Cisco’s immigration law firm audited for improper behavior by U.S. Department of Labor | NetworkWorld.com Community — In other words if you are an Amercian, screw yourself. Allegedly.
The U.S. Department of Labor is auditing all the permanent labor certification applications filed by Cisco’s immigration law attorneys at Fragomen – Del Rey – Bernsen & Loewy LLP.
The purpose of the audit is to determine whether the nation’s largest immigration law firm improperly instructed clients to contact Fragomen before hiring apparently qualified U.S. workers.
Such activity would be considered improper attorney involvement in the consideration of U.S. worker applicants.
U.S. Department of Labor regulations specifically prohibit an employer’s immigration attorney or agent from participating in considering the qualifications of U.S. workers who apply for positions for which certification is sought, unless the attorney is normally involved in the employer’s routine hiring process.
Found by Rob Sanchez.
#34–Mustard==care to be more specific? As I have often posted, yes, sometimes I stretch my position a bit to draw the controversy, but I very much believe what I post. It also amuses me how much people read into what I post with issues even contrary to what I say. Some people have knee-jerk unthinking reactions to words.
So, I reviewed post #33. Everything looks pretty solid to me.
#35 – Bobo
Naw, 2/3 of your diatribe against me drags in that same, tired old anti-religion schtick.
Get over it, will you? You have your beliefs, I have mine. Not necessary to yank out the old religious ad hominems in every thread about illegal immigration, space travel, wireless routers, constitutional law, and every other place that it doesn’t belong.
Are you obsessed with religion? Or is it that you frequently have no rebuttal other than “ahhh, you just think that because you thump the Bible”?
#36–Mustard==it takes two to have an argument. If it has become a diatribe it is because you present the same stimulus without “responding” to the better conversations offered you. YOU bring it upon yourself.
I think illegal immigration is harmful because it is taking jobs from Americans and is hurting the middle and lower working class in America. I have said that ALL countries have this common interest. J has some loopy position that taking jobs from Americans is a good thing and cites websites to support his position. YOU say its a racist position because that is what you believe.
Now with J, I can argue economic theory and look for other websites or even change my mind.
With you, there is nothing to check. YOU BELIEVE. The only analysis left is to look at your belief system. Thats why I say it is a bad spear with which to attack your opponents.
As I said, keep your beliefs but stop inflicting your beliefs on other people. You will convince very few people with the bludgeon of repetition. Keep your spicy sense of humor, I like it. Just add some more substance.
You can do much, much better than you do. Give it a shot.
Here you go, Bobster. Try it out?
追腹 or 追い腹
Mustard, that was fun. One of the impediments to Chinese and Japanese culture is the difficulty of their language. Imagine what they could have accomplished if they just spoke and wrote Engrish?
So, I found many Japanese passages with those symbols and the subject seemed to be “forgiveness.”
Babblefish translates them as “Pursuit Stomach.”
Well, you gave being relevant a try and for that you are commended. Try English.
Ritual suicide (seppuku), Bobster. (切腹
Now get over the religion thing, huh?
#40–Mustard==Myself and most others will give up posting on religion about the same time you give up posting your beliefs backed up with nothing more. You will have to exercise some christian charity and give us time to back down the mountain once you stop heaping the BS.
#40, Mustard,
See your doctor. Seriously dude. You’ve gone off the deep end. You need help.
I’m agreeing with Bobbo on this one. You are only posting bullshit beliefs. Others have asked you to back up your points and you only come back sarcasm and accusations of racism.
It’s called trolling.
#42 – Fissile One
Well, OK. My suggestion to Bobbo that he might want to consider seppuku was just an idea. It wasn’t based on any hard evidence.
>>Myself and most others will give up posting on
>>religion about the same time you give up
>>posting your beliefs
Don’t try blowing smoke up my ass, son. I have NEVER “posted my beliefs” on this forum, other than to say that I’m not an Atheist. And, unlike the Atheists here, I have never ridiculed, lampooned, threatened, or disrespected the Atheist beliefs in any way.
So STFU.
Mustard, you are right that it is racism that brings fuels the illegal immigrant argument, though for some people it’s not having a job.
My question is what is wrong with that? Would you support letting 300 million Bangladeshis into the country?
#43–Mustard==my suggestion was much more psychological than that. On the issue of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION you have posted too many times that it is your BELIEF (remember that word “belief”) that most people opposing immigration do so on the basis of racist ideology. Pedro and I both claim that is not true in our cases, but you don’t relent, you keep posting that is what you BELIEVE.
Thats religious thinking. Don’t respond to facts or contrary evidence, just keep believing what you want to belief. Its BS and you should stop.
The only religious aspect of the question, is the “way” you think, or actually, the way you respond.
Its a serious “idea” you ought to think about.
#44 – MikeN
>>Mustard, you are right that it is racism that
>>brings fuels the illegal immigrant argument
Uh-oh. I’m on the same side as Lyin’ Mike! Shocking!
>>though for some people it’s not having a job.
