|
|
Unleashed: Unanswered 9/11 questions
The collapse of New York’s World Trade Centre on September 11, 2001 is arguably one of the most well documented events in human history. Less well documented is the controversy over why the buildings fell as they did.
At the time of writing, 357 architectural and engineering professionals have signed a petition which directly challenges the National Institute of Standards & Training’s official finding that the destruction of these massive buildings was caused solely by structural damage from the impact of jet airliners and the resulting fires.
[…]
Current research indicates that an incendiary (thermite) may have been used to sever the massive box columns of the towers, causing the buildings to plummet to the ground at close to free-fall speed.
[…]
“As no reports have come to light of any steel framed buildings collapsing due to fire, and as all steel framed buildings which had collapsed had done so due to explosive demolition, the logical way to have started the investigation of this surprising event would have been to question whether explosives had been used. This apparently did not occur.
William Rodriguez, an acknowledged hero of 9/11 who single-handedly rescued fifteen people from the North Tower, described a massive explosion in the basement which occurred before the first plane struck, pushing him upwards out of the seat of his chair.
The New York Fire Department’s oral histories project contains 118 witness statements which are strongly consistent with explosive demolition. Incredibly, none of this shocking testimony was included or acknowledged in any official investigation, including the 9/11 Commission.
If the towers were wired with explosives by terrorists prior to the planes, that would imply a lack of security on a massive scale that would be worth hiding. On the other hand, how do you hide that much work to rig buildings like that? If terrorists didn’t do it, why would the towers be rigged with explosives? Leaving aside the wacko’s government conspiracies, are other buildings routinely wired to blow to bring them straight down if something happens to prevent them falling onto other buildings? An interesting ‘protection’ scenario for the neighborhood that would be worth hiding for many reasons.
And then there’s this article from a few months ago with quotes from military experts like this one:
“A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible,” said Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret). With doctoral degrees in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Col. Bowman served as Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter.
“There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up,” continued Col. Bowman. “Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible. Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney.”
The event was filmed and I watched it in real time the day of the event. Too many “issues” the truthers advance are flatly contradicted by eyewitness testimony and film and photos as shown even in this thread and its links. What if the positions were reversed and some commission claimed there was a conspiracy with explosives set and what not? Wouldn’t the truthers in this scenario want to know how come there were no BIG explosions, no separate explosives residue, so witnesses coming forward to take credit or to reveal the plot? etc.
To Gawd and RBG–nice to see you guys demonstrate your expertise. I wish more issues were “objective” so as to clearly separate the wheat from the chaff? Don’t worry, I won’t cut you any slack on the non engineering stuff.
323, Bobbo,
Don’t worry, I won’t cut you any slack on the non engineering stuff.
Thanks for the acknowledgment. There is a difference between facts, as presented here, and opinion, which people have more of than assholes. The problem comes when some people start accepting opinion as fact. There is NO evidence of any “controlled explosions” yet somehow this has gone from an opinion to a fact in the pea brained twoofers argument.
I have degrees in History and Mechanical Engineering. My dream was to become a lawyer but never followed through and never practiced Engineering either. My math skills just aren’t good enough. But I sleep in enough Holiday Inn Expresses to know a thing or two.
Keep the peace bro. You too RBG. Time to go rip you two a new one on some other thread.
Okay, fuck you and your silly-ass discussion bitch
Well it was a fun discussion until the moderator got on the rag…
#326,
There are editors, not moderators on this forum. And he didn’t join in the idiocy other than to post the thread.
Get it outta’ your system upfront ” call me a “kook”.
I did not read through all 320 posts,but Ever see the film showing construction of the towers? something like 47 giant steel box columns rising through out the height of the building. If the floors “pancaked” downward we would be left with atleast a few giant steel columns poking upward out of the debris pile like dead sticks. That 100’s of feet of steel went somewhere(?)Why all the smoldering pools of iridecent hot steel weeks after the event?
I don’t have alot of answers but I do have questions.
There were constant news references through out that day of “secondary devices” found( not unlike the oklahoma city federal building).
