A procession of devils, ghosts and zombies through the historic Spanish city of Toledo has been branded blasphemous by the Catholic Church.
Actors from the Morboria theatre company performed a representation inspired by the medieval Dance of Death in Toledo’s streets provoking an angry reaction from the cathedral pulpit.
“We ask forgiveness for those who insulted the body of Christ,” said Archbishop Antonio Canizares, quoted in newspaper El Pais.
He told worshippers the procession, which also included a Virgin Mary and a Saint Peter, made a mockery of the Catholic celebration of Corpus Christi…
Toledo retains a reputation as one of the most conservative towns in Spain. It was once home to a permanent office of the Spanish Inquisition, which had more painful methods of dealing with blasphemy than those available to Canizares.
Who do you trust with your freedom? Mel Brooks or the Archbishop?
Of course it’s blasphemous, they’re not in church.
Springtime
for Hitler… and Germany….
(does THAT answer your question, Eidard?)
J/P=?
Of all the strange crimes that humanity has legislated out of nothing, blasphemy is the most amazing – with obscenity and indecent exposure fighting it out for second and third place. [Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long]
Other great quotes from Heinlein regarding religion.
May the Swartz be with you … always.
&%(#%&*
Eideard….
frakking spellcheck…
J/P=?
Now if they had zombie jesus eating bunny brains that I can see as bad. But this? All it does is alienate the church farther away from the general public
They would have been OK if they had only donated money.
>>Other great quotes from Heinlein
>>regarding religion.
Hey, religious philosophy from a science fiction writer. Why does that sound familiar? (Note to self: put Tom Cruise and/or John Travolta on speed dial). HAW!
Who do you trust with your freedom? Mel Brooks or the Archbishop? Monty Python! Why? Cause no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
I’m amused by those who hate religion because it’s so ‘stupid’ and look to prove that their ‘intellectual opinion’ is valid by quoting books as though their quoting a book that someone *else* wrote proves that they’re clever.
Come on, try some original thinking you free thinkers!
Wait a minute though, quoting a text with the expectation of getting your listeners to stop thinking in any critical way against what you believe? That sounds like something religious people do. I suspect that that there are some closet theists around these parts.
What we are seeing is the death of a religion. Like the pagan religions that the christians murdered in the past, their own religion is slowly dying, and like any great and powerful beast, it is throwing a massive tantrum, a great railing against its own death that includes a mad rush to try to survive by embracing the extreme and trying to force its life to return.
We see it all over the world, priests and pastors turning to extreme rhetoric as they see the world turning against their oppressive message, a message that has more often than not served to denigrate humanity, keep it low rather than uplift it, because the power of the church had to be maintained.
Eventually the world will just return to true religion of humanity, one based on locality, on small familial and community groups worshiping or honoring their gods, not monolithic churches that seek to control it through fear and intimidation and feeding on the fears and superstitions of its patrons.
The monotheistic religions are an experiment in insanity that will soon fade. Perhaps not in my lifetime, but in the blink of en eye in divine terms.
#3 Be careful using Sci-Fi writers for your religious dogma, positive or negative. You can end up with Scientology.
Iskios F.T.W!
#10 – I’m amused by those who hate religion because it’s so ’stupid’
Who are “those?”
Can you imagine the sheer weight of the things we’d have to hate if “stupid” were the criteria?
I oppose most religions because most religions oppose me. Anti-religious sentiment is a reaction to religion and not something born in a vacuum. The God Gang is entirely culpable in the ire they draw and their persecution complex is 100% manufactured.
Continuously judge me, tell me what a bad person I am and tell about this alleged Hell I am to be damn to for eternity… See how long I stay friendly.
And that doesn’t even begin to cover the old-fashioned book burnings, the attacks on school science and proactive sex ed courses, the assault on music, movies, games and culture, the conspicuous silence after lynchings occur in Jesus’s name or that all time favorite of kids everywhere, the Crusades…
Being “stupid” might be enough for some, but I require malice to hate… and malice is plentiful in most churches.
I like Unitarians and Mister Mustard. Everyone else, I am suspicious of.
#8: if you’ll read Heinlein’s quotes at the link, you’ll see that he was very cynical about religion in general, seeing it as self-contradictory, but also as a great profit center.
“God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent – it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills.” [Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long]
I’m suffering from blasphemy overload these days. I think I’d better cancel my cable TV service, because that’s where I see most of the blasphemy. Maybe next-gen televisions will have a built-in blasphemy-blocking chip for those of us who want to keep our minds pure.
Down with blasphemy, up with purity.
>>if you’ll read Heinlein’s quotes at the link
I did read his quotes. But who gives a fuck what a sci-fi writer thinks about religion? Is that any better than quoting from L. Ron Hubbard?
#8 – Mister Mustard,
>>Other great quotes from Heinlein
>>regarding religion.
Hey, religious philosophy from a science fiction writer. Why does that sound familiar? (Note to self: put Tom Cruise and/or John Travolta on speed dial). HAW!
Hey, if someone says something that makes sense to me, I can be convinced. Why care about area of expertise on this? It’s not like I’m getting my climate change science from
Crightona fiction author.I also like a lot of what George Carlin says about religion. It just makes sense. I don’t have to ignore the man because he’s a comedian.
