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# 63 pedro
“Takes one to single one out. ”
Yeah. You left out a word or two. It should be ” Takes one with knowledge to single one out who has none.” See pedro every day you too can learn something.
#63 pedro
“It only means they got out of inventions to support their brand of reality, nothing else.”
Quite right and well spotted.
#64–J==My position is that illegal immigration is bad because it takes jobs from Americans. Thats my opinion. You counter with the notion that it is a “fact” that illegals are good for the economy so I say you have the burden to show some evidence of your “fact.” Its not spoonfeeding me to ask to not be put on a snipe hunt. You know this, so why you use such a defective ploy is beyond me.
Where is your evidence? Its all in books and not on the internet huh? Gee, some folks with really puerile fantasies would say “LIAR!” but I say stop using the argument if you can’t back it up.
Finally, you sound rather silly to say that people without a job are better off because it keeps costs down. If lettuce should triple in cost because it costs that much to find a legal picker, then the market will adapt. Maybe less lettuce, more mechanization, a move to hydroponics==whatever. Its nonsense though to say that many and more all the time Americans should be out of work/under employed because it gives the other Americans cheaper crap.
Did you read that in one of your exclusive books or just make it up on the spot?
Bobbo –
You are a good example of a person with whom attempting to have a reasoned discussion is a complete waste of time. I might as well be trying to have a discussion with a water balloon. I provided you with two valid sources, yet you claim that there have been no sources made available to you, or that they are too old, or if you bother looking at them at all, you skim then finding selected paragraphs and phrases, take them out of context and then use them as ‘quotes’. I have shown evidence that the low cost wages paid to illegal and lower economic scale legal immigrants exceeds the costs of providing social services to them, that the direct economic benefits to you in lower priced everyday goods and services is huge, that ‘Americans’ losing jobs to these people is a fantasy, since the overall job loss due to higher non-immigrant labor costs far exceeds the gains in employment by the elimination of low wage jobs.
In the end, this is capitalism at work. Work available = people trying to fill those jobs.
As I said earlier, the problem may have been solved by the Bush administration and it’s moronic fiscal policies. The US economy is in such sorry shape that immigrants are starting to go back to their countries. Problem solved. Destroy the US economy so that people have no reason to come here. Brilliant thinking.
#62 – Bobbo
>>Its totally inconsistent to be against job
>>outsourcing and yet think it “adds to the
>>economy” to have an illegal alien take a job.
Has it occurred to you that the major difference between “illegals” (ie beaners) and the English, Polish, Irish, Jews, and all the other groups that are now red-blooded Murricans is that the former are illegal, whereas the latter were allowed much easier access to citizenship?
Hmm?
#69 – Mustard –
And white people from ‘acceptable’ countries are still given preferential treatment today under the visa system. there are about 10x as many visas available for white Europeans as there are for South Americans and Africans added together.
#68–Awake==frustrating isn’t it. I rejected both of your cites for not being too old, internally inconsistent and complete. I won’t repeat what you can read in my responses.
It would be a very rare economic program that didn’t hurt some people while helping others? I focus on who illegal workers hurt, the unemployed and underemployed and those having to work two jobs because of wage competition, and I don’t like it. You focus on generic “people” (including illegals I assume?) benefiting because costs are lower==a very general argument. You don’t seem to get the inconsistency you make that if you are unemployed the low costs don’t mean much.
Now, since you posted basically the same thing twice, as have I, we are talking past each other.
When I directly disagree with you, I am not ignoring your evidence. Responding more directly to what I posted, as I did with you, might help resolve some of this.
69–Mustard==I don’t think the Irish et al were illegal. Weren’t they all processed thru Ellis Island? Some sent back if they had TB? They all registered and were given new names? Big Difference there.
Dodds response about that wave not being supported by taxes is also telling.
I have my opinion, you and others have yours. Gee–in a democracy we put those types of issues to a vote.
