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St. Petersburg Times

TAMPA — Next year, a giant Confederate flag may tower above the tree line near the junction of Interstate 75 and Interstate 4. The Sons of Confederate Veterans wants drivers in the Tampa area to see the massive flag — 30 feet high and 50 feet long — atop a 139-foot pole, the highest the Federal Aviation Authority would allow. It would be lit at night. With the pole already in the ground and building permits in hand, the group is on its way to having what it calls the “world’s largest” Confederate flag in place by mid 2009. The group just needs about $30,000 more, said Douglas Dawson, a division commander. Several nearby business owners don’t mind. It’s history, they say, and it’s on private property.

The county has wrestled with sensitive Confederate issues in the past. In 1994, the Confederate flag was removed from the county seal. Last year, county commissioners recognized Confederate commander Robert E. Lee on the same day they honored a black civic leader. Commissioners later apologized and haven’t since recognized Lee. Flags Across Florida started about eight years ago, after the Confederate flag was removed from the Capitol in Tallahassee. So far the group has two major flags erected: one in Suwannee County along Interstate 75 and one in Havana along U.S. 27.

Adams insists the flag isn’t about racism or slavery. “It’s about honoring our ancestors and about celebrating our heritage,” he said. “It’s a historical thing to us.”

Damn, where’s the Homeowners Association when you need them?




  1. Amathaon says:

    I am never surprised at how ridiculous peoples comments are. I am a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and I can assure you the people in the S.C.V. know the difference between the confederate flag and the battle flag. They are flying the battle flag for a reason, to honor our ancestors. The battle flag is the proper flag for this as it is the flag of the soldiers. The war was not about race or the preservation of slavery; the south was fighting to preserve the values that the U.S. was founded on. For us, it was about Independence from a tyrannical government. Lincoln did not save the union, he changed it. Had we of lost the first war for Independence against the British, this would be the same group of people bashing our ancestors and calling them traitors for fighting agents this great country of ours (Britain). It seems to me that if you want to see some hateful people then read some of the comments on this page. By the way, we just raised a giant Battle flag In Trimble TN by I-155, 20 x 30 ft on an 85 ft pole. It was a majestic sight.

  2. #61

    “Sons of Confederate Veterans”?? Jeez, if your father fought in the Civil War, you must be older than dirt!!

    Just as an aside, do you belong to the KKK?

  3. bobbo says:

    #61–Amathaon====jeebeesus!!! What kind of inbred idiot are you?

    Stupid Southern poor white trash fought so that Northern and English land barons could keep the entire area under their feudal boots.

    Seems to have worked well with 4th generation fools still buying the program. Hah. Hah!!!!! Dolts. (Big time!!! as Cheney might say.

  4. Amathaon says:

    Mister Mustard, I have 4 grandfathers that served for the Confederate states army. 2 2x great and 2 3x great,If you include uncles and cousins I have
    found about 50 family members so far that served in the defense of this great land. I am not in the KKK. As a mater of fact I am about the least racist person that you will ever meet. Like I said it has nothing to do with race. And Bobbo, Sorry to burst you bubble of what you would like to think southerners are like but I am not inbred in anyway. I can tell from the hateful tone of you msg. (calling me an “Inbred Idiot”) That you have no interest in the truth. No mater what I say you have already decided to be closed minded and believe the lies you have been taught . The war was started for the same reason as the first war for independence. over unfair taxes placed on the goods coming into South Carolina. If you want to know what the war was truly about to lincoln Here is a Quote from him “If the south is allowed to secede who will pay for the country.” every state that seceded had the right to do so. when each state ratified the constitution each one said that they had the right to leave the union. South Carolina decided
    to act on it. Lincoln had no right to invade the
    South. He knew it but did it anyway.

  5. bobbo says:

    #64–Amathaon==ok, I’ll back off a wee bit. Some people thought as you say, some thought as I say. Discussing “the rights” of states is rather ironic given the rights of slaves at the time. Regardless of what the truth is, the institution of slavery was an abomination and it doesn’t matter what else may have been legitimately on the table.

    When you fight for a state that enslaves people, you are worse than an inbred idiot. Yes, the morality of the 21rst Century being applied==as opposed to the morality of the 19th your are trying to give it.

    Choose your century.

