|
|
Unleashed: Unanswered 9/11 questions
The collapse of New York’s World Trade Centre on September 11, 2001 is arguably one of the most well documented events in human history. Less well documented is the controversy over why the buildings fell as they did.
At the time of writing, 357 architectural and engineering professionals have signed a petition which directly challenges the National Institute of Standards & Training’s official finding that the destruction of these massive buildings was caused solely by structural damage from the impact of jet airliners and the resulting fires.
[…]
Current research indicates that an incendiary (thermite) may have been used to sever the massive box columns of the towers, causing the buildings to plummet to the ground at close to free-fall speed.
[…]
“As no reports have come to light of any steel framed buildings collapsing due to fire, and as all steel framed buildings which had collapsed had done so due to explosive demolition, the logical way to have started the investigation of this surprising event would have been to question whether explosives had been used. This apparently did not occur.
William Rodriguez, an acknowledged hero of 9/11 who single-handedly rescued fifteen people from the North Tower, described a massive explosion in the basement which occurred before the first plane struck, pushing him upwards out of the seat of his chair.
The New York Fire Department’s oral histories project contains 118 witness statements which are strongly consistent with explosive demolition. Incredibly, none of this shocking testimony was included or acknowledged in any official investigation, including the 9/11 Commission.
If the towers were wired with explosives by terrorists prior to the planes, that would imply a lack of security on a massive scale that would be worth hiding. On the other hand, how do you hide that much work to rig buildings like that? If terrorists didn’t do it, why would the towers be rigged with explosives? Leaving aside the wacko’s government conspiracies, are other buildings routinely wired to blow to bring them straight down if something happens to prevent them falling onto other buildings? An interesting ‘protection’ scenario for the neighborhood that would be worth hiding for many reasons.
And then there’s this article from a few months ago with quotes from military experts like this one:
“A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible,” said Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret). With doctoral degrees in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Col. Bowman served as Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter.
“There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up,” continued Col. Bowman. “Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible. Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney.”
There’s a lot of chatter in the grapevine that a
false flag is planned for Texas this summer.
Funky stuff is coming down people. 9-11 was
just the opening scene to a very bad nightmare.
Roland Carnaby – Houston. His relationship with
the DC Madam. Both dead within a week of each oher. Rumors of something big coming to Houston?
Binary – it’s very binary. Only the NeoCon head knows what the left hand and the right are doing. War with Iran the common thread.
Nine Undersea heavily shielded communications cables buried under the sea ‘accidentally’ temporarily cut (and charged) three months ago.
All of Iran’s internet and long distance comms route over those nine FO cables.
Houston will get hot this summer, will be hotter in Iran, oh yeah.
Brothers, sisters, we don’t need this NeoCon thing
Brothers, sisters, we don’t need this NeoCon thing
Bush is proof you can elect, a Fascist God in motion
All this NeoCon stuff is not for you and me, dude
Time to get up off your ass and see there
is a war here
First they shocked and then we awed.
Then their fist was round our throat
and they kicked us to the ground, oh
Next stop’s Iran, Russia, and maybe China too
When you rise you’ll feel your power, we’ll have them on the run.
Brothers, sisters, we don’t need this NeoCon thing
Brothers, sisters, we don’t need this NeoCon thing
America’s a most fearful land – they have this NeoCon thing.
Can you hear that sound? I hear a bell. Can you hear that sound? Oh I hear freedom ring, yeah.
Brothers, sisters, we don’t need this NeoCon thing
Brothers, sisters, we don’t need this NeoCon thing
Clearly the Rathole Terrorists have already won.
356. Mark Quick.
Good, good. I think it could use some rhyme in it though. Everybody likes that. What do you say about:
Brothers, sisters, we don’t need this NeoCon thing
Brothers, sisters, we don’t do this NeoCon fling. …pause, 2,3… and then… , babe. To equal things out a bit.
Try that off the top and I’ll think about some of the other parts. But good. I’m not saying it’s not.
RBG
344 liberty mike
RBG-Seriously, did you read my post at #204?
Yep & just re-read it. You can have your own opinions, just not your own facts. I see it as the usual opinion fluff and irrelevant generalized non sequiturs seen in a lot of the rants above. No need to comment. Popular Mechanics is old news. There are more effective rebuts out there.
RBG
Never send a boy to do a man’s job.
Those at the top of the heap needs to start
getting nervous
# 352 RBG said:
“I said nothing of WTC7 and batteries. I showed, with cited evidence, the nature of one of the bright, molten flows out of one of the twin towers.”
I can see you’ve having major problems following simple trains of thought… First, I said back in #258, “…let’s return to the video at the top of the page.” Thence, in the next paragraph, “when it falls like a controlled demolition, spits out squibs like a controlled demo, creates pyroclastic flows just like a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION…” So this gives you a CLUE that we’re talking about WTC7, doesn’t it? Evidently not…
In # 270 you, RBG, quote “when it falls like a controlled demolition” and reply “Because “like” leaves no no trace of demolitions.” Sheesh… we’ll get back to that… Then you quote “creates pyroclastic flows just like a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION” and reply “And just “like” a room full of lead batteries that happen to be on the floor in question.”