Just Show me ONE of the confiscated security videos along the approach route to the pentagon, just ONE shows an airliner and I’ll shutup and go away.
Who benefits? Surely you jest; an entire armed country was taken over with out any blood in the streets. the executive claims to be above the law as does his vp…
Prez is Reading a book to school kids, and little to no reaction to “Sir the country is under attack”
Bush and cheney would only testify together, no cameras or transcript,
Tell me again who are the crazy people?
# 327 Mr. Gawd Almighty said,
There are editors, not moderators on this forum. And he didn’t join in the idiocy other than to post the thread.
Yeah right, that’s in keeping with you other statements, in terms of accuracy at least. Here’s what I get when I try to post links that demonstrate, e.g., that Underwriters Laboratories did indeed CERTIFY (not rate or grade) the WTC tower’s steel.
Thank you. Your comment will be displayed as soon as it is approved by a moderator.
And then it never appears…
Okay, maybe I’m on a roll here… Kevin Ryan was fired from UL because he insisted that they should stand by their data… but he hasn’t gone quietly:
http://www.ultruth.com/Kevin_Ryan.htm
Lots of links to Kevin’s writings and lectures… powerful stuff…
Here’s the latest message I get when trying to post…
Sorry, bad luck on this one, cow-boy, try again. You have 4 attempts left.
Fuck this bullshit… shove your website up your ass… (|)
327 Scooby. “Why all the smoldering pools of iridecent hot steel weeks after the event?”
First, show me that.
“Just Show me ONE of the confiscated security videos along the approach route to the pentagon, just ONE shows an airliner and I’ll shutup and go away.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8
RBG
#329,
Oh oh, looks like you got caught during an upgrade. That happens when a new subject is posted and usually only lasts a few seconds.
Fuck this bullshit… shove your website up your ass… (|)
Well considering what you brought to the party, I know I won’t miss you. But do have a good life.
BTW, the NIST preliminary report on WTC 7 is due out in July, 2008.
Willy Rodriguez, the janitor at WTC has the real story…………he heard explosions and together with others rescued people burnt in the explosions BELOW in the building BEFORE the planes hit the towers.He is known as THE LAST MAN ALIVE OUT OF THE WTC.
Depending on the time of day, which of the editors is checking the queue, and so on, it may be many hours before ‘caught’ comments are released.
9-11 planning began a month after George Bush took the oath of office in January, 2001.
It was to be a 21st-century warfare experiment, intended to simulate ‘shock-and-awe’ under the scenario of multiple airliners full of jet fuel crashing into office towers in Jakarta, Indonesia.
The military didn’t know that Cheney and Rumsfeld had been coordinating with well-paid representatives managing of a group of 19 young, naïve men, who’d been getting ‘crash courses’ at private flight schools, and at one or two at U.S. Naval air station in Virginia.
The 19 thought they were going to board airliners in Boston and Newark, and hijack
them in order to negotiate a swap of Muslim Brotherhood prisoners being held in Egypt.
The intended targets of the airliners were known only to five of the 19 Muslims – and to Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.
Cheney and Rumsfeld best-guessed that no more than one of he aircraft might reach its target, thinking that perhaps Langley AFB would scramble, possibly others. One was sufficient for shock and awe. The electronic warfare operations under cover of the war-fighting games was more effective than expected. Of all aircraft hijacked, only flight 93 was shot down – by a DEA drug interdiction aircraft.
Bush was told the week prior to expect an airliner to impact on September 11. He was not
involved in the operational planning. He was only mildly surprised at the news whispered into his ear of a second plane hitting the WTC, but not surprised enough to prevent him from reading the rest of a goat story to a kindergarten class in Florida for another eight minutes.
Yes, there were explosives placed in the prior year in the WTC building, but their significance has drawn far too much attention. This has diverted research into the other more critical aspects of this.
Under cover of the war games, communications were intentionally disrupted, air defense SOPs ignored. 21st century war fighting techniques were being put to the test, and chaos ensued. What was advertised within the military as a simulated war fighting exercise was secretly handed by Cheney and Rumsfeld over to the 19 unwitting patsies on a silver platter.
