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#61,
yes, but those costs are the same no matter what our fuel source is. If we all drove electric cars, those costs would still be the same. We would still need roads and bridges. Would you then complain that the government is supporting the price of electricity?
#57 & 59==isn’t speed related to accidents a bell shaped curve? As is mileage. Seems the rational choice is to chart them and make fact based decisions thereon? Fifty-five I think is near the sweet spot for the TWO CURVES CONSIDERED TOGETHER.
I prefer 80 as a limit so I can drive 90. But I’m an idiot, and so is everyone that drives like me.
I prefer 80 as a limit so I can drive 90. But I’m an idiot, and so is everyone that drives like me.
I respect a man who can stand back and look at himself honestly. (Assuming that bobbo is a man)
$64–Les==you didn’t answer the question, recognize your error.
In the main, electricity is not imported from our enemies. That is a very telling difference. But to the analogy==yes, all the externalities of electrical production should be included in its cost. That should include roads, parking and everything else that a legislature might rationally find external to the cost of electricity. That way, people who use it pay for it, and those off the grid will not. Same issues, same answers.
#63
> Yes, but closer to 80 (as in today)
> uses more gas.
I disagree. I keep track of gas consumption each day. The difference in gas mileage between driving 80 and 60 is unmeasurable by my car’s trip computer. The key is constant speed.
RE: 2 MPH Speed Limit
We come to the crux of the issue. It should be up to the individual to decide the optimal speed/fuel consumption combination based on their needs; not the government. For me, the time I save driving 80 as opposed to 60 more than makes up for additional, imperceptible fuel costs. For others it may not. That is their choice.
> I propose the the economic
> impact of 55 would be minimal,
> and the fuel savings substantial.
By what metrics are you claiming that 55 is the optimal cost/benefit between travel speeds and fuel consumption? How do we not know that 80 is better since cars get to their destination quicker or that 40 is better?
#66–Les==don’t kung-fu me. I don’t like winning a small point by evidencing I am an idiot. Lets see–enjoys driving too fast? Male. Recognizes he is an idiot for doing so? Older. (Thomas writes as if he is still in his teens, must be wishful thinking or dementia?)
#68–Thomas==you should know that mileage is a function of drag which goes up logrhythmically (sp!) with speed to great effect above 60.
You are either lying, or so biased you can’t observe accurately.
#67,
so if we have these price supports, they will never go away no matter what the fuel is, so it is a moot point.
Go live in a cave. If you don’t make any money, then you wont have to pay any taxes, and wont be paying for anyones fuel. You are actually talking about public infrastructure, and trying to place the costs of infrastructure on oil.
Many years ago I tried to lobby my state house to introduce a bill to either use technology to prevent dispensing gas to uninsured cars, or charge some amount (I was suggesting $1.00 / gallon) for liability insurance. I didn’t know any states were doing something like this. My idea was different, under my plan no one would need to carry liability. I don’t like the idea of being taxed for someone else’s insurance, but including your own insurance in the price of gas seems a good idea.
In as much as I said above, I don’t want to subsidize someone else, but from what I read, you are talking about the public infrastructure, not oil.
I’m going by the data I have observed. My car’s trip computer tracks the entire trip’s fuel economy so I only have to *observe* when I stop. I do not argue that there is no difference. The question is *how much* is the difference? If the difference between 80 and 60 is only 1 MPG in fuel efficiency, then frankly the faster speed is well worth it to me.
#63,
Build your own road and drive whatever speed you want. On the public roads, we need to drive the same speed for safety.
bobbo,
when I was younger I enjoyed driving fast. Somewhere along the way I grew up. I now tend to be in the right lane.
#73
Again, safety is an entirely different argument than fuel economy. Presumably, the current speed limits account for safety so clearly that is not the issue. If you think that 65/75/80 is too fast then build your own roads and drive whatever speed you want.
Obviously, I’m having a lot of trouble typing fast enough to keep up with this thread.
#24 – Les,
Just some quick math Scott.
[snip]
If the entirety of our taxes was used to keep down the cost of gasoline, it would be reducing the cost by 1 cent per gallon.