Now my assumption was that you were on topic with the split screen video… but I see now that your rigid mind, confronted with a question it couldn’t even dare to contemplate, had already taken refuge in the twin towers. And from there you start spewing nonsense about batteries, whence I should have known that you don’t understand what a pyroclastic flow is… So now I’m in a situation of trying to explain a basic concept like the fundamental theory of algebra to someone who doesn’t know what an imaginary number is. In other words, there are several concepts crucial to this discussion that you clearly don’t understand. Moreover, you have so much invested in being always “right”, in being the “smart guy”, that you can’t conduct an honest discussion, and you don’t seem to have enough real-world experience to evaluate the government’s cover story and see that it’s riddled with flaws. In your frenzied efforts to present yourself as an “expert”, you clutch at “evidence” so flimsy that it’s patent pettifoggery to anyone with a modicum of common sense.
The suggestion that the molten metal that spilled from the tower’s corner is molten lead is totally absurd… the correlation of radiant light to temperature had already been studied extensively in the 19th century… in fact the data led, at the advent of the 20th, to Plank’s formulation of quantum theory. Physicists and metallurgists can assure you that the bright, flowing metal was neither aluminum or lead. So what does that leave BTW?
But what does that have to do with pyroclastic flow anyhow? We return to your statement “Because “like” leaves no no trace of demolitions.” Well, the meaning isn’t immediately clear, but you seem to be saying that the huge clouds of dust are not evidence of explosives… an imperious wave of your hand blows it all away. You don’t have to deal with it, or anything else in the video… you can just camp out here and cite bogus “facts” until all the “woo-woos” go away…
362 Empirical evidence
You were so irrelevantly over the map on that post, Ptolemy, Galileo, Newton, your girl friend, that I can see how one could easily scan “let’s return to the video at the top of the page” as meaning returning to the 9/11 subject at hand.
So now you have yet more evidence how easy it is to misinterpret as the woo industry is so wont to do.
And speaking of using Galileo’s telescope to reveal truth: Schiaparelli, Burton & Lowell all thought they were seeing canals on Mars, presumably made by little green men, which seems kind of appropriate.
I gave you a wiki link to show pyroclastic flow means anything hot and flowing. You might want to be more specific next time.
If you have a chunk of WTC7 with pyro holes drilled in or pyro residue, let me know. Else, this “demolition” left no trace.
I still shake my head in amazement, though, how you can completely pretend Twin tower debris didn’t hit WTC7; all the fire department eyewitnesses didn’t see a 20 story gash in it’s side; didn’t measure bulges in the building; didn’t predict it’s collapse; didn’t pull out all the other firemen prior to the collapse. Like this evidence wasn’t even there – all in favor of some smoke & dust you get to interpret any way you want.
But even more amazing is that the video above actually proves the opposite to your point. The demolition split screen shows crap flying explosively out the side & well away from the building. That’s nothing like WT7 which looks like, well what do you know, it looks like the powder that also covered New York shaken off the ledges in a little puff. That’s your evidence in comparison, huh?
RBG
9-11 was a coup against the American people- set-up by Americans who had the most to gain.
They are getting ready to to it again.
It is going to get HOT in Houston thi summer.
And it is going to get much HOTTER in Iran
They’ve sowed the wind.
Now they will reap the whirlwind.
It is time for us rise up and unleash Hell.
#355 bobbo said,
…I’m looking for some measure of “proof” of a competing theory rather than ignorance, questions, or side issues poking holes in less than a perfect “apparent causation.”
…
Hey, I followed a link and found this thread, and it was fun to join in for a while and make some comments… at this point I’m eager to get back to life’s other adventures. As for seeking objective “proof” of anything in what most of us are beginning to recognize as an entirely subjective experience… don’t look to me.
I also suggest not looking to RBG, Gawd or any other of the poseurs, sycophants, dilettantes and/or dupes who so adamantly shill for the “official” conspiracy theory. Use your own common sense and intuition and you’ll find the information that you seek. Oh yeah, there is this device called Occam’s razor… but be careful, it can cut both ways. If you’re going to learn to use it effectively, mayhap for practice you should try it on the video above… 🙂
Ciao, EE
#365–Empirical==so, no, you can’t do it.
I saw Jesse Ventura on Hannity and Combs. He is a truther. Says it doesn’t make sense that the steel uprights in the buildings would not have poked thru the wreckage and he thought the buildings falling at the rate of gravity was suspicious, then he added all the dust and dirt was excessive.
Course, he doesn’t have any proof or theories on any alternate theory==he just questions the apparent cause because of questions he can’t answer.
Is the truth subjective as you say? Sure, and thats where science and testing and expertise comes in to straighten these questions out.
Lets suppose that another 10 skyscrapers are flown into in the same manner and they all fall in the same manner. 10 more conspiracies, or is that the way skyscrapers fall?
#364 Tuxedo
Was that really you, Mahmoud Ahmadinutjob?
#365 Empirical evidence:
You can’t talk of “common sense” and Occam’s razor in the face of millions of people who watched a 767 weighing 280,000 lbs loaded with 10,000 gallons of fuel flying into a building at 500 miles per hour.
