is because we aren’t fighting there?
Just “look.” Not hard to miss.
Wingnuts on all sides of this. Why does skepticism of the God of Journalism Sy Hersh imply love of Bush/Cheney/fascism? By the way, God Hersh predicted a nuclear strike on Iran based on his unimpeachable sources as long ago as 2005. I guess he could still be right, but time’s running out unless it’s already planned for the Obama administration. He’s been drumming this beat for a while now, and is looking less and less credible. Is that defense of Bush/Cheney? No, but being skeptical of Hersh is taken by the progressive wingnuts as support of everything they hate. Geez.
And then the personal insults. Pointy head? Thanks again for pointing that out Mr Fusion. And Tomas? bobbo? You’re apparently incapable of rational thought, too.
It’s been said before, but gullibility is not limited to the right. It’s quite distressing to see what’s happened to civil discourse, but it’s an inevitable consequence of the failed educational system and a media and government that feed on keeping the populace amused by partisan attacks to solidify their hold on power. Independent thought is in very short supply. Very sad.
#53–cmon==excellent. You are quite right, with only a “quibble.” There is a line between being skeptical of a story that criticizes a subject versus defending the subject. That line is not clear in this thread. However, if you have paid attention to MikeN, to a lesser degree Paddy, and ever lesser to Ah Yea, you will see them tending to defend Bushco so their skepticism of Hersh is “suspect.”
Painting with broad brushes here, as are you. Reminds me of the elephants in Thailand. A conscious product, or is there a real artist pulling our tails?
Bobbo, I think you’ve just proved his point.
#50 Paddy
It depends on which front the losses are coming. The US is losing more troops in Afghanistan than it is in Iraq (by week).
Your allies (yes, you have some) have been saying “The war’s over here!” for almost 6 years now. Skip Iran, the Shiites will eventually get power back. Afghanistan and Pakistan need the focus.
#51 “We’re also losing the wars.MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?”
No. I don’t think they are winnable. They are stupid, just like the the Korean & Vietnam wars.
We are just losing A LOT less men in the current conflict due to a more professionally trained and lead force.
BTW – Remember we are still deployed to a Dem Presidents war zone, over 50 years later…
Why aren’t the Dems in congress cutting funding for that too?
#57, Cow-Paddy,
We are just losing A LOT less men in the current conflict due to a more professionally trained and lead force.
AND overwhelming air power plus very superior equipment.
#58 “AND overwhelming air power plus very superior equipment.”
Like we had in Vietnam. Unfortunately, in Vietnam
our forces weren’t allowed to “shut down” North Vietnam. Artificial lines drawn as to where we were allowed to attack, etc.
Same in Korea. Truman wouldn’t let his general’s neutralize Chinese forces. Result, our troops are still in harms way 50 years later.
Mr Fusion, my point is that there are no “facts”, just allegation and innuendo that remain unconfirmed.
I guess I erred–your boy Hersh’s article appeared in the New Yorker in April of 2006 not in 2005 (maybe you’d prefer to read the original instead of CNN’s interpretation):
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/04/17/060417fa_fact?currentPage=1
Re-reading it, he falls shy of “predicting” the use of nukes, but he certainly left many with the impression that Cowboy Bush and company were itching to use a B61 or two, and that (since they are apparently unrestrained and omnipotent) no one could stop them. His sources led him to believe that an attack was imminent. His article did its job–it riled up the progressives pretty good, but did any of it come to pass? How much of his description of the discussions is true? How much was merely innuendo with a clear partisan purpose? Difficult to determine. This is why I have trouble buying anything that he writes. You, on the other hand, believe everything he writes/says because it validates your world view. I guess we disagree.
#61, Cow-Paddy,
You lost your bullshit arguments about Hersh so now you have to change the subject to a Democrat President screwed up. You are such an effen a**hole. Your vision of history is so tainted by bullshit you have no idea of what you write !!!
#63 – I’m sorry. What point did I get wrong? Perhaps you can revise history and “enlighten” us all. LOL
Yes, once the argument is lost, all that is left to you is cussing and frothing at the mouth… Sad
One of the reasons we have not had a strike against Iran is because of the reporting of Hersh. We know the Shrub admin makes up excuses to do what they want, and it has nothing to do with reality but “creating reality” as they have said.
There are many others reasons this attack hasn’t happened including the change in public attitudes, the change in the make up of congress.
As far as Vietnam goes, it’s not that our military wasn’t superior but were held back, it’s that they just don’t know how to handle guerrilla warfare and win, not that anyone does. Paddy, do you know about the Pentagon Papers or do you just ignore the conclusions – that we could not have won in Vietnam anyway. Please don’t act the old grizzled veteran who knows we could have won that war for profit “if only.” It’s a sad site to see someone live in that delusion.
And to actually see a quote from a stated neo-con used as evidence to refute Hersh is a joke. Tisk tisk. It’s like using a Nazi saying there was no holocost to refute the holocost.
If you want to know exactly what danger we are in in America now, read Little Brother by Cory Doctorow. Remember, Cheney, Bush, et. al. just want to make a profit and don’t care how they do it. Oil is a convenient means to an ends and so is terrorism.