Well, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, the jobs that Americans are being “deprived” of are not Chief Software Architect at Microsoft. They’re dirty, dangerous, low-paying, shitty jobs with no bennies that the majority of Americans wouldn’t touch.
>>Would you support letting 300 million
>>Bangladeshis into the country?
I’m not supporting letting in 300 million of anyone. I’m just saying that there must be a more effective and humane way of dealing with illegal immigrants than the current non-solution. Building a multi-billion dollar fence across 1/3 of the Mexican border, and hit-or-miss INS raids on farms and meat-packing plants to deport the illegals obviously isn’t an answer.
And I’m also saying that the more vociferous the complaint about illegal aliens, the higher the bigotry quotient of the complainer.
#45 – Bobbo
>>Thats religious thinking.
Oh, STFU.
When I believe something, it’s because I’m a bible-thumping, snake-handling, faith-healing, tongues-speaking sheeple.
When you believe something, it’s because you’re a hip-and-happening, cutting-edge, free-thinking, bohemian nonconformist.
Let me reiterate: STFU.
When I don’t post some internet “proof” for a proposition as self-evident as “fear and loathing of foreigners is a form of xenophobia”, I’m a religious fanatic.
When you don’t provide any evidence for your economic “theories” of why illegal aliens are bringing us to the eve of destruction, you’re a hip-and-happening, cutting-edge, free-thinking, bohemian nonconformist, with non-God on your side.
Your pretzel logic is killing me, Bobbolina.
>They’re dirty, dangerous, low-paying, shitty jobs with no bennies that the majority of Americans wouldn’t touch.
Yeah, these are the types of jobs I’m talking about, and for every one of these, the majority of the jobs are held by Americans(for now)
#50 – ‘dro
It’s ashame that you haven’t evolved enough to distinguish between modifying one’s position based on additional information, and flip-flopping.
Dumbya’s a flip-flopper:
http://tinyurl.com/55f2ng
On the other hand, reasonable people change their minds, not to play weathervane in the political winds, but based on gleaning information that they did not previously have.
Now go back to Kuzco.
@33 Bobbo
I studied abroad in Cape Town, South Africa. Between my second and third years of law school. I studied their constitution, read the newspaper every day. I picked South Africa so I could wander away from the Americans I was studying with and still understand what people were saying (and understand it well). I spent hours talking to locals. I studied the laws of apartheid, too.
I even somehow managed to date a beautiful Zulu woman (a professional flute player).
Thanks for thinking me intelligent and hoping better from me. But I’ll concede to be pretty ignorant about some things. I don’t think I do so actively. Comes naturally.
#53–Steve==I’m envious. I have traveled the world but not “lived” as an adult outside the USA. I learned to appreciate cappuccino at the Addis Abbaba airport coffee shop–a nickel a cup courtesy of the Italian Army. Took a motorcycle trip from Addis up the rift valley to Asmara. I would continue but I try not to post personal data.
Its no crime to be ignorant regardless of intelligence, education, and experience. Not so once one has been informed or “put on notice” as the legal profession says?
So=======drum roll=======what do you think of that newspaper ad?
#54 – Booboo
Ooooh, you’re such a worldly man! Are you sure you’re not the reincarnation of Ernest Hemingway?
#55–Mustard==thank you. Did you do much traveling once you got off your boat? I assume you have, but its not a certainty. You have too many areas of expertise not to have some wanderlust.
@54 Bobbo
Really, it’s a bit of a mess. I read all that was available at the link, but didn’t watch the videos (I’m at work).
If I kept track of all the facts correctly, it seems as though Cisco involved an immigration lawyer in the hiring practice even when American citizens were involved. I don’t know if it is mitigating that she didn’t seem to be acting in the capacity of an immigration lawyer for what she was doing for Cisco.
But I don’t understand why her?
Is she the best HR person in the land?
Is it her understanding that this wouldn’t look a bit odd in light of the DoL stance?
If she’s a lawyer in the field, she should know better.
But the rabblerouser (Huber) seemed to have an ax to grind.
Looking at the ad and only the ad, it looks like it could be ok (if it weren’t for M.E. Clark being involved in a temporary HR capacity).
I suppose I’ll wait until the story develops more, to hear the DoL’s findings.
#57–Steve==you are so mealymouthed and intentionally obtuse. I’ll bet you are an inhouse corporate type. Most likely in the tech business like Cisco and so actually conflicted about thinking straight?
You remind me of Steve Martin in that movie where he asks for a sign about something and the thunder and earthquake that follow is ignored.
Yes, take the ad without reference to the real world and you can stay ignorant. In fact, even if the meaning was expressly apparent, you could read each word individually and not understand anything at all?
Maybe I assume too much?
I wonder what percentage of foreign born workers in the US operations of Cisco is? Course in your view, that really wouldn’t prove anything would it. Just a coincidence, nothing to do with the advertising. Nothing to do with the Immigration Attorney.
Common sense often doesn’t stand up in a court of law. I guess over time it becomes completely irrelevant in a general sense as well.
You should have picked a less obvious case to go all legal on.
