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We’ve seen stories about how the Air Force academy and Pentagon seem to have been taken over by fundamentalists. This should be no surprise. Fighting for the freedoms that are slipping away. |
Atheist soldier sues Army for ‘unconstitutional’ discrimination
Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist. […] He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.
[…]His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.
In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.
“I think it’s utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional,” Hall said.
Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.
Found by Hop.
Crusades anyone?
The military better train the good ol’ southern boys and other thumpers to leave the atheists alone since they are having a hard time finding and keeping soldiers the way it is.
Our military is being destroyed by this administration. We now issue 10% of all recruits moral waivers on one end, and on the other, religious extremists are vying with racists and other wackjobs to use the disruptive environment to proselytize and remake the face of the military.
The US military is a Christian Organization – so what’s the problem?
#2, hyperbole is fun. Get a clue, there have always been commanders who use their personal moral beliefs as justification for their policy decisions. In 1995 I had a battalion commander tell me why he didn’t want people having sex in the barracks was not because of some sort of liability concern (or something else reasonable), but because he thought sex between unmarried people was immoral. And the military is destroyed compared to… say the late 70s very early 80s when it was polluted with the bums and drug addicts that were still hanging around after the last idiotic war we decided to involve ourselves with?
I was in boot camp in 95-96 and I saw none of this. Hell assigning a bodyguard? that’s laughable. But then again religion is probably a great tool for the military. Keeps the people stupid and ready to fight for any cause that’s worded just right (or written in some book)
In Canada, this doesn’t seem to be a problem.
http://tinyurl.com/59voqt
#5, over the years, I just concluded that there is something about the military that attracts the more superstitious crowd.
In practice, the military is probably as discriminatory as the rest of the U.S., possibly more so due to the ongoing stress. However, take a look at this long list of available headstone symbols for military personnel.
http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp
Note: They’ve got atheist covered, but not agnostic. I’d suggest adding a big question mark for agnostics.
#8, why would an atheist put anything on his headstone besides his name and birth/death dates? Seems to be contrary to the point of atheism to make a point of displaying affiliation.
#9 – Sea Lawyer,
A better question might be why an atheist would feel a need for real estate after death. Or, why an atheist would feel a need for any form of commemoration. I know I don’t. I think though that the military feels the need to put something there. So, they give a choice for atheists.
#6, That makes me proud to be a Canadian. We seem to be leading the world in the true meaning of being free.
In the Marines, you only have to believe in your M16 and obey the commands of a superior without hesitation.
#11 JimR
Congratulations on having the most creepy and demeaning definition of freedom.
#13, …and what exactly do you think that definition is?
just chalk up the military as another cult……..
The only difference between bin Laden’s goal and that of the right wing christian’s is the name of the religion they are promoting.
Both want everyone in the world to be ruled by their own religion – at any cost.
They may as well put up billboards that say, “Believe in my god, or I’ll kill you.”
Let’s see. The kid was a Baptist decided to stop beleiving. People were mean to him so the Army gave him a body guard.
He would have had the same problem at home. Who would have issued the body guard there?
#16 – enuf_is_enuf,
I did see a bumper sticker that said, “Be nice to America or we’ll export democracy to your country too.”
america is unfortunately destined to become a theocracy
the bible thumpers will win, and the constitution will be scrapped in favor of faith-based abomination akin to the holy roman empire
all non-christians and catholics will face extreme discrimination if not deportation
no more freedom of speech, or the press
yes the american dream will die at the hands of fundamentalist christians
mark my words
This doesn’t pass the sniff test. The military does not discriminate on the basis of religion. You can be a Satanist and serve in the U.S. Military. You will not be turned down from military service for being a Satanist. To my knowledge, Satanists have served as high up as Lt. Colonel / Full Bird Colonel.
