TAMPA — Next year, a giant Confederate flag may tower above the tree line near the junction of Interstate 75 and Interstate 4. The Sons of Confederate Veterans wants drivers in the Tampa area to see the massive flag — 30 feet high and 50 feet long — atop a 139-foot pole, the highest the Federal Aviation Authority would allow. It would be lit at night. With the pole already in the ground and building permits in hand, the group is on its way to having what it calls the “world’s largest” Confederate flag in place by mid 2009. The group just needs about $30,000 more, said Douglas Dawson, a division commander. Several nearby business owners don’t mind. It’s history, they say, and it’s on private property.
The county has wrestled with sensitive Confederate issues in the past. In 1994, the Confederate flag was removed from the county seal. Last year, county commissioners recognized Confederate commander Robert E. Lee on the same day they honored a black civic leader. Commissioners later apologized and haven’t since recognized Lee. Flags Across Florida started about eight years ago, after the Confederate flag was removed from the Capitol in Tallahassee. So far the group has two major flags erected: one in Suwannee County along Interstate 75 and one in Havana along U.S. 27.
Adams insists the flag isn’t about racism or slavery. “It’s about honoring our ancestors and about celebrating our heritage,” he said. “It’s a historical thing to us.”
Damn, where’s the Homeowners Association when you need them?
Bobbo,
I’m pretty sure that no one in the KKK sees it as a “celebration of their caucasian heritage”. The Klan promotes itself as a hate group. They dont even claim to have a reason. They say “I hate because I can.” This is a view that is based on nothing but their own Ignorance. I dont know anyone personally that is in the Klan, but I have seen their literature, and heard them speak at rallies on T.V. They preach white supremacy. No one looking to celebrate their heritage would be drawn to this. Like I said, I don’t personally know a klansman. So I could be wrong. But I doubt it.
By the way, Just a tidbit. Are you aware that the original Klan was a good thing? 1865-1869. During Reconstruction years in the south it was pretty much Mob Rules mentality. Union troops were all that we had for law and there were a lot of atrocities. By carpetbaggers, some X-slaves, The troops themselves, and even some southern citizens that were just of evil hearts and thought they would take advantage of the situation. The Klan (even though started as just a fraternity) saw their purpose. They filed the role of a kind of southern national guard. If you have seen “Gone With the Wind”, when Scarlet is attacked by the camp of carpetbaggers and later that night the guys go out to take care of the situation. They were the Klan. They don’t tell you this in the movie, but it is understood (at least in the south). This was the role the original Klan filled until they weren’t needed anymore. That is when Nathan Bedford Forest Disbanded them. That should have been the end of the Klan. But unfortunately, some weren’t ready to call it quits yet and they evolved into what we know the Klan as today. But none of that maters in what we are talking about. Just a bit of trivia.
While I am off the topic. I saw a funny movie last night. “2001 maniacs” If I were easily offended person I probably wouldn’t of liked it. It makes fun of us southerners and all of the stereotypes. (But you got to be able to laugh at yourself). If you can find it, I recommend you check it out. I think you would like it.
I think you have hit the nail on the head in your second paragraph when you said “If the heart is pure, and the mind works, information should clear the condition” I believe you are on to something. It is all in someones intensions. When you see some hate group carrying the battle flag (or any other flag). Even though this is done out of ignorance, they mean it as a hate symbol. When you see a hereditary group carrying it, It is meant as a symbol of our heritage.
“The SCV rejects any group whose actions tarnish or distort the image of the Confederate soldier or his reasons for fighting.”
The information is out there. All you have to do is look.
www. scv. org (Don’t put in the spaces. If I didn’t, I couldn’t post this comment.)
Amathaon
“The preservation of liberty and freedom was the motivating factor in the South’s decision to fight the Second American Revolution.” /// No sense of irony?
How many black people are in your organization? I assume you should have a few?
Broad vs Narrow: whatever you think is right and proper, it is limiting to ignore what many in opposition think.
Never heard of a white heritage KKK type huh? Ever hear of David Duke?
http://www.davidduke.com/general/the-racial-murder-and-rape-of-white-women-in-america_3555.html
You have either been severely taken advantage of and brainwashed, or are intentionally attempting the same on others. In either case, you are in your own fantasy construction. To be of maximum value, “ideas” should bring people together==not separate them by some wrong headed notion of “heritage.”
You are wrong on so many levels. Think about it. I’ll check back in a year.
Greetings Amathaon, Bobbo and other debaters. I have been quietly observing this conversation. I was happy that it went to a more adult tone since the beginning but it seems to be taking a turn for the worse. I feel compelled to put in my thoughts at this point. Please bear with me, as I can be very long-winded.
Amathaon, I am from the Nashville area and I am a member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy (along with my mother) in the John Donelson chapter.
In the grand scheme of things, this rhetoric is about freedom, respect, acceptance not tolerance (as Amathaon said), and diversity. First I would like to elaborate on the gross issue, then on the specific issue of the flag.
To set my stage, I refer back to my comment “Judge me only when you completely understand me.” I will tell you a bit about myself.
I am a 37 y/o registered nurse. I work at a hospital in one of the (if not THE) most crime-riddled areas of middle TN. Quite often I help young “ethnic” people recover from injuries related to “gang violence.” One of my jobs is to not let stereotypes, pre (mis) conceptions, or my opinions get in the way of providing the best nursing care possible. In addition, I have estimated that over half of the nurses that I work with are black, Philipino, or from some culture other than my own typical Heinz 57 W.A.S.P. background. Many of the doctors with whom I work are from the Dominican Republic, Sudan, India, Pakistan, or Hispanic in origin. These doctors are among the best-of-the-best and are highly respected by my co-workers and me. Furthermore, the largest Kurdish community in America is less than 1 mile from the hospital; therefore, this is the hospital they choose. We must be aware of particular diets, social traditions, family dynamics, customs, and many other aspects of these cultures in order to be respectful of their needs. It is never “silly” for anyone to celebrate his or her heritage or culture and to expect this type of respect from others.
I am agnostic. I believe that the “separation of church and state” is exactly what it says it is. This country was founded on freedom, not Christianity as many avidly protest. One of our revered founding fathers was a Satanist, Benjamin Franklin to be specific. How can the statement of Christianity being the foundation of the United States be true with this undisputable fact? At the same time, I believe that theology and evolution should be taught in public schools. This should be done without prejudice for one over the other. Why? Children need to be taught diversity and acceptance for ALL beliefs. No one belief should be placed above another. I recently saw the Bill Maher movie “Religulous.” It is hair-raising to think of the demise of our civilization over the argument of religion, however it seems very plausible. By the way, this also applies to the original argument of the flag in this string of messages. People often react to difference of opinion with violence
I believe in freedom for all humans to do as they will, as long as it harms no one else in the process. A bit of trivia…this is the Pegan “Golden Rule.” Included in my beliefs are more that the finite issue of the flag. I believe in pro-choice, the death penalty in extreme cases, freedom of press, freedom of speech, and gay marriage along with all of the benefits “traditional” marriages enjoy (I am straight, by the way) to name a few.