I am not buying your $15 a gallon supported by taxes BS.
I’m not going to argue about your math. And, clearly you’re typing to fast to read anything in the link I posted. Look at where the costs go. First, a lot of the cost is in lost revenue. That would come right off the top and never be entered on the books. That’s how tax subsidies for drilling work.
Then there is a lot of cost associated with health issues and a host of other issues. It’s not all direct costs. Read the article. Then draw conclusions. You’ll have to take a break from typing though.
Let’s see if I can catch up a bit now while you hopefully read a bit.
68,
for those that dont understand ENGINES…
Engines can be set for certain speeds and efficiency.. You can set the Timing to be at full idle at a MAX speed which can make the car very efficient..
Also, areo dynamics are interesting.
At faster speeds, you create an envelope AROUND the car, WHICH at slower speeds tend to use the car like a KITE and bump it around.
At faster speeds, its like taking a boulder, and making it fly faster then sound, IT dont MATTER what its shape is(to much), as WEIGHT means more then shape(unless its FLAT and Perpendicular to the FORCE.
If you use areo dynamics WITH weight, the car HUGS the ground in a Pocket of air. Light cars cant keep it up very well, and any abnormalities in Contours or Wind direction can FOrce the car OFF the round.
Those WHO have driven the Columbia Gourge, in a VW can attest to that.
I also have a 20 year old OLDsmobile, that gets over 30mpg at 80+…and HUGS the road.
#74
I would estimate that on about every other commute or so, I have to get out of the fast lane at some point, even at 80, to be passed by someone going faster. Frankly, I prefer the German model of speed limits than the revenue generating model we have in the US.
Les–you lose totally trying to call real and actual external costs as “infrastructure.” Infrastructure for WHAT? For cars. Cars that run on fuel.
Simple proof. Some people want electricty, sewer, cable, water==whatever infrastructure you name (natural gas line?) out to their house, power plant, subdivision–whatever. Absent the “general plan”–they are lucky when the local agency will do so by placing a lien on the property with a surcharge to pay for that externality.
Externalities are easy to fudge and argue about as to their exact nature, but no one should think they don’t exist.
#27 – Les,
I just spent $85 to fill up my mini van. It’s a sad day when you have to start looking at giving up health care, just so you can get to work.
That is truly sad. You have my sympathy. Unfortunately, you and I see different causes for your unfortunate situation.
Wouldn’t it have been nice if you had had a choice of a mini van with a 2.2L diesel engine and 30+ MPG fuel economy? Or perhaps a hybrid that would do even better.
That shouldn’t be too much to expect. The safari vehicles in africa seat 11 people, can climb amazingly steep slopes through brush or snorkel through water. They have 2.5L diesels and get 24 MPG.
Our cars are simply crap because everyone here thought they needed to go 0-60 in 4 seconds flat up the side of a mountain.
I am truly sorry you had such bad vehicle choices. I also believe the only way to get better choices is to have higher fuel prices. Nothing else has worked. Terrorists funded by oil flew planes into our buildings and we went out and bought humpers and naggravators. Do you have another way to get people to not be stupid?
You made a reasonable choice of vehicle. You’re now getting hurt by all the fuckheads that didn’t.
I would estimate that on about every other commute or so
I did say I “tend” to be in the right lane. I do change lanes as conditions warrent. I was indicating that I am not the guy who speeds along in the fast lane.
Thams–how does you car avoid the laws of physics? Maybe ECA gave us the answer and your car is set for the 80mph crowd? Congrats if so.
Mythbusters did a show on pickup trucks with tail gates up or down. Down gave better gas mileage. The worst gas mileage was tail gate down with that cargo net across the back. Probably ECA’s bubble theory at work?
#33 – Mister Mustard,
Thanks for the support. No. I’m not going to do all the math in a multi-page PDF for myself. I will state that I may have been mistaken in stating that it all comes from the tax bill. Some of it is in the health care industry. Some of it is paid for in other ways. The article details it far better than I can or even than I will try to.
