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| Dipshits Hardiman and Agema Pushing the Bill in Michigan | ||
I’m sure the citizens of the state are proud that they are now in the same camp as the dummies in Louisiana who are passing a similar bill cited here.
Teachers shouldn’t be prevented from discussing alternative views of evolution, global warming and other controversial topics in their science classes, according to a bill backed by some local lawmakers.
But some evolution advocates say identical bills submitted in the state Senate and House are “Trojan horse legislation” intended to open the door to allow schools to teach intelligent design — a belief that life is the result of a creator — under the guise of academic freedom.
Gregory Forbes, a Grand Rapids Community College science professor, said there is nothing in the bills that demand teaching intelligent design with or in place of evolution.
But he said the lawmakers who sponsored the bills — including state Sen. Bill Hardiman, R-Grand Rapids, and Rep. Dave Agema, R-Grandville — previously backed bills promoting intelligent design, and a version of the bill appeared on the Web site of the Discovery Institute, a Seattle think tank that has supported similar attempts.
Postage stamp proves dinosaurs and men walked together on earth. Otherwise why would they put it on a stamp?
I wonder how many people with a Ph.D in a biology related field disbelieve in the theory of evolution.
To be joe sixpack and think evolution is wrong is one thing, but to have actually seen examples of speciation or see the effects of selective breeding or similar zygote stages is quite different.
To someone who disbelieves in evolution:
1. Why do we have an appendix?
2. Why are there dinosaur bones?
3. Why are there bones of homo habilis and other human ancestors in China and Africa?
The only way creationism happened is if God created evolution as the vehicle.
Needless to say, many of these pro-creationism individuals are ones without a background in biology and lack the understanding to get a handle on the evidence.
That isn’t science, it’s ignorance.
“Given that liberalism is so prevalent in academia, it is not entirely surprising that college graduates are indoctrinated into the evolutionary paradigm via evolutionary propaganda.
”
http://www.conservapedia.com/Evolution
With thinking like that I’m surprised we dont have Faux Universities everywhere already.
The governor is likely to veto this…if it makes it that far.
The question to ask the creationists: with regards to science, how is creationism any different from Paul Bunyan?
#1 – HMeyers,
I wonder how many people with a Ph.D in a biology related field disbelieve in the theory of evolution.
I imagine it this way. Imagine an ardent creationist. Imagine that this creationist wants to discredit evolution, whatever it takes. S/he spends years in university giving correct answers on tests always hating science all through it. This person even manages to write some innocuous thesis that gets him/her through the PhD program.
Now, here is a biologist who believes in intelligent design.
Done.
Whats the problem here? Such things should be presented in a fair and balanced approached.
I see nothing wrong with beginning a 9 month science course with the statement that ID posits that an intelligent being created the universe through unknown means including willing it into being, and thru evolution from the big bang forward. Keep that thought in mind as we spend the next 9 months studying evolution.
Then repeat the above at the end of 9 months. AFTER a creator creates by an unknown process of will, what else is there to study?
Futher–when we read of stupid societies executing people for having been raped (or whatever, choose your favorite), what are other more advanced societies to think of USA with multiple stories of this kind?
Religious belief is a mental illness. All people that believe in religion should be reprogrammed or incinerated. The sooner, the better. Before their stupidity and ignorance puts us into another Dark Age.
#6 – JPV .. mental illness .. reprogrammed .. incinerated .. stupidity .. ignorance .. Dark Age
You’re one of the militant fundie Dawkins-thumping Atheist evangelicals I was talking about.
And you’re different from Jerry Falwell and Ted Haggard how?? I keep forgetting.
#7–Mustard, you’ve gone too long without a thumping yourself. Starting to evangelize and thumping you are.
The difference between evangelical atheism and evangelical religion is the same difference between simple non-belief and reasonable religionist (sic!–and a big sic at that)
The first is based on evidence and facts always to be modified on new and advancing evidence and facts. The later is whatever anyone believes regardless of the facts.
You can only tell someone they came from apes for so long. The last couple hundred years have been a good example of what happens to a society when you teach them false theory. Maybe, we can get back on track by teaching truth. You may bash this post all you like, most of you know my views. I will let the Bible be my guide.
Bobbo, the week has only just begun. White lace and promises. And already I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
Hatemongering on the left is no different from hatemongering on the right (or Bible-thumper vs. Atheist fundie, as the case may be), no matter how long the beards have grown overnight.
In my book, anyone who uses terms like “.. mental illness .. reprogrammed .. incinerated .. stupidity .. ignorance .. Dark Age” to describe people of a differrent faith than his own is an Atheist fundie evangelical, a hatemonger, and an all-around dangerous fellow.
Once again, stupidity is news.
Having read this same stuff before from the usual gang of regulars, I’ll just let ya’ll fight it out amongst yourselves. Guess I’ll go clean the primary mirror.
“And you’re different from Jerry Falwell and Ted Haggard how?? I keep forgetting.”
Well I’d guess that the scientist types have most of the weapons; Guns, nuclear, biological;
Delivery systems; Trucks, tanks, planes, rockets;
Communication technologies; Phones, Radios, Computers and networks;
But not strong on Entertainment; Music, Art, Performance.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong but if you’re betting….
@MScott … “S/he spends years in university giving correct answers on tests always hating science all through it.”
Someone who would fake interest in biology for a period of several years for a passion of disproving science would be a really screwed up person.
More likely would be the “failed biologist” that needed employment or a source of income and uses their degree as a vehicle of legitimacy to make money by writing books in against evolution.
#8, Bobbo,
#7–Mustard, you’ve gone too long without a thumping yourself. Starting to evangelize and thumping you are.
Once again you are demonstrating how big a drunk you are. All that booze must have killed a lot of brain cells. Mustard just pointed out something very true and obvious and so you accuse him of evangelizing.