What is my point? Even if I agreed with your views Bobbo, and I don’t, I completely support your right to your own opinion. I once would have agreed with you 100%, but my mind was changed with indisputable historic fact. I used to believe that the Confederate Flag was nothing more than a homeland version of the Nazi flag. It was not until 7 or 8 years ago I opened myself to the fact that my understanding may be distorted by the victor-written authors of history books.
The winners of wars write the history books for obvious reasons that I won’t go into right now. Having a desire to know the truth, I did my own research. Not just talking with people, but reading, digging, questioning. Bobbo, if you could prove to me that ANY of my beliefs may possibly be wrong, it would be of the greatest importance to me to reevaluate them. I would like to submit a friendly challenge for you, Bobbo, to do that for me; prove me wrong.
Now for specific comments on this conversation… Bobbo, you asked me if I believed that the CW had NOTHING to do with slavery. Of course I don’t. The south was, as it is, highly agricultural. Manual labor was high in demand and low on supply. I am not trying to dispute historic fact. But think of it this way, how many times have you heard the statement “no blood for oil?” Do you think there would be so many men putting their lives at risk, missing births of their children, and being away from home for long stretches of time just because we don’t want to pay $4.25/gallon for gas? I don’t’ think so. In comparison, I know that my grandfathers did not fight to preserve the institution of slavery. The invasion of the south in 1861 was an illegal one, and the people of the states resisted. The south did not want war; it was Lincoln who made the decision to invade and fight this horribly bloody war for 4 years.
In perusing the various articles written about the states right to secede, I came across this one:
________________________________________________________________________
“Secession Crisis
U.S. Constitution “The Right To Secede” March 4, 1789
The first union of the original 13 colonies was affected by the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781. The articles established a confederation of sovereign states in a permanent union. The “permanence” lasted only until 1788, when 11 states withdrew from the confederation and ratified the new Constitution, which became effective on March 4, 1789. The founding fathers recognized the defects in the Articles of Confederation, learned from these defects, and scrapped the articles in favor of the “more perfect union” found in the Constitution.
Nowhere in the Constitution is there any mention of the union of the states being permanent. This was not an oversight by any means. Indeed, when New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia ratified the Constitution, they specifically stated that they reserved the right to resume the governmental powers granted to the United States. Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia. In his book Life of Webster Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge writes, “It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw.” A textbook used at West Point before the Civil War, A View of the Constitution, written by Judge William Rawle, states, “The secession of a State depends on the will of the people of such a State.”
Well into the 19th century, the United States was still viewed by many as an experimental confederation from which states could secede just as they had earlier acceded to it. It took a bloody war to prove them wrong.
Fascinating Fact: It is significant that no Confederate leader was ever brought to trial for treason. A trial would have brought a verdict on the constitutional legality of secession. Federal prosecutors were satisfied with the verdict that had been decided in battle.”
________________________________________________________________________
I could not have worded it better myself (that’s what “copy-paste” is for). The issue was the fact our own government had assumed absolute control which was not constitutional. That’s why my grandfathers fought, not to keep men in bondage. In fact, look up statistics on how many soldiers actually owned slaves. What in the world were non-slave holders fighting for?
Concerns about the CW, and how it relates to modern day seems to be a source of debate here. History ignored will invariably repeat itself. Let me explain my reasoning.
Do you remember when the support for invading Afghanistan was being drummed up? We were lied to by our government knowingly and repeatedly in order to gain our support. Where are all the mobile anthrax labs? We now know they never existed. Our president was creating terror in his own people with lies in order to fulfill his own agenda. This is not too far from what Lincoln did. I could talk forever about this, but I think this makes my point. If you ever get the chance, there is a book titled “The Giver” by Lois Lowry. I read this for an English Composition class several years ago. It is a light-reading fictional book, an allegory of sorts depicting the dangers of not realizing the lessons taught by history, but rather ignoring them, as they might be too painful. I’ll repeat myself here, history ignored will invariably repeat itself. Is that what we want OUR grandchildren? My grandfathers didn’t.
I have said enough for now, I have more but I will save it for later. Oh yeah, Bobbo, you should watch that movie (“2001 Maniacs”)! It’s great, Robert Englund is awesome in it!
I enjoy having this type of discussion. I hope that it does not fall on deaf ears, and I hope we will continue.
Respect.
*~syl~*
Greetings Amathaon, Bobbo and other debaters. I have been quietly observing this conversation. I was happy that it went to a more adult tone since the beginning but it seems to be taking a turn for the worse. I feel compelled to put in my thoughts at this point. Please bear with me, as I can be very long-winded.
Amathaon, I am from the Nashville area and I am a member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy (along with my mother) in the John Donelson chapter.
In the grand scheme of things, this rhetoric is about freedom, respect, acceptance not tolerance (as Amathaon said), and diversity. First I would like to elaborate on the gross issue, then on the specific issue of the flag.
To set my stage, I refer back to my comment “Judge me only when you completely understand me.” I will tell you a bit about myself.
I am a 37 y/o registered nurse. I work at a hospital in one of the (if not THE) most crime-riddled areas of middle TN. Quite often I help young “ethnic” people recover from injuries related to “gang violence.” One of my jobs is to not let stereotypes, pre (mis) conceptions, or my opinions get in the way of providing the best nursing care possible. In addition, I have estimated that over half of the nurses that I work with are black, Philipino, or from some culture other than my own typical Heinz 57 W.A.S.P. background. Many of the doctors with whom I work are from the Dominican Republic, Sudan, India, Pakistan, or Hispanic in origin. These doctors are among the best-of-the-best and are highly respected by my co-workers and me. Furthermore, the largest Kurdish community in America is less than 1 mile from the hospital; therefore, this is the hospital they choose. We must be aware of particular diets, social traditions, family dynamics, customs, and many other aspects of these cultures in order to be respectful of their needs. It is never “silly” for anyone to celebrate his or her heritage or culture and to expect this type of respect from others.
I am agnostic. I believe that the “separation of church and state” is exactly what it says it is. This country was founded on freedom, not Christianity as many avidly protest. One of our revered founding fathers attended black mass at the church of satan, Benjamin Franklin to be specific. How can the statement of Christianity being the foundation of the United States be true with this undisputable fact? At the same time, I believe that theology and evolution should be taught in public schools. This should be done without prejudice for one over the other. Why? Children need to be taught diversity and acceptance for ALL beliefs. No one belief should be placed above another. I recently saw the Bill Maher movie “Religulous.” It is hair-raising to think of the demise of our civilization over the argument of religion, however it seems very plausible. By the way, this also applies to the original argument of the flag in this string of messages. People often react to difference of opinion with violence
I believe in freedom for all humans to do as they will, as long as it harms no one else in the process. A bit of trivia…this is the Pegan “Golden Rule.” Included in my beliefs are more that the finite issue of the flag. I believe in pro-choice, the death penalty in extreme cases, freedom of press, freedom of speech, and gay marriage along with all of the benefits “traditional” marriages enjoy (I am straight, by the way) to name a few.