I win, you lose. “The Wisdom of Crowds”
# 67 bobbo
“My position is that illegal immigration is bad because it takes jobs from Americans. ”
You are the one that has the burden of proof not me. I don’t have an opinion on whether it is good or bad. I simple think it is entangled in our economy and require more than just sending the illegal’s back where they came from.
“You counter with the notion that it is a “fact” that illegal’s are good for the economy so I say you have the burden to show some evidence of your “fact.””
Really please show me where I said “illegal’s are good for the economy” Once again your imaginary view has gotten in your way.
“Its not spoonfeeding me to ask to not be put on a snipe hunt.”
Yes it is. The info on the intertubes is not all compiled in one place. The information is scattered in hundred or thousands of reports and studies. It also requires an understanding which I can not give to you with a link. Do your own god damn research and learn how to educate yourself instead of having everyone else do your work for you. Or you could just hire some, as Mr. Mustard puts it, “beaners”. to do it for you.
“Where is your evidence? Its all in books and not on the internet huh? ”
Yes I do have a 320 something page report that explains it but I am more than sure it is all available on the intertubes.
“but I say stop using the argument if you can’t back it up.”
I think the links that Awake has provided you are more than enough to back up my position. I don’t feel the need to run all over the intertubes searching for your education.
“Finally, you sound rather silly to say that people without a job are better off because it keeps costs down. ”
Please show me where I said they would be “better off”. Nice way to reinterpret. I won’t bother to re post what I REALLY said because I have little hope you can comprehend it the second time around.
“If lettuce should triple in cost because it costs that much to find a legal picker, then the market will adapt.”
You make it sound so easy. Well it is if you are simple minded. There are repercussions of higher priced lettuce that your little brain doesn’t seem to understand. Maybe you should do a little more learning about the economy and then come to the grownups table. You and your buddy Thomas seem to have a similar view of it. A very narrow and simple one at that. That is why you are poor and I am not.
“Its nonsense though to say that many and more all the time Americans should be out of work/under employed because it gives the other Americans cheaper crap.”
I agree it is but the reality is Wal-Mart is the largest superstore for a reason. People would sell there soul if it meant cheaper crap. You don’t think they would sell out their fellow American? Do I need to show you proof of that too?
“Did you read that in one of your exclusive books or just make it up on the spot?”
I guess all books are exclusive from your perspective.
Awake, if you are going to claim something as fact, don’t turn around and tell the other person “go google it”. If you can’t just make it up like any self disrespecting red-neck then don’t bother.
First, the Hospital Administrator is full of shit. What the Hospital charges individuals and what they are paid by insurance companies are two different numbers. An individual might be charged $25,000 while an identical patient being paid by an insurance company would pay $10,000, and Medicare might pay $7,500. The Hospital may legally charge $0.50, $1.00, or $25.00 for the same 325 mg Tylenol. (Take two and it could be $50.00.)
Second, the Hospital may discharge the patient to another, less costly facility. If a patient has been there for 3 years (1,000 days) and the bill is $1.5 million, that means the Hospital is charging $1,500 per day, which is Critical Care (below Intensive Care and above Ward) rates. To leave the patient on Critical Care for three years deserves an audit.
Third, illegal immigration COSTS the country money. Besides the measurable costs of taxation v. contribution, there are the hidden costs of uninsured auto accidents, increased police presence, wear on the infrastructure, increased expenditure for infrastructure, costs associated with translating to another language, hiring additional second language staff, and increased education costs of ESL.
Fourth, there is the effect that cheap labor has on depressing wages across the board. There are also the unqualified skill jobs poorly done by this cheap labor.
Fifth, there is the flight of American dollars to the illegal alien’s home country.
Sixth, there is the importation of contagious diseases and the spreading of contagious diseases by those too poor or afraid to seek medical care. AND, there is the export of contagious diseases to the home country when the illegal alien is deported or returns willingly.