  6. Amathaon says:

    Bobbo I agree completely with what you said about the institution of slavery being an abomination.I am all about freedom for everyone. But like I said It was not about slavery. Let me give you another quote from Lincoln before he made the emancipation proclamation.”If I could preserve the Union by freeing all the slaves, I would do it. If I could preserve the Union by freeing no slaves, I would keep them all in bondage. If I could preserve the Union by freeing some and leaving others enslaved, I would do that.” Lincoln and Grant both owned slaves. Grant did not free his slaves until after the war. and if you read Lincolns Emancipation proclamation he only attempted to free the slaves in the confederate states.He did not free them in the northern states where Slavery still was legal. He calls the states by name. He even goes as far as to break it down into countys in MO. Saying they are free in this county and not in this one. If it was about slavery then there was no need for us to leave in the first place. Slavery would of not lasted much longer anyway. it would of died out peaceful. as it should have.
    Respectfully, Amathaon

  7. Amathaon says:

    I am sorry, the states that he breaks down into counties is Louisiana and Virginia. Not Missouri.

  8. bobbo says:

    Well Amathaon you are simply demonstrably objectively ALWAYS wrong when you say, think, propagandize that any event in history is limited to one or two or even three or four areas of interest.

    I already said that some people may have your view and that others have mine. You don’t help your own understanding by going back to repeating what you already said or by adding Lincoln’s opinion either.

    Why don’t you step back and THINK about ALL the issues that were floating around whether or not they were talked about, whether or not anyone even thought about it at the time?

    You need to raise your standards and understand that slavery taints anything else the Sourth may have been legitimately about. To do otherwise is to condone that institution. How much longer would slavery have continued if the South had peacefully separated from the Union? Is whatever you think you are arguing for worth that abomination?

    You can’t say you are against slavery and then argue for the very conditions necessary for it to exist. I sense you haven’t connected the dots on this issue. If you focus on one part of a picture, you cetainly can’t see the other parts.

    Step back and look at the entire picture.

  9. Amathaon says:

    Bobbo, all I am trying to do is to show that the confederate battle flag is not a racist symbol. Although some have misused it and detracted from it rightful glory.Such as the KKK for example. I am aware that slavery did exist, but it wasnt just a southern thing. As for quoting Lincoln. I was showing that slavery wasnt what started the war.I am not sure as how long slavery would of lasted if allowed to die out, but I dont believe it would of been very much longer. If this was the cause for the war as some people say, I dont think it was worth the death of more than 600,000 americans North and South to free them a generation earlier. There were alot of issues in the war but simply put: To us it was Independence. to the north Money.
    In your humble service, Amathaon

  10. Amathaon says:

    Bobbo, all I am trying to do is to show that the confederate battle flag is not a racist symbol. Although some have misused it and detracted from it rightful glory.Such as the KKK for example. I am aware that slavery did exist, but it wasnt just a southern thing. As for quoting Lincoln. I was showing that slavery wasnt what started the war.I am not sure as how long slavery would of lasted if allowed to die out, but I dont believe it would of been very much longer. If this was the cause for the war as some people say, I dont think it was worth the death of more than 600,000 Americans north and South to free them a generation earlier. There were alot of issues in the war but simply put: To us it was Independence. to the north Money.
    In your obedient service, Amathaon

  11. bobbo says:

    #69–Amathaon==we have reached impasse.

    Love live the South.

  12. bobbo says:

    Ah shoot, I normally don’t correct myself, but:

    Long live the South.

    ((and since I’m at it==wisdom is opening yourself up to more than one idea. Few things are as simple, as black and white (sic) as you present here. You “might” agree that to most blacks the Civil War was about their freedom. I guess they are all just wrong too because —— you have your brain fixed on some other issue. Well, let it age, maybe with time you might see it.))

  13. Amathaon says:

    Bobbo, We have reached an agreement my friend. Long live Freedom.

  14. Sylvia says:

    Being lucky enough to be born and raised in Tennessee, as were many of my grandfathers, grandmothers, uncles and cousins in generations past I have a strong understanding of what the flag represents.

    I have a detailed family tree following my family back to arrival to America (pre-Civil War). My ancestors worked very hard in order to have the land, the produce, and the livestock. When we were invaded during the Civil War, Union troops pillaged farms, raped women and girls, killed fathers and sons. To top it off, houses were burned to the ground and all resources for survival were destroyed to prevent the remaining civilians from having the means of basic survival. The point of this…

    My grandfathers, grandMOTHERS, uncles, cousins, as well as most other Southerners were fighting to save the south, their families, their belongings, the farms, and everything else that was ripped from so many by the Union.