What is my point? Even if I agreed with your views Bobbo, and I don’t, I completely support your right to your own opinion. I once would have agreed with you 100%, but my mind was changed with indisputable historic fact. I used to believe that the Confederate Flag was nothing more than a homeland version of the Nazi flag. It was not until 7 or 8 years ago I opened myself to the fact that my understanding may be distorted by the victor-written authors of history books.
The winners of wars write the history books for obvious reasons that I won’t go into right now. Having a desire to know the truth, I did my own research. Not just talking with people, but reading, digging, questioning. Bobbo, if you could prove to me that ANY of my beliefs may possibly be wrong, it would be of the greatest importance to me to reevaluate them. I would like to submit a friendly challenge for you, Bobbo, to do that for me; prove me wrong.
Now for specific comments on this conversation… Bobbo, you asked me if I believed that the CW had NOTHING to do with slavery. Of course I don’t. The south was, as it is, highly agricultural. Manual labor was high in demand and low on supply. I am not trying to dispute historic fact. But think of it this way, how many times have you heard the statement “no blood for oil?” Do you think there would be so many men putting their lives at risk, missing births of their children, and being away from home for long stretches of time just because we don’t want to pay $4.25/gallon for gas? I don’t’ think so. In comparison, I know that my grandfathers did not fight to preserve the institution of slavery. The invasion of the south in 1861 was an illegal one, and the people of the states resisted. The south did not want war; it was Lincoln who made the decision to invade and fight this horribly bloody war for 4 years.
In perusing the various articles written about the states right to secede, I came across this one:
________________________________________________________________________
“Secession Crisis
U.S. Constitution “The Right To Secede” March 4, 1789
The first union of the original 13 colonies was affected by the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781. The articles established a confederation of sovereign states in a permanent union. The “permanence” lasted only until 1788, when 11 states withdrew from the confederation and ratified the new Constitution, which became effective on March 4, 1789. The founding fathers recognized the defects in the Articles of Confederation, learned from these defects, and scrapped the articles in favor of the “more perfect union” found in the Constitution.
Nowhere in the Constitution is there any mention of the union of the states being permanent. This was not an oversight by any means. Indeed, when New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia ratified the Constitution, they specifically stated that they reserved the right to resume the governmental powers granted to the United States. Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia. In his book Life of Webster Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge writes, “It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw.” A textbook used at West Point before the Civil War, A View of the Constitution, written by Judge William Rawle, states, “The secession of a State depends on the will of the people of such a State.”
Well into the 19th century, the United States was still viewed by many as an experimental confederation from which states could secede just as they had earlier acceded to it. It took a bloody war to prove them wrong.
Fascinating Fact: It is significant that no Confederate leader was ever brought to trial for treason. A trial would have brought a verdict on the constitutional legality of secession. Federal prosecutors were satisfied with the verdict that had been decided in battle.”
________________________________________________________________________
I could not have worded it better myself (that’s what “copy-paste” is for). The issue was the fact our own government had assumed absolute control which was not constitutional. That’s why my grandfathers fought, not to keep men in bondage. In fact, look up statistics on how many soldiers actually owned slaves. What in the world were non-slave holders fighting for?
Concerns about the CW, and how it relates to modern day seems to be a source of debate here. History ignored will invariably repeat itself. Let me explain my reasoning.
Do you remember when the support for invading Afghanistan was being drummed up? We were lied to by our government knowingly and repeatedly in order to gain our support. Where are all the mobile anthrax labs? We now know they never existed. Our president was creating terror in his own people with lies in order to fulfill his own agenda. This is not too far from what Lincoln did. I could talk forever about this, but I think this makes my point. If you ever get the chance, there is a book titled “The Giver” by Lois Lowry. I read this for an English Composition class several years ago. It is a light-reading fictional book, an allegory of sorts depicting the dangers of not realizing the lessons taught by history, but rather ignoring them, as they might be too painful. I’ll repeat myself here, history ignored will invariably repeat itself. Is that what we want OUR grandchildren? My grandfathers didn’t.
I have said enough for now, I have more but I will save it for later. Oh yeah, Bobbo, you should watch that movie (“2001 Maniacs”)! It’s great, Robert Englund is awesome in it!
I enjoy having this type of discussion. I hope that it does not fall on deaf ears, and I hope we will continue.
Respect.
*~syl~*
Hi Sylvia–I think you challenged me to find something you post is wrong? Well, we did not invade Afghanistan because of mobile anthrax labs. Now, I know that was a typo/brain spasm, I just wanted to demonstrate I read your post.
I’m afraid you have to be more specific about what you disagree with me about.
It was fun to read your post, waiting for the setup to finish and get to the punchline, but again, have to wait for specifics. Much of what I said is generic and hard to disagree with. I too recognized the decline in exchange==thats what happens with impasse and why I stopped.
Take any gym with 100 guys and give 50 blue shirts and the other 50 gray shirts. Eventually they will divide up and fight. Humans are silly group joiners like that. It makes no rational sense for anyone in the South to fight for the freedom to be taxed and regulated by Jefferson Davis rather than taxed and regulated by Lincoln. War is stupid. Being proud of its heritage is even worse.
Most people are dumb enough to allow something slightly more ambiguous than the color of T-Shirts to provide “motivation.” Pick your own poison.
1. Do you deny that “today” the confederate flags are offensive to many other people?
2. So, why be offensive? What do you get out of it?
#95 Yes, it isn’t unconstitutional. During the war of 1812 there was a real worry in Congress and the Executive that New England might choose secession. There was no talk of it being illegal as it wasn’t.
#98–Paddy==hardly matters what a piece of paper says if the Federal Government is willing to send troops into States to prevent secession, that is the controlling activity/issue. My first google on the issue says the Constitution itself is neutral on the issue but a court case says secession is not allowed:
Q65. “Where in the Constitution does it mention states’ right to secede from the union?”
A. The Constitution does not permit a state to secede once it is a part of the Union. However, it does not prevent it either. It could be argued either way. The Supreme Court added its opinion in Texas v White (74 US 700 [1869]). It said that the entry of Texas into the United States was its entry into “an indissoluble relation.” It said that only through revolution or mutual consent of the state and the United States could a state leave the Union (it is interesting to note that Texas benefited from the decision that it had unconstitutionally attempted to leave the Union).
http://www.usconstitution.net/constfaq_a4.html
It is rationally within EVERY Governments interest to prevent secession as all that does it create a hostile or competitive neighbor that would be harder to defeat later on.