*
America was built by having a strong middle class. These semi-skilled and skilled auto workers, steel workers, carpenters, electricians, and many others earned good wages. They pumped their money back into the economy buying products their neighbors built. Too many of those jobs disappeared overseas and what is left has been ravaged by the cheap, illegal labor of immigrants. Individually they might be great people but collectively they have done a lot of harm to America.
#70 said,
“And white people from ‘acceptable’ countries are still given preferential treatment today under the visa system. there are about 10x as many visas available for white Europeans as there are for South Americans and Africans added together.”
Could that possibly be because there are more people with the education and job skills to support themselves available from Europe than are from South America and Africa?
The government of every county has the primary responsibility to do what is best for their citizens and the people that legally reside in their county. One of those responsibilities has to be to set limits on immigration to those individuals that can best support themselves and add to the country as a whole. Unregulated immigration of a low-skilled labor force ultimately has a negative effect on the host country as this group of people uses an un-proportionally large amount of social services (medical, education, welfare, etc.)
# 72 pedro
“#65 Yup. I just learned that it you’re a lost case.”
Good tis time you didn’t leave out any words but you got your pronouns mixed up and that is messy especially when you use it as a contraction
You meant to say Yes ( I ) just learned that ( I ) am a lost cause.
#76 “Could that possibly be because there are more people with the education and job skills to support themselves available from Europe than are from South America and Africa?”
No, importing impoverished, uneducated people who can barely read & write their own language is a winner.
#74–J==you challenge me by saying: “Really please show me where I said “illegal’s are good for the economy””
At #60 you said: “All those saying it is hurting our country financially has a political agenda.”
Did you use those words or formulation–No. Is that substantively what you said?===YES.
I won’t quibble with you further except to say unless you think job outsourcing is “good for America” or intertwined or too complicated for anyone but you to understand, then you are being consistent in seeing the same outcome with jobs outsourced to illegal aliens. The effect is the same on the downward pressure on wages in America.
If you think outsourcing jobs is bad for America==then you’ve got to explain why outsourcing to illegals is not also bad. Good luck with that because it strikes me as logically impossible to do so even if your stock portfolio benefits.
Going to bed now, will check back should you care to correct anything.
#75 “Third, illegal immigration COSTS the country money. Besides the measurable costs of taxation v. contribution, there are the hidden costs of uninsured auto accidents, increased police presence, …”
25% of inmates in LA County jails are illegal immigrants. Cost for a kid in CA school is ~$6k/year * # kids in family. How much in state taxes do you think are paid per year?
# 81 pedro
Familiar with the kiddie bloggs are you?
“but it’s an adult discussion and you’re most likely here without adult consent.”
Self reflection is an inspiring thing huh?
# 79 bobbo
“Did you use those words or formulation–No. Is that substantively what you said?===YES.”
Well now I know where the problem is. You have a reading comprehension issue. Back to 3rd grade for you.
bobbo. Why do you and others think that if we got rid of all the illegal’s that somehow that would lead to more jobs for Americans. You are living in a dream world. The companies would just outsource. Fuck most of them do now because the illegal’s want too much money! It is hard to compete with 39 cents an hour.
I disagree with outsourcing to ANYONE!!! That doesn’t change the fact that outsourcing is a reality because Americans want as much shit as possible and they want it as cheap as possible.
You talked about free market earlier. I find it funny when people talk about free market but then feel that it doesn’t apply when the market includes foreign countries where people will outwork Americans for less money. We live in a WORLD economy The sooner we wake up and realize that the better off we will be.
# 75 Mr. Fusion
You have a “few” good point in your post. especially the cost on the infrastructure and stuff like that. I won’t ask you for proof because one it is what I call common sense and I have educated myself about the issue. Something others choose not to do. So your attack on Awake is unfounded.