1998 began with a military industrial complex approaching bankruptcy. They found
willing allies at PNAC. Those owning the military industrial complex didn’t ask many questions. They just said, “Get it done.”
DC Madam, Deborah Jeane Palfrey was lynched about three weeks ago. You can find a complete download of all her scanned phone records from 1995 to early, 2008, on Gutenberg archive as a large zip. A phone number that appears in there several times towards the end was linked to an apartment Dick Cheney was renting in Wash, D.C.
Palfrey and her attorney had requested a closed, classified hearing, where she’ d be able to subpoena intelligence agents, produce classified information, to gain some ‘insurance’, and to attempt a deal to avoid going to prison. Palfrey told others she knew that if sent to prison, she would be murdered. The fact her crime of pandering was not a federal offense was irrelevant. One of her witnesses had a bit of a ‘misunderstanding’ with the Houston police (Blackwater?) the week before Palfrey herself was strung up in a shed.
Article May 2, 2008
Top CIA Agent Killed Trying To Protect D.C. Madam
US news reports also show that CIA Agent Carnaby’s attempts to call for help from being murdered were not answered in time. US news sources are also reporting that Carnaby’s wife has retained an attorney and plans to sue American authorities for her husband’s brutal death. Carnaby’s execution is by Houston police is available on Youtube.
It’s not over – the real truth movement about 9-11 has not even yet begun. Don’t let the disinformation and loony element sidetrack the focus.
Every crime investigation begins with an assessment of means, motive and opportunity.
9-11 became a maneuvered coup for the military industrial complex. It signaled the beginning of the largest transfer of wealth in human history, the largest assault on America’s freedoms, and the first of a long series of disastrous blows to America’s economy and future security.
337 Gladiator
For your benefit, I’ll wonder again why such a perfectly planned conspiracy didn’t have Bush put on a big act of surprise & outrage instead of the more calming reading of the kids book?
You do realize when you offer no evidence to back your claims it becomes equal to a fairy tale that absolutely anyone can easily make up?
And if this madam knew she had all this stunning evidence, wonder why she didn’t provide for its automatic release before she was “assassinated” all these years later? Forgot, I guess.
RBG
#333:RBG:
hotspots on Sept16,http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html
and thats temp in kelvin not fahrenheit…the approach “video” was interesting( and probably the best computer generated rendition Ive seen yet)…
but still doesn’t qualify as a “security video. I remember tv news video of front loaders moving glowing debris and workers talking about melting boots just can’t spend the time looking for the exact clip of news footage.
I don’t understand why it has become a crime to ask questions in this country…People get to flinging insults first…
It is murder made to look like suicide, an accident or natural death. In this case, however, an alibi, a scheme of explanation is pre-established, in case some blunder should allow the criminal hand to be detected: an implausible scheme, without proof or witnesses and preferably scandalous, which, when thrown to public opinion at the first sign of distress from the crime’s authors, will create doubt and confusion. The power of the lodges is such that they can impose this suggestion on journalists, on various police forces, on magistrates, STIFLING THE TRUTH JUST LONG ENOUGH for life to continue, AND FOR THE PUBLIC TO BE ABSORBED IN SOME OTHER NEWS TOPIC. Later, some Yallop or other can reconstitute the crime point by point and denounce its authors. BUT BY THEN IT IS ANCIENT HISTORY, and doubt allows everyone to keep to his position.” (emphasis added PNL)
For those of you who are still gathering enough points of reference, here is the common thread. JFK, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City, JFK Jr., WTC and the Iraq-Afganistan fiascoes were all imperfect crimes therefore the truth was stifled long enough for the public to be absorbed in some other news topic, by then it is ancient history and nobody can gather enough signatures, outrage or backing to change this outcome of history.
The DC Madam did not come into possession of the
details until last year.
As far as why Bush didn’t pretend panic and outrage?
Because he didn’t need to. He only knew what he
was told, and was told that everything was being
‘taken care of’.
Good lesson: 9/11 gets the hit count up.