Amathaon, keep up the good work! Your argument is well buttressed with solid empirical evidence.
Thank you Bobbo. Iraq, I appreciate your pointing this out. I do not, however, suffer from brain spasms, and frankly, I am offended by that statement for people who do have that particular malady.
I have little else to say regarding the main topic as I do not want to spend any more time on such a futile effort to speak sensibly with you, Bobbo. A few things I would like to clarify for you though…
Unfortunately I do not have punch line for you, Bobbo. I am not presenting you with a joke. If you can not understand the clear point being made for you, then you never will. There is no way to be more clear, you just choose not to see it. Perfect example: your review of “2001 Maniacs.” No stereotypes? Not offensive? Are you serious? There were (southern) hillbillies having sex with sheep! How is that not offensive AND a stereotype? I can understand you not seeing it as funny, but sheesh!
This is an “impasse” as you have said several times only because you make it so. Unrelated analogies such as guys with t-shirts in a gym and vague, flowery, metaphorical language is “intellectually weak” and does not support any of your “facts” whatsoever. Actually, many (if not most) of the links you have posted support the antithesis of all you are trying to prove.
Bobbo, I choose my battles wisely and therefore am through arguing with you, it’s painfully pointless. I’m glad you have confidence in yourself, your views, and your taste in movies however wrong they may be. You will never change my point-of-view with the tail-chasing arguments you are giving almost word-for-word over and over again; instead of stimulation, from you I am only gaining frustration and aggravation. Make no mistakes, I am not conceding to you, nor will I ever, considering your arguments. I just know when I need to “call it.”
If there is a God, he obviously has a great sense of humor, as we all should. Here’s just a bit of unsolicited medical advice for you, Bobbo. Do not take yourself, others, or life too seriously; doing so may result in your spending a fortune on Valium, Pepto-Bismol, and psychiatrist visits.
Always seek the truth.
*~syl~*
#100–Sylvia==ahh gee!!! And here I was thinking the same thoughts of you that you accuse me of. How does that happen?
Of the two groups, One thinking they should be able to raise the battle flag of the South and everyone else should understand it has only to do with pride of heritage and nothing insulting to anyone else,
or the group that thinks there is a broader context that fits that flag into an appreciation and sadness of the role of slavery in our history and culture,
yes, I much prefer the later group, and posting narrow facts and opinions with little analysis other than your heart felt quotes out of context will indeed not change anyone’s mind.
When was the last time you changed your mind? Give my best to Amathaon.
I got so excited there I forgot my textual argument:
Amathaon and Sylvia==if you review this thread you will see I take 4-5 different approaches to the issue of how raising the flag/slavery can be evaluated. Amathaon addressed but one of those routes==but concluded that the Nazi Flag is Nothing like the CW flag. Mere denial is to fail to see and contend with the anaology. Many people who get upset with the raising of the CW flag DO SEE IT as a NAZI flag.
Off the top of my head, I used other evaluative techniques:
1. Today vs Yesterday
2. Broad vs Narrow context
3. History being multi-casual not single.
4. Statements being political in nature as opposed to analytical.
5. History is subject to construct and not a discovered truth.
6. and more.
You very aggressively refuse to consider any opinion but your own. That leads to an isolated little group of people who do things like, like, like===well raise flags for instance or have pride in their heritage lacking pride in any current accomplishment.
As far a movie reviews (of which I am quite proud), you may have me there. I certainly have no stereotype of of Southerners being sheep molesters. Maybe that is a Tennessee thing?
Wow, I mean Wow. Ok before I say anything, I can tell tempers are a flarin. I would just like to remind everyone. This is just a friendly conversation over an article. It isn’t anything worth anyone getting upset about. So everyone just breathe.
Sylvia, I’m in the Col. Randal W. McGavock camp#1713 S.C.V. I am familiar with your U.D.C chapter. I have been to some of yalls functions. (Irish confederate dedication, Confederate Memorial Day service, The Lee, Jackson dinner. Ect.)
Paddy-O (I like the name), You are absolutely right about secession being legal. I would type in some facts but the article “Secession Crisis” that Sylvia put in her comment about covers it. In the article it says when New York, Road Island, and Virginia ratified the Constitution they reserved the right to resume the governmental powers granted to The United States. I will add this. This is the exact wording for New York:
” We the delegates of the people of New York …do declare and make known that the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whenever it shall become necessary to their happiness; that every power, jurisdiction, and right which is not by the said constitution clearly delegated to the congress of the United States or the department of the government thereof, remains to the people of the several states, or to their respective state government’s, to whom they may have granted the same.”
This was agreed to by the convention, and signed by the president. As Bobbo says it was not in the best interest for the U.S., but that doesn’t mater. It was legal. The “Texas v White case was decided in 1869. After the war was over
Bobbo, No I don’t see any sense of irony. I have already explained to you that the veterans were fighting to preserve the ideals of our founding fathers. And Liberty and Freedom are certainly two of them.
We do have black brothers in the S.C.V. one that is the most outspoken in brother H.K. Edgerton. If you have time then you should google him. We also have Hispanic, and Asian members also. The bulk of our membership is White, but it is about the same percentages as the veterans themselves.
I read the links you sent (except two of them that wouldn’t load). And I also watched a documentary on the KKK. It was biased but from what I can tell the Klan hates everyone. I did see David Duke on the documentary and he said, “We are not so much against the black people as much as we are for the white people. And I did see at the end of the article where he said “White Heritage”. I will have to give that to you. I can see where someone in the Klan could posibly join because of their pride in their “white heritage” without hating anyone. Weird but I can see it. The link about the CWRT was Interesting to me. I have attended a couple of CWRT meetings at a local chapter. The way they work is anyone is welcome. There is usually a diverse group of people there. Here in the south it is mostly confederate slanted (the bulk are SCV), and in the north Yankee slanted (most SUV) although everyone is welcome. The idea is everyone gets together and discusses issues pertaining to the war. I think it is twice a year there is a convention of the local chapters. This sounds like what was happening here.
This and the other links sound like our conversation on here. Back then forth. Your points, and then mine. I am impressed that you are looking. Keep it up. You will find stuff that agree with what you say, and stuff that agree with me. Investigate and then ask yourself what makes the most sense. The truth is out there.
When I saw where you asked Sylvia what do you get out of it. (Flying the flag)
I couldn’t believe it. After all of this. I will try to explain it again as clear as I can.
The Confederate battle flag is at the very core of my being. It is the very essence of who I am.
Look at it like this: Do you deny that “today” people are offended by the under god in the pledge of allegiance? So what do you get from the continued offense? Do you agree that “today” people are offended by the Star of David? So what do you get from the continued offense? Do you agree that “today” people are offended by the U.S. flag? So what do you get from the continued offence? This list could go on and on for everything that people find offensive. In most cases these things are sacred to the people to which they belong.