Regardless, the guy could have been “discriminated” against, but it wasn’t because of military policy or procedures. It was due to some narrow-minded individuals in his unit and there’s no explaining how much of a model soldier he was. He could have been insubordinate at times and it could have cost him his promotions. Who knows.
Civilians have a hard time understanding though that a person who serves in the military has their constitutional rights abridged because when you are serving in the military, you are literally government property. You can have you pay docked for getting a sunburn. I’m not kidding. And the charge would be “Destruction of Goverment Property”.
Most, if not all, organizations civilian or government have policies which forbid this sort of discrimination, but incidents still happen.
If this guy really wanted the matter resolved all he had to do was go to the Inspector General’s Office, the JAG Office, or see his Atheist “priest” to lodge a complaint.
Sounds like someone just wants some publicity.
#19 grog
You must have had to scrape away a lot to cobwebs from your brain before coming up with that load of grog.
#19, the current interpretation of the first amendment to completely expunge all references to religion from the public square is a rather modern one. In any case, I’m sure the Constitution is in much greater danger from villains other than religion.
I never understood the point of cemeteries and the like. It always seeemed easier and less wasteful to be cremated and save the realestate. i mean.. once you’re dead, what’s t point of spending what money you/your family have left on a plot of land, a burial, and a sveral thousand dollar box that’s just going to rot away in the ground?
#19 – grog – …the bible thumpers will win…
I SURRENDER!!! Are you by any chance French?
Mayonnaise will cleanse you of all sin. You were born a sinner and only through Mayo will you be pure again! Whenever you are having sinful thoughts, simply rub yourself with Mayonnnaise and all your thoughts will turn to holiness again!
Regardless, the guy could have been “discriminated” against, but it wasn’t because of military policy or procedures. It was due to some narrow-minded individuals in his unit
I do believe that is his point. He was discriminated against AND the commanding officer did nothing to stop the discrimination. That is wrong under military regulations AND the federal laws of the United States.
Civilians have a hard time understanding though that a person who serves in the military has their constitutional rights abridged
Wrong. A person can not sign away ANY right. Being expected to follow orders is not the same as giving up or having rights abridged.
you are literally government property.
Try reading the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments.
You can have you pay docked for getting a sunburn. I’m not kidding.
More “bullshit”. Of course, if you have a link to a specific case I would love to check it out.
Trust me, there are limits to the curtailment of freedoms any military unit may do. That doesn’t mean they can’t try, but it also means they won’t always manage to make it stick. This case is just such an example.
Most commanders get away with the crap simply because they pull rank. Complaining to a higher up or JAG has its own repercussions. Don’t confuse what some commanders do get away with with the loss of “rights” individual members do have. After this case makes its way through the courts his military career is over. His record has this huge black mark that will never be expunged.
26, You obviously never served in the military and are arguing out of ignorance.
The reason why military service members have their constitutional rights abridged is because the job deals with life and death matters. I realize that from your liberal slant you may take the opportunity to rip this last comment apart, but for the most part that is the reason WHY constitutional rights are abridged.
Without getting into great detail since you seem to think very highly of yourself on military do’s and don’ts is that certain things you can normally do as a civilian will land you in jail, get you a demotion, or have your pay docked in the military.
I already conceded that the guy probably did get discriminated against by specific individuals and not the military. That being said, and as I said before, if this guy really wanted the matter resolved all he had to do was go to the Inspector General’s Office, the JAG Office, or see his Atheist “priest” to lodge a complaint. Or simply go up the chain of command. There’s more to the story than they’re reporting so you’re making some assumptions about the guy and his near “perfect” track record.
I’ve also said that you can be a Satanist and serve in the U.S. Military. They don’t discriminate on that.