    Why am I so proud of that? The Southern troop fought for not only themselves, but also for future generations. I may not be here if they had not been “heroes” and sacrificed, or at the very least endangered their own lives. That in itself is due the highest level of honor.

    No argument, slavery is a crime against humanity. However, the issue of slavery was a last-ditch effort by an evil man named Abraham Lincoln to gain control during the atrocity of the “War of Northern Aggression.” Slavery was not the cause, Lincoln could not have cared any less about destroying the institute of slavery. The war was about money, taxes, Southern ports, and benevolent (unconstitutional) control over the right of ANY state to secede.

    Furthermore, if Lincoln had not twisted the Civil War into a humanitarian issue, slavery would have inevitably died a natural death. It is my conclusion (as well as others) that had this been allowed to happen, racism would not have escalated to the levels it did during the 1900’s. The economic and educational gap would probably not exist as it does today. When the Emancipation Proclamation was put into place, many of the slaves were put out on the streets. I sometimes wonder why the poor areas and the areas stricken by crime are predominantly black. Many, I suspect, are the descendants of the slaves that were suddenly homeless. Unfortunately, poverty tends to be passed from one generation to the next. Is there a correlation? I think so.

    One thing that I want to make sure to touch upon is the lack of awareness of the black Confederate Soldiers. There were many blacks that fought beside the whites. They were not forced to do so either; this was their home too. Please take the time to research this as it is very interesting.

    I am not ignorant, I am not inbred. I am educated, a proud American and a proud Southern citizen. I am not willing to sacrifice my pride and the honor of my ancestors in the name of “political correctness.” Do not deny my (or others of any belief, ethnicity, or religion) the inalienatable right to celebrate our respective heritages.

    Judge me only when you completely understand me.

  15. Laura says:

    um? is this serious?! i hope Obama wins and people suporting this can eat this bikini confederate flag ! =]

  16. bobbo says:

    #74–Sylvia==you have your view of history and others have theirs. Are you of the position that the Civil War had NOTHING to do with slavery?

    You say you are educated so I will assume you admit the CW did have something to do with slavery.

    That being the case, why do you demand others ignore that history so that you can celebrate only a part of all the various issues that were at play?

    Meeting people who want to justify and even re-fight the CW makes me appreciate what the challenges in the Middle East must be and the hope for resolution is quite remote for any time soon?

  17. Alisa says:

    The civil war wasn’t about slavery. Abe Lincoln wanted to repatriate the Blacks to Africa. He was determined to do it. I believe he was assassinated because without the Blacks there would be no excuse for war. The Blacks were used as an excuse for the war but the war wasn’t about slavery. It was about enslaving everyone. Without the Blacks we wouldn’t be enslaved today, because it is Congress’ laws that gave Blacks equal rights, and when you have equal rights, it applies to everyone, not just Blacks. The goal of the civil war was to enslave everyone.
    No one has natural rights anymore because they were legislated away by Congress under the guise of giving Blacks civil rights.

  18. jabo says:

    Maybe you foreigners that don’t like the Confederate Flag should leave Dixie and go back to the US.

  19. Amathaon says:

    Bobbo, Hello It has been a while. If you reread Sylvias comment she has already addressed the two issues you bring up. 1. She has recognized that Slavery became an issue in the war. But what I believe she is saying is that it became an issue because of Lincoln, after the war was going on as a strategic move. It should of been just a footnote in the war instead of (as most people today think) that it was what the war was fought over. (Thanks to yankee textbooks in the schools) As as far as the war Having anything to do with slavery, Here is something to think about. Only 5% of southern households owned slaves. Of the confederate soldiers only about 1% of the fighting men owned slaves. I can only guess that of the 1% a very small part of that (If any) viewed slavery as their motivation for fighting. To think that so many men would suffer so much and even put their lives on the line so that the minority (Rich folk) could own slaves is absurd. So the only logical conclusion is that to us here in the south slavery wasnt an issue. We were fighting for our independence from a tyrannical government. and remember that the battle flag is the flag of the soldier.
    2. She is not demanding that others ignore their history. If you read her last paragraph. it says. “Do not deny my (or others of any belief, ethnicity, or religion) the inalienable right to celebrate our respective heritages.” What she is saying here is everyone should be proud of their heritage. Acceptance is the word not tolerance. to say it simply, live and let live.