#337
Interesting post… there are many pieces to this puzzle, some big, some small… yet the largest and the most crucial are still “classified” of course… but bit by bit the truth comes out. The mainstream media, for the most part, continues to pander to its corporate sponsors and promote the official version, but for those who seek to see beyond the facade, a comprehensive picture is slowly emerging.
It wasn’t long ago that I began to question the official version of 9/11 events, and I seem to have caught a wave. A controversy that was background noise is coming to the forefront of our attention and a once muted discourse builds toward a crescendo. Yes, there have been little flare-ups through the early years… e.g., the Steven E. Jones controversy, where a physics professor claimed to find traces of thermite in the rubble of the towers… but he quickly lost his job and that, seemingly, was the end of it…
Jones, Kevin Ryan and some others who publicly questioned the official account were not only dismissed from their positions but subjected to harsh cacophonies of ridicule and slander… but they hung in there, and found their way to a worldwide forum called the internet. And here we are now, freely discussing these issues… it’s amusing to see now how the tide has turned.
Overall, the mainstream media was silent except for occasional “debunking” hit pieces… like when Popular Mechanics, a Hearst publication and cheerleader for exotic military weaponry, hired Benjamin Chertoff as a senior researcher. He was commissioned to write a piece about the veracity of the government’s account of 9/11, an event that led directly to the creation of Homeland Security, a body that his cousin Michael now heads…
The debunkers having shot their sterile wad, the expressions of skepticism continue, and we see ever more celebrities and politicians voicing doubts. And there’s action in the trenches, here on the net, in threads like this one. I’ve been in a few other such discussions and they can get intense. At first it was rather dismaying to get insulted by a bunch of faceless folk who insist that anyone who dares question the “consensus” is a @#$%^&* (choose your favorite pejorative). But the more I’ve gotten into these kinds of discussions, the more research I’ve been forced to do… it’s been worthwhile.
So I don’t harbor any resentment against the “deniers”… they’ve served a purpose… just as has Dubya, the perfect guy to reveal to the nation how corrupt the system has become, and drive it into bankruptcy in the bargain. When Bush said that God had told him to run for office, I thought it was BS, but I see now that God has a MAGNIFICENT sense of humor…
So here we have the truthers vs. the deniers… and what a game! On the deniers side we have a front line of RBG, bobbo and Mister Gawd Almighty himself. Let’s see if we can predict the outcome by analyzing their styles of play.
RBG has his talking points down and he usually stays on message, but he’s playing defense and it’s a tough position to defend. When he gets off balance and has to improvise, things can go badly. E.g., when confronted with the video at the top of the page, he claims that the huge pyroclastic flow ensuing WTC7’s collapse is due to “batteries”. When we try to pursue this, he jumps over to a high floor of a tower and starts talking about liquid lead from batteries glowing white… A valiant try, but a leap too far and RBG must be charged with at least two egregious errors.
bobbo has an interesting strategy; he enters the game under the guise of being neutral, then suddenly pulls out Occam’s razor and starts slashing at the truther’s arguments… trouble is that he can’t tell the sharp from the dull edge and so he doesn’t know which way it cuts; i.e., a lot of flailing but to no good effect.
And then there’s Mr. Gawd Almighty, the denier in chief… I’ll give it to him: this guy is awesome… check this exchange out. In #321, Gawd replies to ZM’s observation that WTC7 fell “…straight down through the path of greatest resistance at free fall speed.” with “Where did this come from? Please give a citation for that.” (Gawd that’s audacious!) And next, to ZM’s question “And again, why the symmetrical collapse that looks exactly like a standard controlled demolition?” he comes back with “Who said it was symmetrical? Please give a citation for that. Please cite what any 50 floor building looks like with a controlled demolition.”
Now there’s a player! He hits ZM with the double shots “Where did this come from?” and “Who said it was symmetrical?” when the video that shows the truth of these statements is RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE! But before anyone can nail him with a return shot, he slips aside with “BTW, Youtube is not a reliable source.” A gallant effort by the Almighty Denier himself… looks like they might just last a few more rounds…
#344–Libertymike==I have not read the government report. I did watch the WTC come down live on tv. I saw the second plane hit the building. I watched the buildings burn for 2-3 hours then they fell.