Hell, you get your religious advice from someone who passes a charity plate to pay his/her own salary, rather than actually get and hold a job. Is that better?
Ahh, Scottie. A faith-based approach to what you’re going to swallow and what you’re not, when it comes to celebrities babbling about religion. So devout!
I like what George Carlin says about religion too. Not because I necessarily believe it, but it’s entertaining, and it makes one think. That’s not something that’s well-accepted in the faith-based community; faithers have made up their minds, and nothing anybody says will influence what they think.
Some of us more free-thinking sorts, though, process what all sources have to offer, and are constantly considering what our opinions are.
As to my minister and her job, she works her ass off (Habitat for Humanity, soup kitchen duty, prison outreach, homeless shelter, etc., etc.). It’s just that there’s no money in those industries, so passing the collection plate is required. Even so, I doubt she’s getting rich off the weekly offerings.
As to Chrichton and his babbling, pffft. Another celebrity with verbal diarrhea.
Hey, how do you do that strike-out thing?
[Like this: <strike>text</strike> – ed.]
I don’t hate religion because it’s stupid. It IS stupid, but that is beside the point. I hate religion because it is evil and hurts people in the pocket book, and in many cases, physically.
I hate religion because it operates a business tax free, which is not fair to the rest of us.
I hate religion because it oppresses people.
I hate religion because each one of them think their beliefs are the only right one.
I hate religion because it uses up valuable resources.
I hate religion because the stores all close early (or don’t open at all) on Sunday. It makes my life inconvenient.
I hate religion in the Springtime.
I hate religion in the Fall.
I hate religion in the winter when it drizzles.
I hate religion in the summer when it sizzles.
Great music though!
But it IS stupid.
and all of you seem to forget the greatest in sci-fi writings……… the bible, koran, etc….
#19 – Mr. Mustard,
I fail to see what’s faith based about reading a book and recognizing it for the self-contradictory piece of garbage that it is, which is mostly what Heinlein did. Though, he also looked at the self-contradictory actions of the religious leaders.
Further, it is not faith based to equally apply standards of evidence across the board.
This is a point you continually miss. I understand that your beliefs are far more reasonable than most. However, I fail to see why or how you choose what items for which there are zero data points you would give credit to.
You have stated that you believe based on personal experience. That may be another matter. But, why deride those of us who have no such personal experience for recognizing that there is no data on which to base any credibility for an hypothesis?
You do not seem to deride me for my non-belief in fire-breathing dragons. Why do you do so for my non-belief in god? How are these different?
What would your beliefs be without your personal experience? What would your beliefs be even with your own personal experience if you also had a personal experience of just how horrifically bad eyewitness testimony really is?
As for the strike-out, it’s the HTML strike tag. So, let’s see if this works. If so, it should look like what I typed. If not, see the paragraph below.
<strike>Crighton</strike>
In case that doesn’t work, type less-than-sign strike greater-than-sign. Then type the word(s) and follow with less-than-sign forward-slash strike greater-than-sign.
Enjoy.
#21 – admfubar,
and all of you seem to forget the greatest in sci-fi writings……… the bible, koran, etc….
That’s only if you lump fantasy with science fiction. True science fiction begins with a scientific hypothesis being researched by current scientists and extrapolates what may be if it turns out true. Strings, wormholes, etc. are all valid points from which to begin real science fiction. Star Wars, on the other hand, falls into the category of fantasy because of its use of unexplained magic. So, even though set in space as a sort of Space Opera, it is still solidly in the realm of fantasy.
The Bible (book 1 & the sequel), Quran, etc. are all fantasy because there are no valid science hypotheses behind them.
Other than that, I think we’re in agreement on the real point of your post.
>>But, why deride those of us who have no
>>such personal experience
Scottie, I dare you…I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU to provide evidence where I’ve derided you for your beliefs (other than the belief that your belief is not really a belief)!!
If you choose to worship God, or the FSM, or Charlize Theron, or nothing at all, it’s all the same to me. To quote from that great philosopher Eminem, I just don’t give a fuck.
>>What would your beliefs be even with your own
>>personal experience if you also had a personal
>>experience of just how horrifically bad
>>eyewitness testimony really is?
Not sure what you’re getting at here, compadre. If you mean sombody ELSE’S eyewitness testimony, I might give a plugged nickel for that. The eyewitness testimony of billions of people, that’s worth a little more. And my OWN eyewitness testimony (at least as far as what I’m going to believe) – that’s priceless.
When I hear nonsense like “God said to me, George, go invade Iraq”, that shit goes into the same Dumpster(R) with L. Ron Hubbard’s thetans, engrams, and extraterrestrial dictatorships.
My own spiritual experiences do not go into that same Dumpster(R), at least not regarding what I choose to believe and disbelieve.
testing testing, 1, 2, 3#24 – Mister Mustard,
>>But, why deride those of us who have no
>>such personal experience
Scottie, I dare you…I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU to provide evidence where I’ve derided you for your beliefs (other than the belief that your belief is not really a belief)!!