The common sense here is that this brought the building down… even if it didn’t.
Common sense and Occam’s Razor dictates you don’t need two outrageous and redundant missions – jets + demolition – to make a political statement where any one of those would suffice just fine.
And common sense tells you that anybody who has the skills & motivation to cover up such a fantastically complex multi-peopled, multi-level attack in their own backyard would have not even the slightest trouble having a few people drop WMDs into the Iraqi desert to justify an even more costly objective in Iraq.
But there is no common sense when it comes to anti-government conspiracies, as even bigger, continuing efforts to disprove the US moon-landings plainly demonstrates.
RBG
# 363 RBG said,
“If you have a chunk of WTC7 with pyro holes drilled in or pyro residue, let me know. Else, this “demolition” left no trace.”
http://www.3fingers.info/twin.html
EE,
You make several fundamental errors.
First, your name suggests that you use objective evidence. You don’t.
Second, you use sources that in turn use bogus information. Your “Three Fingers” link uses an un-sourced picture. In this day I think we all understand how easy it is to use a little help (Photoshop) to get your point across. Ordinary people were not allowed near the WTC site so this picture had to be taken by either a journalist or a NY City authorized photographer. It would be watermarked and cited if it was legit. It isn’t so it isn’t legit.
Third, you spend a lot of time rambling about everything BUT the subject at hand. And old saying, “If you can’t dazzle ’em with brilliance, baffle ’em with bullshit”.
*
There is little about WTC 7 simply because most emphasis has been used to examine WTC 1&2. To suggest that it just fell down and NOOO planes hit it is stupid. It was hit by falling debris AND the foundation was cracked by the WTC 1&2 collapse.
The twoofers claim the fires weren’t hot enough to “melt” steel, yet claim that there were molten puddles dripping from the building AND in the debris pile for weeks.
There was no inspection for Thermite as all the ingredients are quite common: sulfur, iron, and aluminum.
Next time you have a fire going outside, drop a flat object, suck as a block on it. You will notice that the air rushes out from under your block just as if there had been an explosion. Now repeat the experiment with a larger fire and a larger block. Gee, again air rushes out from under the block just as if someone had put little explosive charges there.
Your penchant for laughing at science backed arguments is amazing. You don’t rebut with any facts, twoofers generally don’t.
All are welcome at DU. Be forewarned though, fools are not lightly treated. Or tolerated.
#366 bobbo said, “Lets suppose that another 10 skyscrapers are flown into in the same manner and they all fall in the same manner. 10 more conspiracies, or is that the way skyscrapers fall?”
Damn, that’s brilliant bobbo!… and a lot of people think that all of you deniers are just patsies and stooges, incapable of original thought. But you showed ’em with that one… hell yeah, ten such planes into ten identical buildings and they all fall in an identical manner… damn straight, that cinches it… you DA MAN bobbo… but hey, uh… what if they don’t…?
Kinda seems iffy when you think about it… and it does seem impractical to recreate such massive structures… besides, where will you get the pilots? Oh, that’s right, pilotless drones are ubiquitous nowadays, so we wouldn’t really need people… Still, given the expense and all, suppose we just design a video game, using the WTC blueprints that were leaked to the press and employing the best modelling algorithms. Then we set up a contest to see who can bring down one of the towers with the fewest planes… that’ll be fun… and of course we’ll know when we have the software design exactly right when every virtual plane that impacts a virtual tower causes it to fall symmetrically through the path of greatest resistance at free fall speed. Oh, and the core columns have to fall in uniform 30′ lengths…
But yeah, great idea… By the way, have you figured out which way that razor cuts yet? I should mention, if you see a bunch of bloody stubs on your hand where there should be fingers, you’re holding the wrong end…
RBG,
I know you mean well, but I am still apprehensive about using un-sourced photos, or any un-sourced material for that matter, as a reference. While Photobucket might have a lot of pictures, we don’t know where they came from, who took them, are they original, their history, or even if they are from the WTC site. As you have pointed out, they could have a history that is completely foreign to the discussion.
Citing critical thinking is one thing, I enjoyed reading your link to thermate analysis (@911myths) but using just any material poses the danger that it could be tainted.
You have provided some very good links and persuasive arguments. I’ve picked up a lot of information I didn’t know already. I appreciate the hard work you have put into this. You should take a bow, you deserve it.
Empirical E, usually RBG and I are on opposing sides of many arguments. Not all, but many.
EE,
So do you have any information to bring to the party or is all your bullshit just confined to denigrating others?
Here is an easy read for you, written by a retired Deputy Fire Chief of NY City. He adds some insight to what happened and why.
http://vincentdunn.com/wtc.html
No conspiracy, just simple mechanical physics.
He doesn’t discuss the WTC 7 simply because it fell because of being struck with debris and had a broken foundation. A major support was damaged and the fires helped further contribute to other weakening of supports.
It just occurred to me that the twoofers are comparing this to a controlled demolition for good reason. A controlled demolition wants to bring a tall building down quickly in as small area as possible and causing as little damage to surrounding structures as possible. The aim therefore is to bring the building down into its own footprint. Another term instead of, or to replace, controlled demolition would be to call it a controlled catastrophe. The same as landing an airplane is a controlled crash.