    Sylvia, your comment was very well worded. I can tell you have done your research and know what you are talking about. Have you ever thought of joining the United Daughters of the Confederacy? You say you are from Tennessee. if you dont mind me asking, what part? I am also from TN.

    With much respect to the two of you, Amathaon

  20. bobbo says:

    Yes, its been awhile. I did happen to bookmark this thread and checked it before a delete. Guess I’ll have to keep it for awhile.

    History is complex, and the Civil War had many causes–most of them relating to the issue of slavery.

    Even if that were not true, that is how the CW is seen today. Analogy==WW2 was not fought to protect the Jews and other minority groups. It was fought to return land to their original status quo ante the war. Still, raising the Nazi Flag is insulting to all because of what became known (mostly) only at the end of the war and again was never fought on that issue.

    In the worst case, the CW and its flag is the same. The CW has become to be known as the war that liberated the slaves. The analogy is not needed, but it is very close.

    #74–Sylvia==you say: “Do not deny my (or others of any belief, ethnicity, or religion) the inalienatable right to celebrate our respective heritages.” /// Its very silly to “celebrate your heritage” when it is such a direct affront to so many people today. What is it about this “heritage” that justifies fanning the flames of hurtful memories and images today? You are not some tribal arab camel herder with nothing else to value. Value the USA Today==not the Southern Slave Plantations of generations ago.

    #79–Amathaon==what is this “tyranny” you speak of? To me it was whether or not Texas and the new states would be admitted slave or free? And the south saw its “interests” (their slave based economy and yes taxes) becoming a minority representation in Congress.

    So–a house divided cannot stand. America could not continue half free and half slave. Get Real.

    So–under the BEST case, slavery was part of the cause of the war and was a part of the waging of the war. When your best case admits of the validity of blacks today looking askance at these flag issues, only a self interest I don’t relate to can argue for the continued offense to be given.

    Arguing about history is rather lame when the issues can be fully set to rest under todays issues. Let not the dead hand of history continue to snuff out the flame of civil accord and mutual recognition of progress made.

    You two can do better.

  21. Amathaon says:

    Bobbo, There were several causes in the war for southern independence. Like I have already said, slavery became an issue but not the focus. If this was the case we had no reason to leave in the first place. Multiple times Lincoln guaranteed the institution of slavery would not be interfered with.
    Lincoln declared in his first inaugural address, “I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution—which amendment, however, I have not seen—has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”
    He also lied about this amendment. He says, “…Of which I have not seen.” He was one of the authors of this amendment and had congress rush it through before his inauguration.
    I know that I have already shared this quote but I believe it bears repeating. Lincoln stated “If I could preserve the Union by freeing all the slaves, I would do it. If I could preserve the Union by freeing no slaves, I would keep them all in bondage. If I could preserve the Union by freeing some and leaving others enslaved, I would do that.”
    Lets play devils advocate for a minute and just say the war was about slavery. Even if this were so, we are talking about the battle flag here. Remember the battle flag is the flag of the soldier so, you must ask yourself what was the southern soldier fighting for? This is what the battle flag would represent. In today’s time the battle flag is a declaration of our blood ties to the solider.
    I think I have found the difference in our thinking. You seem to suggest that it doesn’t matter what the truth is but rather how it is viewed today. This, my friend, is what we refer to as “political correctness.” I believe the truth does matter and not what most people today think. “I’d rather be historically accurate than politically correct.”
    As far as the Nazi flag being offensive today to a lot of people, I agree with you. I see nothing good about it but we are not connected to it in any way. We live in America and have no ties to it in any way (I am assuming you don’t). I have a coworker who is from Germany and her grandfather is a WWII veteran. She says her grandparents, to this day, celebrate Hitler’s birthday. I don’t understand why someone would do this, but then again, I wouldn’t. I am disconnected from any understanding of their side (their version of WWII). I don’t feel that I have a right to point my finger at them (Germans) and tell them they can’t do this because of my ignorance on the topic, especially when it is in Germany.