And this is exactly what I find derisive. And you are also evasive as well. I double dog dare you to tell me when you have ever answered the question of why believing there are no gods is different than believing there are no fire breathing dragons.
Go ahead. Find that thread. I’ll wait.
And then, when you get back, let me know why you feel the need to assert that not believing in god is a belief while not believing in fire breathing dragons is not.
It’s all about consistency.
If you’re consistent on the point, then you are not a hypocrite. However, if you think that not believing in god is a belief but not believing in fire breathing dragons is not, then I brand you a hypocrite.
As for the second point about eyewitness testimony, if I could not back up an extraordinary claim of my own personal experience, whether it was abduction by aliens, being roasted by fire breathing dragons, or being spoken to by some old desert war god, I would treat them the same.
I would look for real hard evidence, other than the crap from my brain. If I found none, I would assume that I had been deluded at the time. Perhaps I was dehydrated from my wanderings in the desert. Perhaps I was feverish from some virus. A mind is not a really reliable source of hard data.
A mind is a terrible thing. Personal experience may be enough for ordinary situations. For extraordinary claims, I need reliable data.
You say you saw a blue buick speeding by? Probably, you did. I’m willing to take that at face value, if no one’s life is on the line over it. You say you saw the Loch Ness monster? Not so much. If I saw the Loch Ness monster for myself? I’d want a good clear photo from my camera.
As for what a billion people say? Eat shit. A billion flies can’t all be wrong.
>>question of why believing there are no gods is
>>different than believing there are no fire
>>breathing dragons.
I have no experience with fire-breathing dragons. Maybe they exist, maybe they don’t. If many people whom I trusted said they had experienced fire-breathing dragons, I would at least entertain the possibility.
I DO have experience with God. Maybe it’s not good enough to make you a believer, but too bad. As you may have noticed, if you were paying attention, I’m not trying to convert you. Or anyone else, for that matter. I don’t need a camera, because God is not the Loch Ness monster. What I have experienced (and therefor what I believe) is good enough for me. I can’t be held responsible for wackos who abuse “religion”, any more than you can be held responsible for Atheist wackos like Pol Pot, Stalin, or Mao.
If there’s any derision occurring on dvorak dot org slash blog, I submit that it’s the Atheists’ unrelenting lampooning of people of faith. Go back and look at any one of the 200982340923425 “Xtian”-bashing threads that have appeared here over the past year.
>>Eat shit. A billion flies can’t all be wrong.
And those flies live long and prosper crawling around on shit. Humans (who are not flies), on the other hand, thrive in part on their spiritual lives. If you were a fly, you’d be crawling around on shit too.
#26 – Mr. Mustard,
And, I say to you again. Unless you assert that not believing in fire breathing dragons here on Earth is a belief then you must accept that not believing in god is not a belief either.
Be consistent either way.
Is adragonism a belief/religion to you? If you answer yes, I’ll consider this conversation over. If you answer no, then be prepared to go on indefinitely, as long as both of us have fingers with bones strong enough to type.
So, please answer yes or no. No more evasion. No more passive aggression.
Is adragonism a religion?
>>Is adragonism a belief/religion to you?
It’s a belief. Since it has nothing to do with God, I wouldn’t call it a religion, any more than “not believing in global warming” or “not believing planes crashed into the WTC”, or any other unsupported belief.
In my lexicon, a belief relating to the existence or nature of God(s) is a religion. Beliefs about the relative benefits of Linux vs. OS X, McDonald’s vs. Wendy’s, etc., do not qualify.
#28 – Mr. Mustard,
In my mind, religion requires a belief in the existence of something supernatural (fire-breathing dragons would qualify unless we actually find some, then they become natural) as well as a set of dogma and rituals. So, I would disagree with you on that.
However, I would call you consistent. I bet it is an interesting conversation when someone asks you your beliefs. You have to list every deity ever dreamed up, every mythical creature, all of the ordinary objects you see from day to day. Every abstract idea, both scientific or not, must be included in your list. All with little audio versions of checkboxes, some checked, some not.
That must be about the longest and most boring conversation in the world.
Personally, I find it easier to lump things. It shortens things a lot. I do not believe in the supernatural. That one statement conveys a lack of belief in all mythologies and mythical creatures. I believe that the extraordinary must be proven with lots of hard evidence. That explains all of my feelings about scientific theories and hypotheses, including that for which there is abundant evidence, like relativity and quantum mechanics, both of which are quite extraordinary and outside our daily experiences, as well as String Hypothesis, for which there is not nearly enough supporting evidence to say more than “sounds good; let’s see how it pans out” even after over 30 years of trying.
>>In my mind, religion requires a belief in
>>the existence of something supernatural
Well, I guess I’m just more liberal than you, Scottie. In my mind, all religion requires is a belief CONCERNING the existence of something supernatural. If Atheists wanted to congregate in an organized fashion, I’d afford them the same tax breaks and all the other perks of other religions.
>>However, I would call you consistent.
That’s all I can ask. Until (or unless) you have a spiritual awakening, I’m certainly not going to convince you of my viewpoint. And as you’ll have noticed, if you’ve been paying attention, I’ve never tried.