The problem is the WTC collapses didn’t fall into their footprints. Their debris was over a large area. The catastrophe was NOT very controlled.
So if you can keep your fire under control it is a BBQ. If you don’t, it is a house fire.
372 Agreed on the photos. I took the lazy way and assumed since these photos appear to be the WTC facade, they were freely available somewhere else more official. But there is a chnce they could be a hoax. So now, arg, I’m going to have to see if I can find them. Not that it really mattered to see them after the explanation of why rescue, demolition & forensics will cut at 45 degrees possibly even using thermite torches.
RBG
# 371 RBG said
“…the 45 degree cut was made after the collapse by a torch as part of the demolition and excavation efforts. How else would you remove a column of steel anchored a few floors down to a foundation? You would simply cut it apart in manageable sections. The reason it is cut at a 45 angle is two-fold; It reflects the heat from the cutting flame away from the operator, and it creates a strategic point of separation, so that the column can fall towards a certain direction (usually in a safe and predictable manner).”
Hey, in #369 Mr. Gawd Almighty himself said that these photos are FAKED! Can’t you guys get your stories straight? You don’t doubt Gawd’s word do you? /sarc.
I’m going to give you the benefit of doubt here because it seems as though naivety and lack of experience are probably your reasons for the post above, not a deliberate decision to promulgate outright lies…
First, let us assume that the column with the diagonal cut in fact stood taller after the collapse, and has been cut by a torch in the course of the cleanup. “…the 45 degree cut… creates a strategic point of separation, so that the column can fall towards a certain direction (usually in a safe and predictable manner)” As if demolition on such a crowded disaster site is like falling timber in the woods… NOT! The standard procedure is to secure the part that is to be cut off by rigging it to a crane and also, if necessary, tying lines to it that can be used for control.
At the point when the rigging is drawn near taut and everyone involved is certain it’s safe to proceed, the cutting commences. It will be, in the absence of obstructions, along the line of shortest distance: this is for efficiency, a concept that skilled workers and successful contractors well understand.
And now we’re here: “The reason it is cut at a 45 angle is two-fold; It reflects the heat from the cutting flame away from the operator…” Do you even know what you’re saying… can you not perceive that this “reasoning” is specious, a non sequitor? Perhaps it can made clear to you.
An ironworker stands at the wide face of an upright steel beam and squeezes a lever on the handle of his torch. With the flow of oxygen, the flame intensifies and narrows to a fine point. He holds it to the beam, and after a few moments, the acetylene’s heat is sufficient to cause the iron itself to oxidize; that is, it begins to burn. The evidence of iron burning is typically a wide shower of hot sparks. A worker naturally prefers that this stinging shower does not reflect directly back at him, so what does he do? Rather than squaring off to the beam, HE TURNS TO AN ANGLE, TYPICALLY ABOUT A 45, SO THAT THE SPARKS FLOW AWAY!
Get it? It has nothing at all to do with the line of the cut on the metal… that doesn’t affect the direction of the flow of the sparks. Hence, you cite but one valid reason for the angle of the cut: to influence its direction of fall. But it will not be allowed to fall freely in the cleanup phase… moreover, there is no evidence in that photo that cleanup has even begun. It doesn’t make sense that an ironworker would have fought his way into that tangle of crap to cut a column anyway… So what does that logically leave as a reason for the diagonal cut on top of this column?
Can’t answer? Run off to find more specious arguments to cut and paste. Remember your goal:
“Generate masses of criticism of the targeted information using arguments with superficial plausibility, the emphasis being on quantity, while employing a vast array of propagandistic techniques, factual distortions, and logical fallacies. Create a smokescreen of baseless arguments and distractions, clothed in claims of intellectual superiority and scientific legitimacy, such that the audience might be reassured that there is no need to look at the evidence of controlled demolition.”
You guys have been at it, nonstop, for years now… yet the demand for a new investigation grows… The rest of your post is typical obfuscatory crap… as for your closing comment, you say:
And let’s finish, as your “expert” does with
“The company in charge of WTC security, Securacom, featured George Bush’s brother, Marvin Bush, on the board of directors.”
From #163 RBG above, Bush left the security co in June 2000 and went on to help an insurance company that then lost $29 million in 9/11 insurance claims. You just can’t find good conspiracy insiders these days.
________________________
So what’s that prove… do you actually believe that Marvin Bush cares about the insurance company’s stockholders? I’m sure he didn’t incur any personal losses… executives nowadays run their corporations into the ground and walk off with multi-million dollar severance packages… As for the security company, Securacom, Marvin cashed out in a timely fashion, ensuring about a half-million dollar profit on his stock. Another director, his cousin Wirt Walker, probably did okay too. Hey, I just saw that Securacom, which was backed by Kuwaitis, was also in charge of security for Dulles Airport and American Airlines on that day…
Occams Razor==the simplest of competing theories is preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities.
ie==as filmed, 2 airplanes fly into two buildings causing them and surrounding buildings to collapse. THATS the simplest explanation. I don’t see any blood anywhere and you still haven’t explained how a simpler explanation is gained by ADDING conspiracies, ignorance, and impossibilities on top of the obvious.