  22. Amathaon says:

    This shift towards national supremacy, and imperial glory is the “tyranny” that I speak of and that my ancestors fought against. If you will, they were fighting in DEFENSE of the U.S. constitution. Want proof? Compare the U.S. constitution and the C.S. constitution; they are almost identical. The difference is that to us it was the highest law of the land, as it was meant to be in the first place when the founding fathers drafted it. A house divided cannot stand, absolutely. That’s why we left the Union. That is real.
    As far as Blacks today having a problem with the flag, it has been my personal experience that most blacks that I know don’t have a problem with it; some I know even embrace it as a part of their heritage as I do. It is (mostly) politically correct white folk and Yankees that only know about the war from High School history books (Yankee written) that take offense.
    Taking a defense of true history is never lame; it is justified and needed. As a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, it is my duty to educate where needed. For me to ignore history would be for me to spit in the face of those that come before me.
    The following is the charge to the S.C.V. from Stephen D. Lee made in 1896, “To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we will commit the vindication of the cause for which we fought. To your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldiers good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles which he loved, and which you love also, and those ideals which made him glorious, and which you also cherish. It is your duty to see that the true history of the south is presented to future generations.”
    I love the U.S. today; it is by far the best country on the planet. However, with military presence in 150 countries, taxation being at least 50% of all national income, and the progression of abolition of civil liberties happening more and more every day. This is not my vision of where we should be, and it wasn’t the vision of our founding fathers either. This is what the confederate soldier was fighting against, government bureaucrats lording over us and having the power to do so.
    Just because you have been taught something and believed it to be so your whole life does not make it so. Please look up some of these examples I have given to you and do some research of your own; do it with an open mind. It is you who can do better.

    Amathaon

  23. bobbo says:

    Amathaon==I already affirmed that “arguing history” is an irrelevant enterprise. We could take a current issue like the cause of the credit industry crises and not agree on many issues WHILE they play out before us. It becomes then just rhetoric to argue what “Lincoln really meant.”

    Here’s some rhetoric==Lincoln was being a politician doing everything he could do to avoid a war, including lie. Or he could try to avoid a war by telling the truth thusly: “With a war becoming more likely, I don’t care about slavery. So, lets let the new states be admitted free to slowly restrict the power of the South until we can free the slaves and greatly reduce the threat/fear of seccession.”

    There are just too many ways to spin whatever isolated factoids you think are important.

    You say: “This, my friend, is what we refer to as “political correctness.” I believe the truth does matter and not what most people today think. “I’d rather be historically accurate than politically correct.” No, its not pc–its history. History is what the people considering the issue think it is, not what some very small minority want to say “the truth” is. You can be historically accurate about facts that mean little. What, when, where Lincoln said something, yes. What he meant by it, how conflicted he was, what he was balancing, what is short/term vs long terms goals were is NOT subject to a truth process.

    You so utterly miss the point about the flag that I ordinarily would think you did it on purpose, but you seem sincere. You continue to want to value the truth of history as argued by some 150 years ago rather than value the truth of history as understood today. Again, not PC, but actually History.

    Likewise, I don’t have a set response to people who want to argue “honor.” It always reminds me of a Marxs Brothers routine, and another one in “Start the Revolution Without Me.” Its just silly and again it comes down to a lifetime of becoming who we are not to be overturned by a cogent argument.

  24. bobbo says:

    There is NOTHING to be proud of, or to find honor in, wanting to be free yourself to own slaves. There is a rank hypocrisy in that that is unsustainable by rational people.

    And you either see the truth in that analysis, or you disagree. All other arguments are smoke and mirrors. You may honestly believe in the smoke and mirrors, but your vision and insight remain obscured.

    Heres two historical facts: Before the CW, Blacks were slaves. After the CW, still took another 120 years to gain them their freedom.

    Many blacks and whites today view the institution of slavery as an abomination. All things associated with it are too, be it flag, battleflag, Dixie, or whatever else including in the future, becomes associated with it.

    BTW, I note you express yourself much more fluently than I do. Damn you Southern writers! I will assume (regardless of the truth) that you wrote and rewrote, whereas I am just blowing off steam on first draft.

    I wonder what would happen to your sensitivities and appreciation if you were wisked back in time and made a black cotton picker in 1859. How understanding of honor would you be then?

    Yes, everyone of else deserves our specially designed hell, and its always what we wish for.

  25. bobbo says:

    and its always what we wish for===with a twist.

  26. NorthernResponse says:

    Hmmm, let’s see now… there are some people wanting to fly a flag in a part of the country they live in. Some people living no where near there don’t want them to fly that flag. Holy shit people!!!!

    The flag is from an era America wants to forget about. Unfortunately there are descendants of the people who died in a war that occurred back then. They want to honor those warriors the same as America as a whole wants to honor those that fall in battle today. So let them.