It is all part of the equation. Where I have a problem is that your assumption that the jobs would stay here if Americans had them instead is FALSE. Also, You are incorrect about the “taxation v. contribution” issue. There is plenty of data that shows that not to be the case. It isn’t all complied, except in my instance, in one neat place. You need to look up different states counties and cities and then assemble it into a bigger picture. One county may have a deficit but other may and do have tremendous profits. Also, the translation thing is bullshit. Companies do that because they want the business. If it wasn’t profitable to do it it wouldn’t happen.
I do also agree with you that cheap labor is depressing wages, not across the board but in many industries BUT getting rid of the illegal’s isn’t going to change that. Companies will just move those jobs overseas.
The whole American money is going to foreign lands bullshit is also nonsense. Does that mean that you should stop shopping at Wal-Mart and just about everywhere else too? That money you spend goes to foreign lands as well and it is a fuck of a lot more than the illegal workers bring back to theirs. What about all the SUV drivers. A percentage of all that oil money goes to foreign lands, mostly Canada.
The contagious diseases thing is nothing more than fear mongering. You watch too much Lou Dobbs.
Your right America was built by having a strong middle class. Well that and the Slaves we had before the civil war. The world is changing and we as Americans better wake up to that fact. We cant get buy with selling overpriced goods anymore. We either need to adapt to different markets or learn to accept that we need illegal labor to compete.
Sorry if I’m running behind here. I’m busy making cherry jam and running back and forth to the computer and stove.
#74, “J”,
# 67 bobbo
“My position is that illegal immigration is bad because it takes jobs from Americans. ”
You are the one that has the burden of proof not me. I don’t have an opinion on whether it is good or bad. I simple think it is entangled in our economy and require more than just sending the illegals back where they came from.
You want proof? A local eatery has hired several “illegals” to work in his kitchen. He pays them minimum wage and charges them extra for things like breaks. He doesn’t pay their taxes or workers comp. Local kids can’t get a job there because the illegals are so much cheaper. So there is you effen PROOF.
Good or bad? The owner’s brother owns a local motel. He crams them in four and five per room. The kids who would be bussing tables or sweeping the floor now don’t have a job. The illegals are being exploited. If one gets hurt he can worry if he can seek treatment and end up turned in. The local schools have had to hire several tutors as illegals don’t speak English but do get free schooling.
I guess you don’t need an opinion when facts get in the way. If you have published information, you could have posted the name and author of the report. If it isn’t published, then I guess we can determine the value ourselves.
#83 – Thanks for the sanity check.
#81, pedro,
As usual, you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. I might not agree with “J” and some others but I do respect their contributions.
#82, “J”,
You need to look up different states counties and cities and then assemble it into a bigger picture.
Which is precisely why I take issue with Awake’s comment for us to “google it” for ourselves. Because this issue is so politically charged every study will be trying to prove an agenda and / or be incomplete simply because of the enormity of the undertaking.
Does that mean that you should stop shopping at Wal-Mart …
As an idealist, YES. As a realist, NO. I don’t have a problem with international trade. I do have a huge problem when people are exploited so some rich dude can make some more money. OUR standards should be applied to all imports or hit with duties and adverse labeling to make them competitive with products produced in a humane manner.
The contagious diseases thing is nothing more than fear mongering. You watch too much Lou Dobbs.
Is it? Legal immigrants are screened for TB, AIDS, and a host of other diseases. Illegal immigrants aren’t. The nature of the problem, like the actual number of illegals, is impossible to assess with anything other than it happens. Yes, these diseases are here already, but local health efforts to eradicate them are stymied, partly by uncontrolled and illegal immigrants.
FYI, I can’t stand Dobbs, but insult taken. 8)
“You want proof?”
Yes and you provided none. You make many claims but have no evidence to back it up.
“Local kids can’t get a job there because the illegals are so much cheaper.”
Yes and kids not having jobs is the downfall of our economy. kitty it isn’t that simple. That is why I had a report compiled that includes data from all across the US. including Alaska and Hawaii.
“The illegals are being exploited. ”
I have no doubt of that.