When I suggested that you watch “2001 maniacs” I didn’t mean to get anything started. It wasn’t meant to prove any point. I just thought you would think it was funny (Guess I was wrong) my taste in movies is quiet diverse. I like anything from stupid to serious and about everything in between. Now I know your taste are more “Elitist”.
I have also noticed by reading the post that we will never agree. I am aware that you think the same things about me that I do you. Things like: I can’t believe this guy. It is so obvious why doesn’t he see it. You think you are looking at the Broad and I narrow. I think the opposite.
Lets simplify this as much as we can. Basically you think the issue hinges on people today being offended. And I think that it depends on what the confederate veteran was fighting for. Do you agree with this assumption? If so I have a solution. We can answer both of these questions definitely. Regardless of the outcome doesn’t mean you have to fly a flag or I take mine down. It will just make us aware of where we stand on our views. If you are right then I am man enough to say it and if we do this and you are right then it will make me aware of how offensive I am to my fellow human beings. I am sure that both of us want to know if we are looking at these issues wrong.
Here is what I propose.
1: I have been made aware of a book at the Tennessee state archives. It is a questionnaire given to surviving confederate veterans after the war. This weekend I will go and look at it. I will make notes on the first 50 soldiers on their reason for fighting. I will not pick and choose. I will take the first 50. If one says “I fought to keep the slaves in bondage” I will tell you. The only way this won’t work is if I cant find the book or this isn’t one of the questions. (Which I sure it would be) Where better to find out the motive then straight form the source.
The issue of People being offended by the flag. You think that most folks are and I am aware that people are but, not to the extent that you do. I think most people wouldn’t be that upset by it. This is what we should do. Call it a social experiment.
2: The two of us should come up with a short questionnaire; both of us go out and interview 100 people each. Then report back with the findings.
I will get it started. Da Rulz: 1 when we go out to interview don’t wear anything that would influence what people say. For me this means I wont wear a Dixie outfitters T-shirt (which I usually do) or anything else to let people know where I Stand on this Issue. I don’t guess you would have a problem with this. (No battle flags with an X through them or anything like that.) You get it.2 we both need to ask the same questions and collect the same info. 3 Do not act or say anything that would influence the people we are questioning in any way. Give no opinions of you own. 4. We can’t ask anyone we know as the Framing you spoke of might influence this. No family of friends or coworkers ECT… Only strangers. 4. Don’t collect info from anyone under 15. 5. When you approach a group of people only interview 1 person from the group as this might fall into the frame and would be unfair numbers because friends are more that likely think alike. 6. Try to approach as many diverse people as possible. (Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Men, and Women of all ages from as many places as possible.)
Questions (Info to keep)
1-age 2-sex 3-race 4-home state 5-(Show a picture of a battle flag) and ask, “Do you think this is offensive?” 6-ask “what does it represent to you?”
Ask these questions in these exact words. I will collect 100 and you collect 100. We will just have to trust each other that we wont cheat. I swear on the sacred cloth of my confederate flag I will not cheat. And I will not “lead” the people into what I want them to say. Nor will I select anyone based on what they look like (someone who I think will agree with my point of view). I will be as diverse as possible, and you do the same. I have the perfect place to do this experiment. There is a mall not too far of a drive on toward Nashville. No one there is from here. People there are tourist from everywhere.
If you have any revision on the rules or the wording of the questions ECT… let me know ASAP we need to agree on exact wording. I would like to do this this weekend.
I have a feeling one of us will be surprised at the results. Or maybe both of us will be right depending on where you are from.
I am looking forward to this experiment. Are you up to it? Even if you don’t have the time or just don’t want to I am going to do it anyways. Then I will report back.
It will be interesting. I will check back tomorrow night if I can get to the computer.
When I started typing this I really meant for this to be short and to the point.
Amathaon
Bobbo, Glad I got back before you. I Have a suggested revision.
Wording for #5- ask “do you think this flag is offensive?” By adding the word flag this makes sure they know we are talking about the flag not the picture. (Might sound like it doesn’t make a difference but it might)
Wording for #6- ask “Does this flag mean anything to you?” if yes then “What?” a lot of people might not care about the flag in one way or another. asking “What does it represent to you” it might make them think they have to come up with something which might lead to bad info. The new wording gives them a chance to say “Doesnt mean anything to me” which would be more honest info.
Let me know if these wordings are cool with you.
If you don’t mind me asking what state do you live in? You already know my home is Tennessee.
Ready to take it to the streets. Amathaon
Amathaon==you crack me up. Can you “really” be this “nice?” Very disarming.- – – No, thankfully, I still have my arms.
I’m not much for taking polls. Did enough of that in college–psycho-social studies. I admire the suggestion EXCEPT for it is unclear just what the actual point in contention now is?
I had in mind what YOU got out of flying the flag-just as you have confirmed. I was wondering what Sylvia got out of it. I won’t just assume all you flag waivers are “exactly” the same ==just too much the same. (I say, thats a joke Son!)
Most people can’t identify who Dick Cheney is by a picture, so asking if they find a picture of any flag, or the flag that is shown is offensive would scarcely raise a murmur, probably not even a swastika for too many more years, just a nice piece of jewelry?
No, the question would have to be more to the underlying history of it. Do you think the CW Battle Flag should be flown in public or some such with 50 variations immediately apparent. Gets confusing as I don’t think such flying should be outlawed, its just in bad taste.
I think YOU think that everyone should give you a pass on your “taste” because you truly believe you are only honoring something and not offending anyone if they would only understand/agree with your version of history. But what if people don’t agree? What then?
It is politically correct to stop something enjoyed because some small group of nitwits doesn’t like it==take the celebration of Halloween. Pretty dumb to stop it because a few think it is pagan or insulting to god.
You admit “some” people find the CW flag offensive. What percentage of people would have to think it offensive before you agreed it was in poor taste? YOUR reason for being remaining intact, but your empathy aroused for the counterpoint?
I grew up thinking Richard Pryor was only being funny when calling women “bitches.” I meant nothing impolite when I repeated it. Enough people had negative reactions that I decided maybe Richard Pryor, a standup comedian, wasn’t the standard for social intercourse.
This issue is in my mind mostly one about to what community do you become socialized? A narrow flag honoring one, or a larger society containing at least many blacks and fewer but still many “anti-war” folks, and then even to grumps like me who don’t like “ceremony/symbolism” of any kind–it makes otherwise normal people into zombies.
You are right, I can’t imagine any set of “facts”/attitudes/opinions that could change my mind. If you say the same is true for you, I have to believe you.
Result: more than before, I recognize some people really do go around “honoring” inanimate objects and finding meaning in the past. You could recognize the mirror opposite, there are in deed people who find your core belief system nothing but silly. We can stare at each other in mystification, and yet we are all homo sapiens, citizens of the world, Americans, “good Americans” according to definition?
I’ll read your posts again tomorrow and see if I left anything important out.