    Since the Civil War others have tried to use the Confederate flag to represent their cause. That doesn’t change what the original flag was meant to represent. You still salute the Stars and Stripes don’t you? That flag has been tarnished by others too, but it still stands for what it was first supposed to stand for.

    It appears some people don’t know what the south is all about, thus they have a fear of the unknown. History shows that instead of getting to know people that are different, we lash out at them. Sounds like the same thing is going on here. If you want to bring history into how we are supposed to feel about our ancestors and whether we should honor their memory or not, then maybe we should all go back across the pond.

  27. Amathaon says:

    Bobbo:
    I agree with 98% of what you said in your last comment, and we have already established that the other 2% we just have different views on that are really are not worth arguing about.

    I will have to say this…truth = truth, and the truth will never change. Sometimes the truth may get lost due to the passage of time or by intentional manipulation of the facts, but it does not change. When you say “There is NOTHING to be proud of, or to find honor in, wanting to be free yourself to own slaves. There is a rank hypocrisy in that that is unsustainable by rational people.” I agree with you 100%. If that is someone’s motive for wanting to free themselves, there is nothing to be proud of there.
    As far as me writing more fluent than you, I don’t see it. When we first started corresponding on here I thought you were a child, but you quickly made me aware that I was dealing with a person of exceptional intelligence. And I did take my time when I wrote the last comment, mostly due to spelling; I suck at spelling due to my southern accent. I keep using the wrong vowels. I posted it 3 times over 3 days before it went through. I thought it was too long, but I think it was because I had a link to a “You Tube” video that had one of my S.C.V. brothers that is black talking about what the Battle flag means to him. I took it out, and split it up, and then it went through.
    I think that (at least for the part that matters) we are have met common ground.

    NorthernResponse:
    Thanks for your acceptance,
    Amen Brother.

    Amathaon

  28. bobbo says:

    Amathaon: You say: “As far as me writing more fluent than you” /// Of course you know you should use the adverb “fluently” but I think I still get your meaning thru your miasma of malapropisms.

    Since we are off topic and reviewing our performances, I was surprised you were so reasonable after my initial foul mouthed response. You picked the few corn kernels in my scatology and gained points for sticking to the topic.

    Well, I guess the original disagreement remains at full mast? Nice Olberman rant tonight on Hannity being bested on his guilt by association technique regarding Obama. “Framing” an argument is a powerful technique. We can still disagree on whether CW flags should be honored, and what they might be honoring, but “as a debating technique” when you FRAME an argument by going back 150 years and wrenching 3-4-5 statements in isolation that “seem” consistent with your point, I think you have seriously damaged your position by its framing.

    Its very simple: should anyone do anything TODAY that very much upsets a large minority of people TODAY because of some interpretation of what attitudes were YESTERDAY?

    And very simply, the answer is “no.” TODAY, you sound like an ignorant bigot. Or maybe you are just highly isolated and surrounded by like minded isolated people? Isolation would be another Framing device.

    The truth. When the issue is complex, layered, interactive and contended, the truth will be impossible to determine. The frame remains a pretty solid derivative that is easy to spot.

    How many people have to be upset about an issue before you recognize the truth they wish to share?

  29. Amathaon says:

    Bobbo,
    With many southern towns having a confederate monument in the center of the square, state parks throughout the south being named in honor of confederate heroes, state capitals throughout the south having statues of southern patriots and statesmen, peoples thumbs up as I drive by with my flags a flyin’ and even other peoples comments on this page. In years of having flags on every vehicle I own at my house, or on my person, there has only been one negative comment made to me along with hundreds of positive ones. I’m sure that it would be different if I was in the north, but I’m not. I don’t know these people. They are not in my close circle of friends. So as you can see this is too widespread for the idea of “framing” by surrounding myself with other “isolated people” to be the case here. By the way this is what Miriam-Webster’s dictionary has to say about what politically correct means:

    politically correct
    Function:
    adjective
    Date:
    1936
    : conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated
    — political correctness noun