I do assume more SkyTowers will be hit==cheap, dramatic. And as the cost of construction for model testing is prohibitive== I’m comfortable waiting for real life to confirm what real life has already shown us.
EE–I don’t think you answered the question that the “squibs” of explosions you see at WTC#7 is well above the zone of collapse making your “evidence” completely irrelevant, even if true?
#369 Mr. Gawd Almighty said:
Gawd says: Second, you use sources that in turn use bogus information. Your “Three Fingers” link uses an un-sourced picture. In this day I think we all understand how easy it is to use a little help (Photoshop) to get your point across. Ordinary people were not allowed near the WTC site so this picture had to be taken by either a journalist or a NY City authorized photographer. It would be watermarked and cited if it was legit. It isn’t so it isn’t legit.
Usual bullshit… “Ordinary people were not allowed near the WTC site so this picture had to be taken by either a journalist or a NY City authorized photographer.” Right, absolutely impossible that a fireman, cop or other of the emergency personnel could have sneaked a camera onto the site… Your refuge here is the golden rule of the deniers: “Only officially certified evidence may be used to impugn the official story.”
Given all of the stonewalling and suppressing of evidence, such a stringent requirement would seem to preclude a real challenge, but the official story is so self-contradictory that this ridiculous standard is rather easy to meet. A six-page paper published in The Open Civil Engineering Review called ‘Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction’ shows that a powerful case for reopening the investigation exists based on officially acknowledged facts alone.
http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCIEJ/2008/00000002/00000001/35TOCIEJ.SGM
Gawd says: The twoofers claim the fires weren’t hot enough to “melt” steel, yet claim that there were molten puddles dripping from the building AND in the debris pile for weeks.
See points 6,7 and 8 in the above cited paper…
Gawd says: There was no inspection for Thermite as all the ingredients are quite common: sulfur, iron, and aluminum.
See points 11 and 14 in the above cited paper…
Gawd says: Next time you have a fire going outside, drop a flat object, suck as a block on it. You will notice that the air rushes out from under your block just as if there had been an explosion. Now repeat the experiment with a larger fire and a larger block. Gee, again air rushes out from under the block just as if someone had put little explosive charges there.
Even when your block turns to dust in midair…?
Gawd says: Your penchant for laughing at science backed arguments is amazing. You don’t rebut with any facts, twoofers generally don’t.
See points 1 through 14 in the above cited paper…
Gawd says: All are welcome at DU. Be forewarned though, fools are not lightly treated. Or tolerated.
That’s a revelation…
Sounds like you’re hosed, Gawd! Jeez. And I always thought you were omniscient.
I’m listening to Book TV right now. Matt Taibbi just made an interesting and funny point about 911. He says Osama has some concrete real issues about the USA’s actions in this world, especially his world, and he manages to get airplanes to fly into WTC.
The USA’s citizenry’s reaction is that half think this was done by God to punish us for gay marriage, and the other half think it was done by George Bush.
“What can Bin Ladin do to get some credit?”
Funny stuff. ((And quite telling.))
#377 bobbo says: Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down…
Yeah, we’ve been there a dozen times now… it’s becoming a drag… I stipulate to planes hitting WTC1 & 2. No need to belabor that point. The building at the left in the video atop the page is WTC7…
bobbo says: EE–I don’t think you answered the question that the “squibs” of explosions you see at WTC#7 is well above the zone of collapse making your “evidence” completely irrelevant, even if true?
Dude.. we have two different events set side by side in the video. On the right we have what you agree is a controlled demolition of a building rather similar to WTC7… for convenience, let’s call it BCD. At a point early in the collapse of BCD, we see squibs of smoke emitted at the upper sections of the right corner, ‘well above the zone of collapse’. We see in closeup that similar puffs of smoke, albeit less pronounced, are emitted from the upper right corner of WTC7. What is your explanation for the squibs from BCD? What is your explanation for the squibs from WTC7? Articulate your explanations as a starting point for evaluating their relevance.
bobbo says: Occam’s Razor==the simplest of competing theories is preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities.
Excellent. Now remember… we are speaking of WTC7 here… Okay… WTC7. What is your theory of why that building fell? Of course you can’t subscribe to the official theory… there is no official theory… as of this writing, six years after the fact, NIST is still trying to find a “plausible” explanation So far then, there are only independent theories to consider. For a look at one of the more widely known (and most controversial), let’s reference the website of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. They point out that
WTC Building #7 (a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane) exhibits ALL the characteristics of a classic controlled demolition with explosives: (and some non-standard characteristics) 1) Rapid onset of “collapse” 2) Sounds of explosions at ground floor – a full second prior to collapse 3) Symmetrical “collapse” – through the path of greatest resistance – at nearly free-fall speed. 4) “Collapses” into its own footprint – with the steel skeleton broken up for shipment. 5) Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds. 6) Tons of molten Metal found by CDI (Demolition Contractor) in basement (What could have produced all of that molten metal?) 7) Chemical signature of Thermate (high tech incendiary) found in slag, solidified molten metal, and dust samples by Physics professor Steven Jones, PhD. 8) FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples 9) Expert corroboration from the top European Controlled Demolition professional. 10) Fore-knowledge of “collapse” by media, NYPD, FDNY. And exhibited NONE of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e: 1) Slow onset with large visible deformations. 2) Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires). 3) Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel. 4) High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never “collapsed”.