Amathaon–ok, lots of loose threads, lots of questions we have both asked and not answered by the other. I thought most of yours were rhetorical in nature, but maybe not?
Unlike Sylvia, I think you are giving this issue a fair read. I am impressed you read and understand David Duke is trying to sell the KKK as “white heritage.” That is marketing in face of great resistance. It is BS wrapped in something else not quite so BS but BS nonetheless. So is your Southern Heritage position. Its BS. Difference being, you personally may be ((actually sounds like you ARE)) one of those few people that likewise could join the KKK thinking it is only about white heritage.
I wanted simply to answer loose threads, but I see I am drawn to the real crux here. From my point of view, you refuse to see the simple truth. In fact, the South was about enforcing SLAVERY. Doesn’t matter if THEN or NOW most (white) people view it more generically about “States Rights” and Freedom (for the white man). Factually, it was all about SLAVERY. I think maybe you and Sylvia simply aren’t empathetic enough to confront the horror of Slavery. “Slavery was on its way out and would have ended in a few years anyway.”===uh huh. Like whats wrong with the ABOMINATION continuing just a little while more? Cutting hamstrings to prevent run aways, whipping, breaking up families, rape, no medical care, worked to death==let it continue for a while more so I can express my longing to be free from excessive taxation. Stupid, hypocritical and dishonest to think that argument carries weight, or that it can be avoided by any other orientation.
Well, so much for a light hearted review of loose threads. I’ll stop here, cool off, and address the loose threads later. Like 2001 Maniacs. It lost credibility for me when the girl was drawn and quartered. You see, the last arm or leg would stay with the body and not be severed leaving the corpse in the same position when the torture started. I think horror/gross out shows should remain true to basic laws of physics. (Again, I’m joking.) Maybe I’ve just seen too many of the genre lately. Last House in 15 different places, Hostel, Saw, New Wave Polish Gore, Girls Gone Wild. Its too much all the same.
Bobbo, I don’t see any need for you to go back and answer any “loose threads”. We have both already figured out that it wouldn’t make any difference any way. We would just continue our back and forth like it seems that we have been doing. I would normally take the time to address your opinions about me joining the Klan or how you believe the propaganda of the evil slave owner and how he worked his slaves to the point of death then whipped them and made them work more. (Which I know beyond a shadow of doubt was not the way it was) But there would be no point in it. So I wont bother.
The two things I would like to find out in my experiments are. 1- What was the soldier fighting for. (My point), and 2-How many people are “offended” by the flag in today’s world. (Your point)
I am going to go ahead with the experiments just because I want to know.
I will also add (Exact wording) “Do you think it is ok to fly this flag in public?” as a third question. Is this wording ok with you or do you have a more neutral wording for it? Let me know tonight if you can as I hope to do this tomorrow.
In your obedient service, Amathaon
P.S. I have Hostel, and Saw. Liked them both. Haven’t seen the other ones. I’m waiting for my Girls gone wild to get here in the mail. (J/K)
Amathaon
Bobbo, I am about to start the survey. The 3 questions are:
1-Do you think this flag is offensive?
2-Does it evoke positive, negative, or indifferent feelings in you?
3-Do you think it is okay to fly this flag in public?
These are the most neutral wordings I can think of.
Will report back, Amathaon
Amathaon==we may not change either persons mind, yet the exchange has been valuable anyway. While my rhetoric is consistent with an argument to change your mind, my considered intent is really just to expose you to the simplest of facts that other people do in fact disagree. How your attitude may change over the years goes to that clear headed/pureness of heart paradigm. You did that for me.
BEFORE you go spending your time on surveys, you might do some work on how you are going to evaluate the results. How many opinions one way or the other does it take to mean what? What is your target survey group? Why not the local NAACP office and their visitors? How about the local black pride museum?
You know “for a fact” what happened to 3 million slaves in the South huh? ((Surprisingly, the number of slaves is hard to find==here is but one: http://books.google.com/books?id=_lWJPdemPqMC&pg=PT17&lpg=PT17&dq=1861+%22number+of+slaves+in+America%22&source=web&ots=30smk7lcOT&sig=ixXEFumw4OeJpjtbkTfCzAiegzU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPT19,M1))
but on the treatment of slaves, I don’t want you to become an apologist. So far, you have been that rare “white heritage KKK’er” but already you show denial.
One of the loose strings I wanted to compliment your organization on is being “open to all.” Another avenue of evaluation is “inclusive vs exclusive” and I skipped it not wanting to load it on with “broad vs narrow” being very much the same. You already have a long running survey that gives you an answer==how many blacks have joined your society? And it would indeed be interesting to buy your one black member a few beers and talk about these issues.
Another loose thread is going to that repository and reading the statements of the CW soldiers. I think that would be very interesting. I’ll give you a dollar or a beer for each soldier that says “To keep slaves on the plantation.”==ie I doubt there would be one. Wars are sold on patriotism, the underlying reasons being incohate.
“Do you think it is ok to fly this flag in public?” /// OK is certainly ambiguous enough to be thought of as neutral, except it comes after your push poling in questions 1 and 2. What people think is more ambiguous than what they themselves would DO! eg “Would you fly this flag at your house?” but that introduces many variables as well. Three question surveys tell you nothing. There are PHD courses of study in how to poll, your exercise will be more about having a good time doing something different.
Gather statistics along with the poll: age, sex, race, education, military service. Those demographics are usually more interesting than the raw survey results.
Good luck, and do have fun.
Bobbo, reporting in. My trip to the archives wasn’t as productive as I hoped. I found the surveys. There are five volumes. It was very interesting to read what the Vets had to say but unfortunately there were no question that addressed their motives for fighting. There were I think 46 questions in all. Most of them were pertaining to Status of life before as compared to after the war. There were questions like “Did you or you parents own slaves before the war?” Very few did. There were also questions like “How many white men in your community led lives of idleness while they had others work for them?” It was overwhelmingly “None, Not eny, Nobody was Idle, Everyone worked, Not as many as today by a long shot.” There were no answers that pointed to the “Uncle Toms Cabin” mentality where the slave owners sat on the porch drinking lemonade while the slaves were in the field being worked to death. In the rare case that someone owned slaves they usually worked beside them in the fields. I know this for a fact. There was one story from one of the Vets. His answer to the question as to if he or his parents own slaves. His father did. When a slave woman with three children died the “master” adopted the 3 children. The vet and his siblings were the three slave children. So their master became their father (sort of an 1840’s “Diff’rent Strokes,” assuming the master was white). As far as finding the Vets motives for fighting, I will have to find somewhere else to get their words on it.