“The local schools have had to hire several tutors as illegals don’t speak English but do get free schooling. ”
You raise a good point and that is a Valid issue. Again, though you like many other want to separate these issues. It is more like a Jinga puzzle. You can’t just start pulling out pieces without carefully thinking of the ramifications they will have.
“I guess you don’t need an opinion when facts get in the way. ”
You have certainly proved that with your post.
“If you have published information, you could have posted the name and author of the report. ”
It was published for me because I paid to have it assembled. It isn’t research. It is a collection of publish studies and data complied so that I can go to one place. The report draws no conclusions it simply complied the data. Something that took over 3 months to do. perhaps if I hired a bunch of illegal’s I could have got it at half the cost and 1 third the time. God damn American workers! 🙂
“If it isn’t published, then I guess we can determine the value ourselves.”
Oh you mean like the “local eatery “and “local motel” of yours?
# 86 Mr. Catshit
Yay! We agree on something. I respect you too and you did raise a very valid point of local impact. The question is what is the best way to resolve this? Instead of just booting all the illegal’s maybe the states and counties that do benefit, many, should have to fork over some of their profit to the areas that have debit because of illegal immigration.
# 85 Patrick
“#83 – Thanks for the sanity check.”
LOL you get your reality from a guy that posts on a blog? LOL
# 88 Mr. Catshit
“Because this issue is so politically charged every study will be trying to prove an agenda and / or be incomplete simply because of the enormity of the undertaking.”
You are correct it is a huge undertaking and yes their are “biased” studies. BUT when offset by cold hard data the picture is quite clear.
“As a realist, NO.”
That is exactly my point. if we could send all of the illegals back to their home countries and everything would be the same that would be great. It’s not epithetic but I still I would have no quibble with it. the problem is that in reality people want LOTS of THINGS and they want them CHEAP. the only way we have figured out to make that work is to outsource or use illegal labor. It is wrong but it is the REALITY. If we don’t use the cheap labor here we will just send it overseas and there is no way a Tariff law will ever get passed to change that. In the end there are no more jobs for the American workforce.
“I do have a huge problem when people are exploited so some rich dude can make some more money. ”
The problem with that is that ALL large corporations do exactly that!! Doesn’t matter if it is here or over there.
“Legal immigrants are screened for TB, AIDS, and a host of other diseases. ”
Yes but that does not mean the illegal one have any of those diseases more than any Americans do.
The really problem isn’t illegal’s as much is it is a fuck up health system. Plenty of Americans walk around with diseases and spread them to others because of either A. ignorance or B. Can’t get or afford the treatment they need.
No you guys really pissed me off.
This thing about ‘foreigners and their diseases’ is very similar to ‘niggers and their smell’, or ‘chinks and their drug habits’ or ‘Jews and their thieving ways’. Pure, unadulterated baseless racism.
Do SOME foreigners carry TB? Yes. Do some Americans carry TB? Yes. Do some foreigners have AIDS. Yes. Do some Americans have AIDS? Yes. Are some foreigners a terrorist threat? Yes. Are some Americans a terrorist threat? Yes. (Unabomber and Timothy McVeigh come to mind)
There has not been a single significant outbreak of ‘foreigner introduced’ disease in the last 25 years. When some variant of the Avian Flu does show up, it will be via a legal immigrant or American citizen flying in on an airplane.
There were about 13,000 cases of Tuberculosis in the USA a couple of years ago, and about 10 MILLION people carry latent tuberculosis in the USA. 246 people died in the USA from TB a couple of years ago. Yet an illegal immigrant is found to have active TB, and it is a national scandal pumped by the press like it is the end of the world.
>>I don’t think the Irish et al were illegal.
>>Weren’t they all processed thru Ellis Island?
Yeah, Bobbo. That’s the difference. The only difference. They were legal, and the only thing that distinguished them from “illegals” was the swipe of the pen. Same kind of people, same reason for coming here, same everything.