In other words, according to this website, a preponderance of evidence suggests that WTC7 was brought down by the process of explosive demolition. Let’s call this the ED theory. Now, find any other theory that is well-formed enough to compete with ED and let us see if Occam’s razor can help us choose between them…
#381–EE==just to keep you company until gawd or RBG might care to repeat themselves, I don’t really care enough to go back over even this thread to pick out what I think might have happened.
Controlled demolition is loopy.
Occams razor is WTC#7 was collateral damage to WTC #1&2. That much is simple. I can’t imagine what kind of “underground” damage occurred that would make WTC#7 collapse just like a controlled demolition BUT it obviously did–or a combination of falling debris and building design. I think I read above that everyone agrees there was 20 floors of damage to WTC#7 from falling debris? I don’t know how much damage, and where and the nature of damage it takes for a building to pancake==and I don’t think anyone every will. Too expensive/impossible to test and the models work however they are designed?
You can concentrate on “questions” about the engineering. I will rest on Occams Razor until something more complicated with proof comes along. Until that time, I take some comfort in the fact that there is NO NEED to find a conspiracy. Aren’t all the bad actors already indentified?? I think so. More evidence of their evil &/or incompetency is not needed and adds nothing. ((Well, if Bush did bring down 1-2 or 7, that would make him more evil, but I don’t think THAT of him, nor of rogue groups other than bin Ladin who took credit for it.))
The psychological question of the day would be: “Why do you care?–what difference would a definition answer one way or the other make in your life?”
IF you are stuck in a rut of “needing” to know, then I recommend a more sophisticated understanding of the universe that there are many things we will never know, or aren’t worth the effort to find out. And all the other normal challenges of life remain.
The ONLY conspiracy involved with 9-11 was that it was that 19 fools were manipulated into making the attack, and those doing the manipulation were in the employ of two people in the US Administration via a Pakistani money man. Means-motive-opportunity.
The crime: Grand Theft nation
It’s set to happen again.
Yesterday, that FEMA camp outside of town was only a tree farm. Occasionally there had been some trucks with workers going in and out. People tried to get the workers to chat about it, and all they got was a disinterested stare. They were all illegals anyway. Work was work and the economy was in a recession.
Tonight as you sit at home with your family watching American Idol, the program is interrupted by a bulletin from CNN’s Washington news bureau. A female army captain in battle uniform is reading a report about some kind of nuclear device that had detonated within the City of Houston. No one has yet claimed responsibility.
12 hours later and with every update, CNN shows the faces of a dozen dark haired men with Middle Eastern sounding names. The FBI had raided their apartments and found large amounts of documents and other evidence, – video tapes, parts, tools, and rolls of lead foil. The scene shifts to a news crew and team of FBI investigators at one of the apartments mentioned. One reporter holds up a driver’s license –last name Tehrani. Other documents held up to the camera reveal that Tehrani is a graduate physics student.
CNN cuts away now to a hurriedly arranged press conference at an air force base, somewhere in North Dakota. George W. Bush announces that martial law had been put into effect one hour after the nuclear detonation in Houston. He confirms everyone’s worse fears. For all 50 states and US protectorates, civilian air travel and railroad travel have been shut down.
All police, fire services, public and private telecommunications facilities have been federalized under Homeland Security. Active duty, national guard units and private security contractors are in control of roads, bridges, fuel, and food warehouses. The President hardly pauses before he continues to mention that the November elections will be cancelled, due to the present state of emergency.
Because perhaps, you’re a different kind of bear, you become vocal about the arbitrary dissolution of Congress and the mass arrests and detentions, under cover of numerous executive orders issued over the course of the previous eight years. You smelled a rat. You spoke up.
Flash forward a month: You within the local ‘Freedom Camp’, being pushed along, away from your FEMA trailer. The guards are harassing some of the more stubborn ones. You see many with bloody noses and bruises, in a queue that stretches for three blocks. You are now in that queue.
“You all stink,” says one. “We’re getting all you maggots over to the showers so you can get decontaminated. It’s for your health and safety.”
“I’m hungry, when can we eat?”
“Not until you get decontaminated. Now shut up.”
You realize that the place you are being walked towards is an old meatpacking plant, but there are no animals in that stockyard at the edge of the camp, to butcher. First, they come along and everyone is shaven down. Those doing the menial work are illegals, They walk up to each person in turn, taking their valuables away and putting them into crates. A woman follows behind, says she’s from the Red Cross and asks for anyway interested in donating blood. They’ll be able get their lunch without having to wait for the decontamination. Many agree and are escorted away from the queue.
You are about to ask the woman why it would be safe to give blood if you hadn’t yet been decontaminated, but suddenly she moves along and someone else is now asking each man for his name and social security number. Two old men in the begin to mumble, unable to remember their numbers. They’re ignored as the queue suddenly begins to move again. The line of men continue to surge every twenty minutes or so, then halts.