I have started my “current day” survey to find out just how offensive the flag is today. It is going to take longer to get my 100 answers. I got 29 done before I got kicked out of the mall by a very nice security guard (kinda expected that would happen). I think my next attack will be downtown Nashville as there are tourists there also. My target group is a good representation of the general public. I wont be polling at the NAACP, or the local black pride museum, just as I wont be polling the other SCV, MOSB, or any other heritage organization. I am also not looking for how many people would fly a flag themselves but rather how many are be offended by others flying it. The demographics I am keeping are: Sex, age, home state, and ethnicity. I think that Military service would have been an excellent one to keep up with as this would be very interesting, but I have already started and want to keep it consistent. I don’t want to give any results until I get the complete 100. I will say that it is interesting listening to people’s views. I will let you know when I get them all.
There are a lot more that one black member in the SCV. I don’t know how many but I have met a few. Brother Edgarton is just the most outspoken. He goes all across the south defending our ancestors, the flags, the southern quest for independence, etc. Interesting fact He, used to be the president of the North Carolina chapter of the NAACP. They kicked him out when he joined the SCV. (Where is the discrimination coming from there?) In his own words he said he sees no conflict to belong to both groups.
I guess I will address you accusation of me being the rare white heritage KKK’er since you again mentioned it. First of all, I am intelligent enough to know what the KKK is about. So I would never be suckered in to joining anyway. But lets just say I bought the white heritage thing and joined. My membership would be short lived. As I have already mentioned I am for the equality of everyone. In the first meeting, probably the first 30 seconds, as soon as the first mention of hate towards any particular group or superiority of ones culture over someone else’s I would be gone. And you know as well as me that is the focus of the Klan. Like I have already said, celebrate your own heritage and let everyone else do the same. Discrimination (hate) has no place. Live and let live.
The link you sent wouldn’t open. This is the 3rd one that wouldn’t open. It says ”You have either reached a page that is unavailable or reached your viewing limit for this book.”
I will let you know about the survey when I get all the info
Amathaon
Amathaon==all the links I posted work for me. I’m using Firefox 3.0.
I’ve been doing a slow burn for the last few days. You are “apologizing” for slavery to the point that “it wasn’t so bad.” Do you think that one slave owner working in the fields just as hard as his one slave proves anything except that one situation? SO–with that ABHORRENT mind set in full view, yes==you are acting just like a “white heritage KKK’er.”
Now I do doubt (hope?) you would never treat your fellow man the way some owners did treat their slaves ((or is it your position abuse NEVER happened?–ie abuse more than simply being a slave? (SIC!!!!!!!!))–but your associations certainly put you a few footsteps down that trail.
The confederate flag is symbollic for anti-black/anti-equality positions just like the KKK who also fly that flag.
Why do you think the KKK fly that flag?
I thought this after reading the following news report of hate groups flying the flag:
http://www.tnr.com/toc/story.html?id=1060be43-207e-4bdf-9140-ed6b8092152f
So–please confirm whether or not “on balance” slavery was good or bad. You seem to be ambivalent or conflicted==meaning you post to both sides of the question. Assuming you say it is bad, why associate with a group that by degree approaches the position that it was good?
I’ll be interested in how many blacks you polled, assuming you got mostly white folks. ((Happy to be proved wrong.))
Your black fellow traveler does sound like an interesting dude==like Dave Chappelle playing the blind KKK’er. Like your survey, the interesting question is never the first one or two, but rather the questions at the end of the cul-de-sac only reached by a longer conversation.
Bobbo, One slave owner working in the field with his one slave? Where did this info come from? This was not a singular event, but the standard. Do I think that abuse never happened? Certainly it did. There is no question of that. Just as there are abusive people today who beat their wives and kids. There have always been abusive people. But just like today, these abusive people are not the standard but the exception.
As I have already said (many times) I am for the equality of everyone, and also like I have already said slavery was defiantly wrong. No human being should be considered Property. Freedom for everyone. Again EVERYONE.
The Confederate flag is symbolic for anti black/anti equality positions = your opinion which is wrong. Besides, I thought you were of the opinion that it was how it is viewed today that was the issue. Have you changed your mind?
Does The Klan fly the Battle flag? Yes they do. Completely out of ignorance. They do so because they get reactions from people like you. This becomes a vicious cycle. They carry it, you associate with hate. You associate it with hate, so they carry it. They started carrying it in the mid 50s. Before then, and even the predominate flag carried today by the Klan is the U.S. Flag. You will never see them without the U.S. flag. You will see them without the “Confederate flag”.
Does the U.S. flag = hate? They also carry the Christian flag. Does the Christian flag = hate?
I don’t think so. These flags are just misused by a hateful bunch if ignorant people.
Something to look at http://www.37thtexas.org/html/restore.html
This time your link opened but the only thing pertaining to the “confederate flag” is where someone pulled up an Obama sign and replaced it with a “Confederate flag”. Is this what you wanted me to see?
It seems to me that you are closer to a KKK’er then me. You come across as intolerant and hateful. I don’t want to upset you but you keep accusing me of this and this is rather insulting. Please don’t take this as me attempting to be aggressive as I am not.
The only thing H.K. Edgarton has in common with Clayton Bigsby is he is black (that is a funny skit by the way).
I wasn’t going to share any data until the survey was done but I will tell you this. As of today I have polled: 13 White, 12 black, 2 Jewish, 2 Asian, and 1 Indian. As I said I am trying to get a good representation of the general public.
Sill with the utmost respect, Amathaon
Alright. that time it let put my link in.
Amathaon
I am aware that this isn’t the SCV, but it doesn’t matter. It’s proud southerners taking back what is rightfully ours.
Amathaon
Looks like you have a good survey going there. Kudos. Now==before you finish the survey, are you going to set how many yes or no votes to what questions mean what? Conclusions drawn AFTER facts assembled are not as strong as predetermined profiles.
Slippery slope indeed to cast a person as the opinions they hold, or the activities they engage in. You think “I” am hateful because I say that YOU are engaged in honoring a tradition that is entwined with SLAVERY that is an ABHORENT institution. YOU say slavery wasn’t that bad because the typical sourthern slave owner worked just as hard as the slave he owned? That’s not even sophistry, that’s just plain stupid. You have been brainwashed. And I mean brainwashed in the most complimentary way possible. Otherwise you would just be mean, evil, and twisted.—Like David Duke.
I do wonder what came first, your Disneyesque vision of plantation life ((No—the slaves were happy picking cotton and singing)) or your pride in Southern Heritage that somehow finds a need to lessen the terrible reality that underpinned the entire Southern experience?
Just google (treatment of slaves on plantations) and keep that pure heart of yours open.
On some loose threads, looks like “factually” you are wrong about the typical master/slave ratios:
Number of Slaves:
http://members.aol.com/Jfepperson/stat.html
On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.
http://www.aagsnc.org/columns/oct99gems.htm
Understanding slave schedules is made easier when the researcher makes note of the number of slaves owned by an individual. Streets states that millions of slaves lived either as the sole Black inhabitant or in a small unit on small farms scattered throughout the slave states.[2] Genovese asserts that only half of the slaves in the South lived on “plantations” with twenty slaves and only one-fourth of the slaves lived on large plantations with fifty slaves.[3]
When people deny the Holocaust of 68 years ago when eyewitness testimony is still available, I guess it is unavoidable the CW will get its own whitewash as well.