So what are “the facts”? If someone pushes “string theory” without any unassailable proof are they mentally ill? What about the size of the universe at the instant of the big bang? Got proof?
If you want to refute Mustard then do so with facts. Using your ad hominem attacks doesn’t help the conversation.
#14–MrFussbucket–reread #7, its nothing but facts and a little ad hominem to give Mustard a reason to live. What could be more christian than that?
No, you evidently are making the same Mistake Mr Mustard makes. Anything I disagree with, I don’t understand. Everything I disagree with, is all the same. How can such philosophical rot not include a sweet ad hominem.
To rephrase because I know it takes more than one explanation, just because two things have several points of comparison, does not mean they are the same?
Its like YOU and Mustard and a bag of shit. Now, you all contain shit, but the bag is useful.
@#9 “You can only tell someone they came from apes for so long.”
The apes never left.
They are with us today and promoting intelligent design.
I know one high school science teacher who discusses the hypothesis of Intelligent Design in her science class, along with several others (yes, Christians aren’t the only ones).
It’s a good illustration of hypothesis vs theory, predication and testability, post hoc interpretation, and how to perform literature reviews.
#15 Mista Bobbolina
>>Its like YOU and Mustard and a bag of shit. Now,
>>you all contain shit, but the bag is useful.
The “whole” is deep enough, Bobbolina. You should quit digging now.
#17–QB==ID can be taught in a “science” class only to exhibit what is NOT science, as in, NOT a hypothesis, NOT testable, and NOT a theory.
Belief and not science is what you are dealing with, don’t confuse the two.
#18–Mustard, I’m feeling good aren’t you? Each thread stands on its own.
Stop teaching religion in science classes. Religion isn’t “real”. Religion can’t be measured or observed, it’s just stories told about fantastical supernatural events that haven’t happened since the invention of the video camera and modern science. Religion is a great vehicle for discussing ethics or philosophy…that’s cool…but don’t confuse that with science, which measures and tests the world around us. Religion can’t be measured or tested. You can measure the “invisible” magical being that only you hear in your head. I can’t measure the energy output of Zeus and Thor’s magical lightening to see which is more powerful (something a scientist might do) because no one has ever SEEN Zeus or Thor…they’re just characters in a story. Scientists could analyze the seas that magically part for days allowing an army to walk through…if an event like that EVER actually happens. But as of now, EVERY single religion on earth is just stories told about fantastical events that happened long ago and coincidentally aren’t provable or will never happen again, so they aren’t testable or measurable. Leave religion to ethics and philosophy classes and leave science and math to measure and test the world.
Bobbo: “ID can be taught in a “science” class only to exhibit what is NOT science, as in, NOT a hypothesis, NOT testable, and NOT a theory.”
Easy there big fella. I think we understand that ID (or spontaneous combustion, or whatever they call it) is a hypothesis, not a theory. Don’t worry, we got it, relax.
Sure, teachers should be able to discuss ideas without censorship, but we don’t need laws that do not remedy some actual problem.
If teachers are being told that they can’t possibly bring up the topic of Creationism for discussion, such a law would make sense.
Since it appears that is NOT the case, then fabricating a law in defense of Creationism, as crafted by people who are pushing the concept as factoid, is a misuse of the powers of authority.
But there seems to be a lot of that going around in the last eight years.
I used to believe in creation and was a Catholic who participated enthusiastically. I would get into arguments over evolution in college, and eventually became convinced by the other side. It really changed my outlook on life, realizing that I was in it for myself.
I no longer go to church, and I’ve stopped volunteering there. Many feel that I was doing some good there, but I’ve just decided it’s not the way to live. I don’t want any poor people competing with me.
#21–QB==
hypothesis: a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences. /// Since the god hypothesis can’t be tested, it is not a hypothesis. It is a system of belief. Now, to be “fair” I guess god is a hypothesis, but again, in the main just to show how it isn’t actually one as it can’t be tested. The key is this is a SCIENCE class, not a sociology or religion class. If astrology is a proper hypothesis for a science class to teach, then so would ID–or not, and all for the same reasons.
Again–you need to separate belief systems from science. Course, if the courts ruled you can only teach purple monkeys in science class, thats what you would now be arguing for.
“Again–you need to separate belief systems from science.”
Obviously I do here. So never mind.
#24, bobbo,
… you need to separate belief systems from science.
No can do.
How many atoms are in a gram of water and how can you prove it? A lot of fancy math will give you an answer, but did anyone ever count them?
How do we know stars and constellations are moving away from us? Is it not possible the red shift might have another explanation? Is it possible the Doppler Effect might be warped by gravitational forces?
While you can accept the commonly accepted answers, they still require some belief they are correct.
When you suggested that : Its like YOU and Mustard and a bag of shit. …. I wouldn’t compare you to a bag of shit, but if you insist, …
haha well this place hasn’t changed one bit since I’ve been gone.
“I will let the Bible be my guide.”
Ha, you do that but don’t let others try to cram that swill down normal peoples’ throats. Actually, it might be fun to allow this nonsense in and watch the State implode intellectually. I can see the level of education sliding down until the kids can’t even spell IQ.
“Michigan – Where Education Doesn’t Matter”.
“Each particular thought is valueless if it is the
result of irrational causes. Obviously, then, the
whole process of human thought, that we call
Reason, is equally valueless if it is the result of
irrational causes. Hence, every theory of the
universe which makes the mind a result of irrational causes is inadmissible, for it would be a proof that there are no such proofs. Which is nonsense. But Naturalism [evolution], as commonly held, is precisely a theory of this sort.”
CS Lewis
Republicans have no future as the “anti-science” party. It just isn’t going to fly.