You smell something acrid, greasy. Just beyond the shower building you notice a thick plume of black smoke rising. You begin to hear the whispers. You can’t see, but you can hear someone scream, as he’s being clubbed down by three guards. The screaming stops.
You look around again and shake your head. How could this all happen?” you say to yourself. You feel a rising pitch of vomit climb up into your throat, and then all you can do is double over and retch. You are not the only one doing so. A rotten smell hangs in the air.
There is nobody there to rescue you. You cough and wipe your mouth with your sleeve and look around, angry now. One guy suddenly dashes out of the queue, heading towards a line of trees a hundred yards to the west. He gets 50 feet and then he’s gunned down by snipers from a watchtower. He could have waited – he could have bought some more time, maybe a minute, maybe more. What did it bring him to be a hero and try and make a run for it? Nobody cared. You’re still here and he is not. You smile.
More guards have arrived and they begin joking amongst themselves, pointing at the bullet-ridden body in the dust. They giggle at the sullen men queued up for decontamination.
One turns and makes eye contact with those in the queue. “You all smell like pigdip. I hope there’s some soap left by the time you reach the shower. Only clean pigs allowed here.”
The other guards recoil in laughter. The queue shuffles, occasionally surging forward. It has been hours. There must have been a thousand ahead of you, but thankfully, you near the building.
You hear muffled sounds within the building, unable to make out the words, the meaning. You hear doors quickly open and close. Then you and others move through a hallway, and told to remove your clothes and put them on the floor. Helpers walk up and down the hallway now. The helpers cheerfully tell everyone that their clothes will be tagged and returned after they’re decontaminated.
The mood brightens a bit around you. You can even hear a few joking. Orders are for everyone to remain calm and quiet. You’re reminded that there is plenty of warm water for everyone. It becomes silent now, as you all shuffle slowly towards another door. When the door opens, the helpers guide you in and you’re told to not bunch up together and reminded that it’s selfish to waste warm water.
You look up and see shower heads above you. You want to ask why the floor is not wet, but are afraid they’ll beat you if you raise your voice.
You notice now that the room smells of urine and death. Before you can say anything, the doors slam shut and the lights go out and a gas slowly rises up from the showerheads towards the ceiling.
You think to yourself – there might still be time that someone may somehow burst in to rescue all of you. You hear sobbing and realize it is coming from you.
And now you take in one long breath and your mind begins to fade to black.
The ONLY conspiracy involved with 9-11 was that it was that 19 fools were manipulated into making the attack and those doing the manipulation were in the employ of two people in the US Administration via a Pakistani money man. Means-motive-opportunity.
The crime? Grand theft nation
It’s set to happen again.
Yesterday, that FEMA camp outside of town was only a tree farm. Occasionally there had been some trucks with workers going in and out. People tried to get the workers to chat about it, and all they got was a disinterested stare. They were all illegals anyway. Work was work and the economy was in a recession.
Tonight as you sit at home with your family watching American Idol, the program is interrupted by a bulletin from CNN’s Washington news bureau. A female army captain in battle uniform is reading a report about some kind of nuclear device that had detonated within the City of Houston. No one has yet claimed responsibility.
12 hours later and with every update, CNN shows the faces of a dozen dark haired men with Middle Eastern sounding names. The FBI had raided their apartments and found large amounts of documents and other evidence, – video tapes, parts, tools, and rolls of lead foil. The scene shifts to a news crew and team of FBI investigators at one of the apartments mentioned. One reporter holds up a driver’s license –last name Tehrani. Other documents held up to the camera reveal that Tehrani is a graduate physics student.
CNN cuts away now to a hurriedly arranged press conference at an air force base, somewhere in North Dakota. George W. Bush announces that martial law had been put into effect one hour after the nuclear detonation in Houston. He confirms everyone’s worse fears. For all 50 states and US protectorates, civilian air travel and railroad travel have been shut down.
All police, fire services, public and private telecommunications facilities have been federalized under Homeland Security. Active duty, national guard units and private security contractors are in control of roads, bridges, fuel, and food warehouses. The President hardly pauses before he continues to mention that the November elections will be cancelled, due to the present state of emergency.
Because perhaps, you’re a different kind of bear, you become vocal about the arbitrary dissolution of Congress and the mass arrests and detentions, under cover of numerous executive orders issued over the course of the previous eight years. You smelled a rat. You spoke up.
Flash forward a month: You within the local ‘Freedom Camp’, being pushed along, away from your FEMA trailer. The guards are harassing some of the more stubborn ones. You see many with bloody noses and bruises, in a queue that stretches for three blocks. You are now in that queue.
“You all stink,” says one. “We’re getting all you maggots over to the showers so you can get decontaminated. It’s for your health and safety.”
“I’m hungry, when can we eat?”
“Not until you get decontaminated. Now shut up.”