Let’s be crystal clear. In the military you do not have the right to free speech, body piercings, nor can you not show up for work because you don’t feel like it. Exercising your “right” to free speech, not showing up for work, or simply being insubordinate can land you in military jail and have your pay reduced / demoted (depending on the situation and frequency). These are things you can do as a civilian with relative ease without fear of being jailed. Most civilians risk being fired, but that’s about it. Sun burns and body piercings can get your pay reduced because the official charge is destruction of government property. In the past few years, some officers are fairly lax and they simply give a verbal warning to remove such things or to not get a sunburn again. But if the officer catches that person doing it gain, then they failed to follow orders (another punishable offense). What? You r hair is too long? You’re out of uniform. Wow! Imagine the possibilities.
If you want to argue this as BS, then you’re free to do so, but you’re doing so out of ignorance. That much is clear. Anyone who has served in the military will tell you this is true.
As for military career being over, most careers within any organization are “over” when you rock the boat and make what appears to be frivolous accusations which is what appears to be the case here. There’s more to this guy than what the media is letting on.
#27, guyver,
The reason why military service members have their constitutional rights abridged is because the job deals with life and death matters.
More bullshit. So do coal miners, policemen, firefighters, nurses, paramedics, air traffic controllers, and truck drivers. Some would add school teachers and short order cooks.
I realize that from your liberal slant you may take the opportunity to rip this last comment apart, but for the most part that is the reason WHY constitutional rights are abridged.
My political leanings have nothing to do with the truth. Your Republican leadership is also irrelevant.
Let’s be crystal clear. In the military you do not have the right to free speech, body piercings, nor can you not show up for work because you don’t feel like it.
You are partly right on free speech and totally right on body piercings and being absent. Those, however were NOT part of your original bullshit comments and are not covered by the Constitution, and may be .
Every military person, officer or enlisted, does have the right of free speech. They may however, only exercise it so the uniform is NOT associated with the speech. Even adding your rank to a signed private document is wrong and punishable. Every soldier, airman, sailor, or marine may write their Congressman at any time. They may even write the local newspaper or stand on a corner and hand out leaflets while on leave. All provided they do so as a civilian.
Questioning or disrespecting a commander is NOT free speech.
Sun burns and body piercings can get your pay reduced because the official charge is destruction of government property.
Body piercings are not allowed in many professions. Nor are body piercings, tattoos, or other permanent / semi permanent body adornments allowed. That is a no brainer and is not covered by the Constitution. A sunburn though is natural and I did ask you you provide a link to a case suggesting that it isn’t. If a soldier purposely was sunburned in an effort to make himself ill and avoid duty then yes, they might be charged.
Regardless, the government does NOT own you. They don’t even rent you. A soldier is under contract to provide services to the military for a specified term of service in return for certain benefits.
You r hair is too long? You’re out of uniform.
That is because the military has uniform regulations that you agreed to when you signed your enlistment papers. Again, there is no Constitutional right for a person to grow their hair a certain length.
Anyone who has served in the military will tell you this is true.
And the Army needs the sheep like you to stand in front of the bullets heading towards the Generals. Idiots that can’t think independently. Idiots that accept every word from their Captain as if God himself spoke.
As I pointed out before, complaining to a higher up will very rarely ever get satisfaction and almost always see even more injury to the complainer. JAGs and “pastors”, can’t order officers to do what they don’t want to do. Only their commanders can do that and often the ombudsman would have to go pretty high to find a willing commander that will interfere with a subordinates decision making. Being “in the right” does not always afford justice.
There’s more to this guy than what the media is letting on.
Why? His rights have been violated. He has every right in the world to seek redress from a court. If you want to suggest he has something else going on then say so. A frivolous comment that There’s more to this guy than what the media is letting on. is bullshit until you have something to back yourself up with. Something you seldom have ever done here at DU.
28,
LOL. Again you want to apply common sense to the military system and are still arguing out of ignorance.
You think you have a right to have purple hair in the military? Nope. Out of uniform. You want to wear five rings on your hand? Nope out of uniform. You think you have a right to subscribe to the High Times or walk around in a T-Shirt with a Marijuana Leaf on it while “off duty”? Nope, you have drug paraphernalia and there’s technically no such thing as “off duty” when you’re in the military.