Kind of like if they decided people with red hair were illegal. Or left-handers.
No logic, no sense, the only reason the beaners are illegal and the micks were not is that xenophobic hatemongers have recently gotten themselves into positions of power.
Oh, and before some fool asks me to prove my figures by providing a source:
CDC. Reported Tuberculosis in the United States, 2006. Atlanta, GA: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, CDC, September 2007.
Don’t believe me? Look the damn statistics up yourselves, you uneducated lying lazy dummies.
The only reasons the bills are so high is because hospitals inflates there prices. A doctor walks into a hospital spends 1 hour doing rounds spends less than 5 minutes with each patient then charges each patient 250$. I recently had to get rid of my mothers doctor for doing this. Lets start talking about medical in terms of cost, not “bills”.
Yeah right, like a website called “The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration”, your main source of links, can have ANY credibility. Heck, just the 100% Aids infected Hispanics in clinic should just throw the whole thing out the window. Fear mongering at it’s best. They throw out blank statements like “also fact that a disproportionately high percentage of illegal aliens are criminals and sexual predators.”
They say things like “Half of the criminals in jail are illegal aliens” (Yeah right!)
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Made up crap by a racist organization.
Statistically questionable sources for traffic accidents.
Fear mongering regarding disease.
>>OK, you want some cites for illegal
>>immigrants being a problem?
You’re full of catshit, Catshit. Most of those citations refere to “people from other countries” (no evidence that they’re “illegal” in any way), minorities (no evidence that they’re “illegal in any way”), Hispanics (no evidence that they’re “illegal in any way, or maybe even Puerto Rican, which would make them natural-born citizens), etc etc etc.
Man.
I guess Spanish-language folks are about as popular as Christians here at dvorak dot org slash blog, hmmmm?
Hatred and intolerance know no bounds.
# 93 Mr. Catshit
Seriously if you can’t see how fucked up and biased those links to that “The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration” website are you need to have your head examined. It isn’t like they even try to hide it either. How fucked up is it when they claim that the driver was an illegal and the go on to say they “The driver and passenger of the SUV that caused the accident fled the scene and haven’t been found. ” and “the driver was not apprehended or ticketed nobody knows whether the driver causing the accident had a license or not. ” So how the FUCK do they know he was an illegal?
Oh wait here is the answer “The Colorado State Patrol told Hesler’s family that they most likely are in Mexico. ”
Ah that’s some good police work there lou!
That little ditty was how they started their hatred filled lie fest. Many of the things they claim have no evidence that the offenders are illegal’s at all but hey when you want to rid yourself of a population you don’t need to be correct. Just pick a target and blame all your ills on them.
The JAMA link was nice and information but again misrepresented knowledge. Foreign born does not mean it came from illegal’s. Many of those case are from American born travelers to foreign lands. Then they bring it back here. So once again applying all your our on your target.
California Free health clinic? Seriously how bias is that little piece.
The National Academy of Science ? Too bad you get your info from a bad source. The National Academy of Science said no such thing the think tank group called “Center for Immigration Studies” Hum a little research on their bias position. Look at their website yourself. They, for the most part, don’t even want legal immigrants to come here.
“Which doesn’t help those trying to escape the ghettos.”
Yeah that’s right the illegal’s are responsible for people being stuck in the ghettos. What a crock of shit!!!!
I can’t even continue because you are not even aware of how credible your sources are and when they are you don’t represent the data correctly.
Still waiting for the illegal apologists to explain away the FACT that 25% of the crims in prison in LA County are illegals…
#95, Awake,
Yeah right, like a website called “The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration”, your main source of links, can have ANY credibility.
or we could use your sources,
Don’t believe me? Look the damn statistics up yourselves, you uneducated lying lazy dummies.
*
Statistically questionable sources for traffic accidents.
Got better? Could you offer something to disprove these sources? Could you even tell us what is wrong with any of the comments I cited?