You realize that the place you are being walked towards is an old meatpacking plant, but there are no animals in that stockyard at the edge of the camp, to butcher. First, they come along and everyone is shaven down. Those doing the menial work are illegals, They walk up to each person in turn, taking their valuables away and putting them into crates. A woman follows behind, says she’s from the Red Cross and asks for anyway interested in donating blood. They’ll be able get their lunch without having to wait for the decontamination. Many agree and are escorted away from the queue.
You are about to ask the woman why it would be safe to give blood if you hadn’t yet been decontaminated, but suddenly she moves along and someone else is now asking each man for his name and social security number. Two old men in the begin to mumble, unable to remember their numbers. They’re ignored as the queue suddenly begins to move again. The line of men continue to surge every twenty minutes or so, then halts.
You smell something acrid, greasy. Just beyond the shower building you notice a thick plume of black smoke rising. You begin to hear the whispers. You can’t see, but you can hear someone scream, as he’s being clubbed down by three guards. The screaming stops.
You look around again and shake your head. How could this all happen?” you say to yourself. You feel a rising pitch of vomit climb up into your throat, and then all you can do is double over and retch. You are not the only one doing so. A rotten smell hangs in the air.
There is nobody there to rescue you. You cough and wipe your mouth with your sleeve and look around, angry now. One guy suddenly dashes out of the queue, heading towards a line of trees a hundred yards to the west. He gets 50 feet and then he’s gunned down by snipers from a watchtower. He could have waited – he could have bought some more time, maybe a minute, maybe more. What did it bring him to be a hero and try and make a run for it? Nobody cared. You’re still here and he is not. You smile.
More guards have arrived and they begin joking amongst themselves, pointing at the bullet-ridden body in the dust. They giggle at the sullen men queued up for decontamination.
One turns and makes eye contact with those in the queue. “You all smell like pigdip. I hope there’s some soap left by the time you reach the shower. Only clean pigs allowed here.”
The other guards recoil in laughter. The queue shuffles, occasionally surging forward. It has been hours. There must have been a thousand ahead of you, but thankfully, you near the building.
You hear muffled sounds within the building, unable to make out the words, the meaning. You hear doors quickly open and close. Then you and others move through a hallway, and told to remove your clothes and put them on the floor. Helpers walk up and down the hallway now. The helpers cheerfully tell everyone that their clothes will be tagged and returned after they’re decontaminated.
The mood brightens a bit around you. You can even hear a few joking. Orders are for everyone to remain calm and quiet. You’re reminded that there is plenty of warm water for everyone. It becomes silent now, as you all shuffle slowly towards another door. When the door opens, the helpers guide you in and you’re told to not bunch up together and reminded that it’s selfish to waste warm water.
You look up and see shower heads above you. You want to ask why the floor is not wet, but are afraid they’ll beat you if you raise your voice.
You notice now that the room smells of urine and death. Before you can say anything, the doors slam shut and the lights go out and a gas slowly rises up from the showerheads towards the ceiling.
You think to yourself – there might still be time that someone may somehow burst in to rescue all of you. You hear sobbing and realize it is coming from you.
And now you take in one long breath and your mind begins to fade to black.
368 Ee; 372 Mr. Gawd: Hope you’re satisfied that you made me work for this one.
The WTC steel storage photos appear to be NIST photos. More interestingly, a great explanation & example of the techniques used to cut steel at the WTC site. And a demonstration of the identical slag left behind when cutting with these thermal lances.
http://tinyurl.com/43hjol
This site has a number of great photos of the cleanup that show steel columns cut at 45 degrees with slag; 45 degrees without slag; straight across with & without slag. Thermic lances and oxyacetylene torches were used to cut steel during the WTC rescue, recovery, and cleanup operations.
Most interesting is Ee’s 45 degree photo enlarged to show slag from that cut that had dripped onto loose debris below, obviously after the collapse.
http://tinyurl.com/4vck5g
RBG
318 Empirical evidence: “Moreover, at the following site alone, there are 110+ highly experienced pilots, mostly ex-military and now commercial, who say that the idea amature pilots performed those maneuvers seen on 9/11 is ludicrous. Check out”
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html
Dude, You and your 110+ highly experienced pilots are so busted.
All it takes is one commercial pilot with airline simulator experience to make that trip on a simulator and it explodes that myth.
Except tonight, just over an hour ago on Discovery Channel’s Mythbusters, we watched Jamie find and crash his NASA airline simulator onto the “Denver” airport rectangular runway. (He was going too fast and didn’t know where the landing gear switch was.) Next he actually landed it dead center on the runway this time with the radioed help from an air traffic controller who was not a pilot. Adam did the same. That was the first time behind the controls of any kind of aircraft for either of them and neither had any idea how to interpret any of the instruments. They were simply placed into the jet cockpit mid-flight(with headwind & turbulence), as though passengers who had each taken over from incapacitated pilots.
So now that begs the question: how do you think an actual pilot with a private license, then a multi-engine commercial license, heavy jet simulator time and then familiarization flights and route studies, etc. might have done in comparison?
So busted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters
RBG
“But the coup de grâce has to be the steel cut and stored at Hangar 17 of the Kennedy Airport in New York as seen in the link above.”
Paron me, should read “…link below.”
As in
http://tinyurl.com/43hjol