You think you can tell the military “NO” when you don’t agree to being immunized against Anthrax or whatever the new thing is? Nope. They put you in jail for not following orders (the implied message here is you don’t have a right to say what can or cannot go into your body while serving in the military). But yet they don’t “own” you as you put it? LOL. And who’s to say they don’t use different types of vaccines to see what the effects are on troops? Troops don’t have a need to know, but yet the military can do these “undocumented” experiments (and they have).
You think you have a right to get a 2nd job while in the military? Nope, you have to ask permission from your command.
Like it or not, the military has been the exception. You’re obviously clueless about the military. BTW, I’m Libertarian and not Republican. I’m also explaining how the military works and I’m not trying to “defend” it.
The problem is you’re too dense to understand because you’ve never been in the military and are somehow trying to argue out of some notion of common sense you may seem to think applies to the military. I’m here to tell you the military doesn’t think like that in those matters.
Questioning and not complying with a superior’s UNLAWFUL order is taught and is expected behavior of all subordinates. Disrespecting a superior can result in loss of pay or demotion (depends on how severe). You can’t tell your superior what you think nor can you tell them to F off.
I’m not speaking in theory. I’m speaking from experience. You have to ask your superior permission to speak freely and you can only do so IF they grant you permission to do so. I’m not even talking about how military service people interact with civilians (a new tangent you’re bringing up). I’m talking about you have absolutely no right to free speech while serving in the military. Those who think they do are in for a rude awakening. This is another example of your ignorance of military matters. Does that stop some people from trying? Nope. But again, there are consequences.
On the matter of body piercings, if you have your tongue, ear, or nipple pierced you will be told to take them off or you may be written up. Obviously they don’t do a body piercing check on military personnel, but if you’re caught with a tongue piercing in uniform, you are suspect for everything else and the command has the authority to check. If you’re a woman, you can have earrings, but they cannot be “flashy”. I know of no civilian employer that makes such demands. A woman is only allowed shoulder length hair and she cannot have long nails nor have too much make up. On the matter of tattoos (a new topic you’re bringing up), the military will still take you if you have tattoos… but they don’t usually want you getting new ones due to sanitation issues and other complications. Military personnel still get them. If you get sick or ill from complications or you cannot do your duties as a result, then you get into trouble.
BTW, nowhere is it written in one’s enlistment paperwork where they are explicitly obligating themselves to follow the dress code. Why? Because the obligation is to follow the lawful order of your superiors. You are bound by all of that via the military regulations (something officers despise when a new recruit gets too acquainted with the regs because it can empower subordinates to question a superior’s orders… rarely done unless the person is considered a “trouble makers” aka Sea Lawyers.)
LOL, sheep like me? And what am I blindly embracing? I’m simply telling you how the military operates from the perspective of someone who’s been in it, while you’re arguing out of ignorance. Good one.
The reason why there’s more to this guy than is being reported, is that he had ways of getting the matter addressed that would get a quick resolution if his accusations were true. But you’re too ignorant of military matters to understand that so it seems you’re probably basing all of your “military knowledge” off of what Hollywood tells you. As I pointed out, you have many alternatives other than just the JAG office. Going up the chain is the right of every military service member. Using your scenario, at some point up in the chain, the good old boy system stops. Last but not least, the guy could have written his congress person if he suspected he could not trust his chain of command. That’s the “unthinkable” because that does get people in hot water. But your accusations had better be true. Otherwise you’re the one in hot water. People are also told they should go through their chain before ever righting a congress person, but some don’t. If you have a valid gripe and you write a congress person, that’s pretty much the “nuclear” option because it gets results. Whatever the case, this guy appears to have ulterior motives and you’re biting hook line and sinker for what the article is helping you to assume. You also do not understand how powerful a medical officer or pastor can be. They can have the power to trump a superior officer if the situation warrants it. That’s called power of authority in case you didn’t know that.