@59 Bobbo
I have pretty much zero experience in immigration law. I’ve had Constitutional Law and Arbitration and Business Law. That is to say that I’ve studied them, but have little applied use experience.
I’m not claiming authority. I’m claiming ambiguity and lack of experience.
And you’ve assumed too much. I’m a document attorney (grunt, contract worker) who aspires to work in IP law. I want to work primarily with copyrights, trademarks and small businesses. I like to work with passionate folk like artists and small business folk.
I’ll learn from following the story. If you were to show me a stat that 55% of Cisco employees were foreign workers I’d find that to be interesting. If the DoL finds some wrongdoing I’d be interested.
I’m familiar with many political codewords that politicians use in speeches to not distress people that don’t agree with those stances, but to assure the truebelievers that they are being represented.
I’m just not versed in the codewords for hiring to exclude Americans.
I’m not quite sure why you choose to use abrasive terms like ‘mealymouthed’ and ‘intentionally obtuse.’ I suppose you could just be one of those folks that gets too worked up over disagreements online.
#60–Steve==I’m not worked up at all, just having fun. Sharp elbows, lack of restraint, telling it straight, getting your attention, ===somewhere in there.
I just googled the issue and most items are about outsourcing future jobs to India. Not on this point.
Well–you are professionally unrelated to the Cisco matrix of issues so I am perplexed. The issue really one of “general experience” and common sense not some obscure matter of special informed knowledge.
Maybe you only have to be a pessimist or a grouch? What color is the sun in your sky?
I look forward to your insights on other threads should you find the time. //// bobbo.
PS==take your fees in stock options.
@61 Bobbo
Stock Options instead of fees is a pretty controversial area in ethics. Maybe after I can earn a steady income I’ll start taking more risks with my bar status.
And I’m quite an optimist and not at all grouchy.
Really I’m quite well read on alternative fuel issues, free speech, defamation, geek culture and African affairs. Outsourcing isn’t something I’ve stayed on top of. I know little more about outsourcing trends than I do about cutting edge fashion.
#63–Steve==ethics? Really? Now I know that “legal ethics” is actually “the law” for many purposes but not all. Is taking stock in payment legal or not. With that threshold then the remaining main issue is risk tolerance, cash flow needs, and the ability to foretell the future.
Get that crystal ball and start practicing.
I do a relatively a lot of hiring in my IT role at my current company. I’ve never heard of this rule about immigration lawyers participating or not participating, so I have no opinion on that. Perhaps Cisco was doing something wrong there–I just have no idea.
However, I’ve never viewed the statement that the applicant “must be legally authorized” to work without H1B sponsorship as a “code” for anything. It seems to me that if anything, it sounds anti-foreigner, not pro-foreigner. I’ve used the line myself in online job postings. (It might even be a standard drop-down choice on Monster.com, but my HR lady does those now so I don’t remember exactly.) The effect it had on our postings was that it reduced the resume spam from people in India looking to move to America for our job. We weren’t going to pay for their move. We weren’t going to pay the $5-10K per year for the sponsorship. We didn’t want to be bothered with all those applicants, so we said so. End of story.
On a separate issue in this thread, where is the evidence for the disappearing middle class? And what is the current definition from the doomsayers here about what constitutes a “middle class” person? What are teachers and waitresses and Best Buy employees and policemen and sales account executives and nurses and call center people and guys working at Jiffy Lube? Certainly not the upper class, but also certainly not the underclass about to revolt…
#64–Keith==I will skip the inference issue and go to your separate issue. Basically I think JCD is wrong in his statement at post #17 when saying “Generally the lower classes in the USA are very small, but because of the decimation of the middle class they are growing.”
I think He and You misperceive the numbers, or the quartile distribution of the lower, under, working, middle class in the USA. It is highly definitional though with lot of overlap in every case.
In general about half of the categories you named are lower class, and the other half only get to lower middle class.
For a quick overview, you might like to peruse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States#Traditional_middle_class
#65 – Bobster
>>I think He and You misperceive the numbers, or the
>>quartile distribution of the lower, under, working,
>>middle class in the USA. It is highly definitional
>>though with lot of overlap in every case.
So why don’t you englighten us, Bobster? Rather than using the term “definitional” ad nauseum, how about presenting the quartiles in 1950, 1975, 1995, and 2005?
I think it’s plain as day to anybody who gets out at all that the number of hedge fund millionaires is growing, the number of people who can’t make ends meet is growing, and the number of Ward-and-June-Cleaver types living in the middle is going down. (And before you bring up the religion shit yet AGAIN, yes that’s what I believe).
Feel free to disabuse me of that notion with some facts.
@63 Bobbo
Legal ethics aren’t the law, but they are binding on those of us that swear to abide by them. Big enough failures in following the ethics results in disbarment. I think taking stock instead of money is lawful, just sometimes runs against ethics (as you might not inform your client correctly if you have stock in the company).
I have too much student loan debt to take being disbarred!
#66–Gee Mustard==my post concludes with a wiki. Did you read it? Numbers are all there. I bring you cake up front without your having to ask and you want me to chew it for you?
I decline.