    Does this not sound like what you are doing?
    I almost can’t believe that you suggest that history can be changed with time because someone started saying that it was something it wasn’t. If this were the case I could be involved in an automobile accident that was entirely my fault, go to court, lie about it and say that it was the other guy’s fault, convince other people I wasn’t lying, and now it becomes the truth because of my lie and others believed me. This is just a ridiculous way of rationalizing. I will say it again, history is already set. It cannot be changed no mater who assigns what to it, now or in the future. If in ten yrs. If the idea that the U.S. flag was a racist symbol because of its involvement with slavery (which was far more than any flag of the confederacy) and people were demanding that it be stricken from all public view, what would you do? Would you furl you flag, go with the flow, and demand that others do it also, or would you take a stand for what you know to be right?
    I would like to place a disclaimer right about now. I feel that by setting the history aside I will be wondering away from the true discussion of this article because I feel as though that is the root of the argument. But just for the sake of this conversation, here goes.
    The confederate battle flag in today’s terms represents me, and other proud southern folk. It is dear to our hearts as the battle flag is the link that ties us to our ancestors. I know that you do not understand this, but it is important to us.
    I am for equality for EVERYONE. One of the great things about this great country of ours is the diversity. We are lucky enough to see many different cultures so close to our homes. If you only take the time to get to know others and their cultures through their celebrations, holidays, customs ect…. Even if it is not a part of your own culture it can do noting but enrich your life. There will always be something that will offend someone else. Christmas trees, Star of David, religion, music, languages, politics, FLAGS, and the list goes on and on. Do you suggest that we rid our country of all these things and have everyone look the same, act the same, think the same, basically a homogenous society. That would be a bland place to live. You said that I look like an “Ignorant bigot”, Take a closer look at how you might look. If you take from one to give to another can you not see how wrong this is. If you do this you have equated yourself with others that promote hate just because they can and for no good reason (KKK for example) I guess that it is human nature to hate someone just because you don’t understand him. WHY CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???!!! A lot of folks would call what I am talking about as “tolerance”. I don’t like this word because it suggests that you just tolerate others and their ways. I like the term “acceptance” because I think this suggest that you not only are ok with others that are different than you but you have the opportunity to get to know and understand them.
    What I suggest is that you do your thing, let others do their thing, don’t interfere with them and maybe even partake with them. If everyone could live like this, things would be a lot better.
    Diversity with exception is discrimination. Don’t discriminate.

    With much respect, Amathaon

  30. bobbo says:

    #90–Amathaon==we have each made our arguments twice. Can progress be made or have we reached impasse?

    I thought about two things in the meantime. Was I being P/C? Lots of conformity with the definition, some distinctions. I think PC has an element of untruthfulness and enforced conformity about it, as in “Don’t say the truth because it would be hurtful.” In general, I would advocate the truth first, consideration for other peoples “feelings” second. Is the rejection of hate speech any different than the request for PC speech? If the truth is subject to various interpretations, would not the label of PC also vary accordingly? Not our central dispute, so I’ll let it sit.

    I also thought about my use of “ignorant bigot.” Is it the truth, or am I failing to be PC? And that analysis goes by way of my first paragraph although I did think of my own ignorant and bigoted thoughts in the past on other unrelated subjects. “Acting Like/talking like/being seen as an ignorant bigot is awfully close to actually BEING an ignorant bigot. If the heart is pure, and the mind works, information should clear the condition? This issue is much closer to our dispute, but I will let this one lie as well.

    I will say that “an area of isolation” can be quite large==like the “South.” Or the East and West Coasts–bifurcated and split but together isolated in their elitism? Most people isolate themselves to like thinking people regardless of the larger environment so geographic delineation is likely not relevant.

    I often (perhaps to often or too easily) use strong language to gain attention to a matter.

    How does a person form an opinion and how do they change it? What do you gain or lose by any opinion. How often are you challenged by any given opinion? Lots of variables to opinions we come to have, reasons to keep the opinions, reasons to change.

    The role of slavery in the CW can be debated for various motives for various effects. Identifying any position as “the truth” and others as “PC” is intellectually weak. Its an argument used only to support a decision reached, not one to analyse the decision made.

    Some think wearing hoods with white robes or wearing swastikas should be seen ONLY as a celebration of their caucasian heritage. I’m sure some people honestly think only that. Most people make other additional associations.

    The more associations you recognize as part of your decision making, the more likely you will be less focused on honor and pride which primarily requires the trimming of broader associations.

    So, we have at least two ways to approach these culturally loaded issues and many others: broad and narrow.

    One or the other is not necessarily right or wrong, but I am of the opinion that most matters benefit from the broadest appreciation that can be brought to bear.

    Happy Columbus Weekend.


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