Les, if you refuse to read it, you don’t get to dispute it.
I believe the cost is the total cost to society though, not just out of tax dollars. Further, they definitely added in the per state costs. So, income tax cost does not all come from the fed.
13,
Tell the farmers…
as I havnt seen the inspections..
28,
STOP that…the arabs ARNT selling it at that PRICE..Opec isnt either..
ITS a commodity price..ITS A BID PRICE…
this is like the farmer gets $2.60 per 100 lb or potatoes and YOU willing to pay $1.69 at McD for 4oz.. do you REALLy think there is $100 worth of processing on those Fries??
Look at PROFITS from last year..and the YEAr before.
34,
Only if you are driving a BUS with no aerodynamics…
73, Everyone driving the SAME speed, means they will tend to GROUP UP, which causes MORE accidents then the FAST drivers getting OUT OF THE MESS…the fast driver might HURT himself, but he ISNT taking anyone WITH HIM when he wrecks.. the IDIOTS in the pack, 1 stupid MOVE and you bump another person, and another, and then someone LOOSES control, or JUST GETS MAD, and BAM…you have 3-4-5 cars in a wreck..
#80,
thanks for the sympathy. I don’t think that paying $250 for a tank of gas will make my circumstances any better.
Want people to make a better choice? Give them a better choice. The first electric car I knew of was the “Lectric Leopard”, Then the EV1, the Tesla. I know a guy who commutes in a three wheeled sparrow. Unfortunately, these have all been not what the public wants.
Les,
I just remembered. It’s been a while since I read the ICTA report. Among other costs, they do include cost of human lives. So, it was my mistake to say it was all out of our income tax bill.
The 70-130,000 people per year who die of air pollution in the U.S. alone were counted as a cost. As the paper points out, we do put monetary value on human life every day. Check with the insurance company.
So, yup. I was wrong. The $15 is real, but not all from taxes. Read the paper for the full list of costs included in the number.
The real beauty of the report is that they break it up nicely so that you can subtract out any of the things you disagree with and come up with your own number.
#82
I wouldn’t presume to be able to know all of the reasons for why. However, consider that if I drive at 60 in first gear I will get worse gas mileage than if I drive 80 in fifth gear. Thus, the gearing of your vehicle can make a dramatic difference in your gas mileage. Again, it is not that a difference does not exist. The question is whether there is enough of a difference
#82
Let me add, that not going the flow of traffic will almost assuredly garner the worst gas mileage. On LA freeways, driving 60 is not as easy as it sounds. In fast traffic, you will get people whipping around you.
# 86,
see my 2 mph argument.
I read enough to see that they were applying many things to the “cost of gas” which simply dont belong. Nice of you to say that half of federal spending is the real cost of gas, but I don’t think so.
#82 – bobbo,
Thomas said his olds was 20 years old. 1986 was the peak fuel economy for the U.S. fleet. We’ve been going downhill ever since, much to our own peril. So, he probably has a compact or mid-size olds with a V6. I think his 30 MPG is probably realistic.
Unfortunately, by 1992, when my Camry was built, even a 4 cyl camry only had EPA fuel ratings of 21 city, 27 hwy. I get about 27 city and 32 hwy, but would love to have better gear ratios, a lighter car and a smaller 4. My 87 camry got 41 on the highway.
And, yes, constant speed helps a lot. Use cruise whenever possible. And, go easy on both pedals.
#90
ECA is the one with the 20 year old Olds. My car is quite a bit newer than 20 years. :-> I get anywhere from 28-32 if I can keep constant speed; even at 80.
(0,
MS..
And the 86 Olds, is a medium size car..
I can get 6 inside very comfortably..
In the 90’s they started using Bucket seats in the front, and Narrowed the car.
they were designed for the freeway.
I can get from Twinfalls idaho to Either Potland or Vegas on 1-2 gallons over the 18gallon tank.
City driving, kinda, eats more fuel, but its NOT a race car.
>>I can get from Twinfalls idaho to
>>Either Potland or Vegas
Potland??? Can you get there by 4:20???