As far as taking back what is rightfully yours- – – thats backwards looking. Your kiddies future is in the opposite direction.
Bobbo, thanks for the kudos, I’m not sure what it is you are wanting me to do. Please give an example “set how many yes or no votes to what questions mean what”.
I never said “slavery wasn’t that bad” those are the words you used. In fact if you look I said the exact opposite. “Freedom for everyone” (I think that’s about the 10th time I said that.) I am not interested in honoring slavery, but I am interested in honoring my ancestors. Has nothing at all to do with slavery. I think the most intelligent comment that relates to this issue posted so far on this message board (you and myself included) is “Northern Response” on 10-08 and all he did was to fly by and post. He doesn’t sound like he is pro confederate but he hit the nail directly on the head.
I googled “treatment of slaves on plantations” and “slave master relationships”, “relationships between master and slaves” etc. I found sites where they say it was horrible, no food, no health care ect…and I found sites that say things were great, plenty of food, good hours, good health care, and everyone was happy ect… also I looked for what percentage of households owned slaves and found numbers like 5%, 10%, 25%, and 33%. If you want me to I can find this out for sure. I could go back to the archives and keep count on the question “did you or your parents own slaves?” I know that it wasn’t many. (Probably wouldn’t be this weekend, but next.)
“On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.” I don’t know if the numbers are right but I don’t see any thing to dispute here. (If this value is true do you really think someone would cut the slave’s hamstrings? Really?)
“Understanding slave schedules is made easier when the researcher makes note of the number of slaves owned by an individual. Streets states that millions of slaves lived either as the sole Black inhabitant or in a small unit on small farms scattered throughout the slave states. [2] Genovese asserts that only half of the slaves in the South lived on “plantations” with twenty slaves and only one-fourth of the slaves lived on large plantations with fifty slaves [3].” Again I am not sure on the numbers but I don’t see anything to dispute.
And I have heard testimonies from the slaves themselves. There were cameras in the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s. It wasn’t that long ago. I’m not even sure why I bothered with this paragraph as I have already said I’m not interested in honoring slavery, but rather my ancestors. And as far as what my ancestors were fighting for. It really wasn’t an issue.
I am glad to report that this time your links opened.
My heritage is my children’s heritage also. Yes it is looking back, but also ahead. I don’t expect you to understand this.
Until next time, Amathaon
Amathaon–you continue to seduce. So wrong, yet seemingly so reasonable
Ties in quite directly to your question of me (which I find interesting out of your context): “What do I want you to do?”
In your context: Its important, or would have been, to have fit your results into statistically valid interpretations. How many people of what race, sex, age, education need to say raising the flag is bad before you should seriously consider not being part of a group that does so? One stranger saying so (such as myself) is not statistically valid, but what if that person was your own grandfather? What if “everyone” said it was wrong? What if 10% said so? Sadly, and parallel to an understanding of history, “facts” still need to be interpreted and fit into frameworks of values.
From my viewpoint, what do I want? I said earlier simply to introduce you to the fact other people do disagree with your position. On some level, emotionally, like everyone else, I suppose I also want everyone to agree with me? Intellect battling with emotions. Teaching myself thru repetition to accept in others what I can’t change.
When you are part of a group that raises a Confederate Flag, yes, you are saying “to some degree” that varies from person to person that slavery wasn’t that bad. Now, you can disagree with that reasoning, but it is the reasoning that people have who do happen to find flying the CW flag repugnant. You can disagree and ignore them, but you shouldn’t further pretend they/we/I don’t exist. Its just different values being expressed in a multi-cultural society. Its not being politically correct. You want to honor your heritage/ancestors/flag and so do the great grandchildren of slaves. Its not PC for them to be revolted by that which represents the bondage they were once held in.
Do you understand what “linkage” means? A causes B which is good but B causes C which is bad. You can’t have B without C. A is pride. B is the Old South and its CW Flag. C is Slavery. In my case, the negative value of C exceeds B, so no flag for me. YOU devalue C, and so B is unfurled and displayed. You tend to state C is bad, but not so bad you aren’t desirous of flying the flag.
I note you conflate pride in your ancestors with the CW Flag, the secession, liberty, your heritage, etc. They are all separate things, related, interacting, but still each separate. Each element needs to be considered and not treated as synonyms for one another.
You said at #113: “There were no answers that pointed to the “Uncle Toms Cabin” mentality where the slave owners sat on the porch drinking lemonade while the slaves were in the field being worked to death.” /// Yet you did or can google that such things certainly did happen. You don’t own 20 to 50 or more slaves and go out in the fields to get your lace dirty.
At #109 you say: “how you believe the propaganda of the evil slave owner and how he worked his slaves to the point of death then whipped them and made them work more. (Which I know beyond a shadow of doubt was not the way it was) /// Yet you did or can google that such things certainly did happen.
“Values or Ignorance?” I hope its ignorance. That can be cured by reading, doing surveys, googling, talking to people of opposite opinion.
Bobbo, I can see in my quotes that you present how you would interpret them as me saying that abuse never happened. Please know that wasn’t my intent. I assumed that you were saying that this treatment was the standard. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I am aware that abuse did happen, and I am also aware of the “Disneyesque” idea also happened. Neither was the standard, but I believe the standard for the majority of the slave population was somewhere in the middle. I myself am of the opinion that there was a worse atrocity then abuse. That is just slavery itself. I would imagine if I were a slave even under the best “Disneyesque” conditions. I would make an attempt to run away. Just the fact that my life is not my own and would be at the mercy of someone else would be all the motivation I would need to seek freedom.
The only problem I can see with “Linkage” is A causes B, B causes C, even if C is acceptable then what about D, then E and so on? Eventually something will offend, and if this dictates what you should or shouldn’t do, then like I said before, everyone would be the same. Then so much for the diversity we have that makes us so unique.
I am aware others disagree with me, I wasn’t aware of the extent until this conversation. I am learning a lot. I am also aware that we will never agree on this topic. I also, like you, would like for everyone to agree with me. But, the reality is that everyone will never agree with everything. I guess in a way that’s a good thing. Just because we don’t see eye to eye is no reason to be “enemies”, personally I don’t like having “enemies.” I’m not the “enemy” type. Sort of like the CWRT. People get together with different views and talk about them civilly. Then, afterwards go to Shoney’s, or whatever.
I guess what I am saying is, we just have different opinions, and that’s okay.
I don’t think the survey will change either one of our minds. It will just make us aware of what the general public thinks, and maybe our opinions don’t fit into that as much as we might think they do.
I am going out of state this weekend so I might not get much done on the survey. If I can, I will try to squeeze in a few more interviews. I’ll let you know how it goes.
With much respect, Amathaon