Lastly on the matter of Sunburns, you will either run into people who have seen someone getting punished for it or not. It is not something that will be documented in a “case” because it’s handled in what is referred to as a Summary Article 15. It’s only maintained on your records at your unit. When you go to your next command, they dispose of it. It is not done on a company or field grade article 15. BTW, the individuals who almost always get in trouble for the sunburns are almost always the new recruits (late teens or early 20s). Not the ones who have been in for a while. Hence another reason why it’s handled as a summary article 15. But I’m sure you knew all of that. LOL.
It’s not that I’m trying to be defensive over this. I’m telling you how the military works. For some strange reason, either your ego or your stupidity on the matter (maybe both?) is getting in the way and you’re trying to come up with all sorts of analogies or use of common sense. I’m here to tell you the military doesn’t think like that. For better or worse, that’s how it is. But you still want to argue over something you have absolutely no clue about. Go figure.
#29, guyver,
Obviously you have no idea what you are arguing about.
You think you have a right to have purple hair in the military? Nope. Out of uniform. …
So what is your point? There is a Constitutional Right to have purple hair?
You think you have a right to subscribe to the High Times
Yes. Courts have repeatedly ruled the military may not censor or stop members from reading any information they like. The only exception would be material calling for the violent overthrow of the legal government or conspiracy to commit a crime. The exact same as in civilian life.
You think you can tell the military “NO” when you don’t agree to being immunized against Anthrax or whatever the new thing is? Nope.
Wrong again. You do not have to subject your body to an immunization if you don’t want it. You might be discharged, but you do not have to be immunized. See the next comment.
They put you in jail for not following orders
What about ordering a female soldier to accept sex against her will? Would they throw her in jail for disobeying an order? No soldier is expected follow an illegal order nor may the military order a person to subject their body to something.
Troops don’t have a need to know, but yet the military can do these “undocumented” experiments (and they have).
And they have been successfully sued. Any soldier is entitled to ask, and usually is required to inquire, about the safety of any item they are unsure about. Until they have been briefed on the safety they may legally refuse to participate.
BTW, I’m Libertarian and not Republican.
A Libertarian is just another name for a fucked up Republican who prefers a different stench under the guise of promoting more repugnacy.
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geeze, what a moran. Why bring up this crap.
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LOL, sheep like me? And what am I blindly embracing?
Well, lets go back to your previous posts. You wrote:
The reason why military service members have their constitutional rights abridged is because the job deals with life and death matters.
Which is total bullshit.
You also wrote:
You can have you pay docked for getting a sunburn. I’m not kidding. And the charge would be “Destruction of Goverment Property”.
Neither statement is true yet they are commonly believed because that is what their boot camp Sargent tells them.
Lastly on the matter of Sunburns, you will either run into people who have seen someone getting punished for it or not.
Which translates into you can’t produce anything. As I pointed out before and you allude to later, commanders do this and get away with it because they can. That does NOT make the actions legal and if the soldier complained the offending comment would be removed from the file. The Sargent could possibly face discipline, depending upon what happened to the soldier. BUT the military is not legally entitled to dock a soldier’s pay without a hearing.
It’s not that I’m trying to be defensive over this. I’m telling you how the military works.
No. You are trying to spin your way out of your bullshit comments. What happens and what is the law requires are not always the same. Most of your bullshit is true but has nothing to do with your loss of Constitutional Rights or the Government owns your body.
But you still want to argue over something you have absolutely no clue about. Go figure.
Only I don’t use my military experience to prove a point. I use facts. Those of us who don’t brag about our service are not stupid. Those who claim to be experts because of their service usually aren’t.
I could write reams about how asshats like you cost the lives of good soldiers. So full of bullshit you couldn’t learn anything. What angers me here is that you don’t understand that. You never could and you never will.