Seems to me any rational person starts with that and anyone claiming something else other than what was seen and filmed has the burden to PROVE otherwise, not just have a bunch of unanswered questions.
In one short paragraph, or longer if you choose, what is your theory as to what really happened? Mine is all on film but I will write it out for you if you insist.
>>I did watch the WTC come down live on tv.
There was a time delay, Bobster.
328 Scooby
“Just Show me ONE of the confiscated security videos along the approach route to the pentagon, just ONE shows an airliner and I’ll shutup and go away.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8
339. Scooby “…still doesn’t qualify as a “security video”
I’m assuming you did take the time to watch the part where the animation dissolves into the perfectly-matched actual security video, didn’t you?
From the above link, Integrated Consultants, Inc. refers to this video as “Exhibit-B Security Cam Video.”
“The video requested by Judicial Watch was taken from security cameras at the Pentagon”
The Justice Department has handed over tapes showing American Airlines Flight 77 striking the building outside Washington to Judicial Watch, a public interest group that requested the video, the group said.
“We fought hard to obtain this video…
CNN http://tinyurl.com/mhss7
Let us review:
I showed ONE
of the confiscated (by the Justice Department)
security videos
along the approach route to the Pentagon.
ONE shows an airliner.
The only question now is “where would you like us to forward your mail?”
RBG
#345–Empirical==generally==nicely written but too general to be a creditworthy response? Take a statement you think is wrong and show how it is wrong. Being conclusionary is a childs game.
If you think some/many/one of my comments doesn’t know the sharp from the dull end==you have said nothing beyond a rhetorical fart, and it does smell. How does anyone “suddenly” pull anything out in a blog posting (pink cows!!)==gee, I guess it can be done.
However, I think saying what is seen and filmed at the time of the occurrence is the simplest explanation and under Occams Razor, mostly likely the truth unless overwhelmed by EVIDENCE not by nay-saying.
Go ahead–take any single point of contention and prove a “conspiracy.”==or a piece thereof.
#347–Mustard==now that you mention it, yes probably. If they cut away to avoid shots of people jumping, I’m ok with that. So, how might the delay have misrepresented the general course of events that day?
#349 bobbo the mad slasher… you keep saying “plane hit buildings, buildings fall down. Occam’s razor.” Let me see if I can get this through to you… WTC7 WAS NOT HIT BY A PLANE! Do you understand that and concede the point?
The topic of this thread is the video posted above. It juxtaposes the collapse of WTC7 with what many will recognize as a controlled demolition of a building of similar size. Do you agree that this is what the video shows?
The point then is that the fall of WTC7 is very similar, in virtually all important respects, to that of a controlled demolition. To review the three points that the video emphasizes:
1) WTC7 falls straight down through what should be the path of greatest resistance, and at free fall speed.
2) Little squibs of smoke are seen emerging at the corner columns (crucial structural members) just as the buildings begin to fall.
3) A massive cloud of dust, such as is commonly identified as a pyroclastic flow, envelopes the surrounding terrain.
Do you assert trickery or do you accept what you see? If the latter, then strop your razor bobbo. Now… which way does it cut?
#345 Emperical e.
“E.g., when confronted with the video at the top of the page, he claims that the huge pyroclastic flow ensuing WTC7’s collapse is due to “batteries”. When we try to pursue this, he jumps over to a high floor of a tower and starts talking about liquid lead from batteries glowing white”
I said nothing of WTC7 and batteries. I showed, with cited evidence, the nature of one of the bright, molten flows out of one of the twin towers – the usual source of woo crapola.
If you are presenting new woo, thinking that those small dark amorphous smudges we see on the side of the building (as opposed to violent ejecta on the demolition split-screen side)are literally “pyroclastic” flows, you are going to make things very easy for me.
First, how do you know a little dark amorphous moving smudge on video is a “pyroclastic flow” ie: molten concrete. You just wish it was?
Second: the idea that these blobs represent blobs of melted concrete pouring out (the windows?) without indication of any sustained temperatures or sustained explosion needed to melt that volume of concrete stretches credulity.
On the other hand we know this building was showered by Twin tower debris, dust and powder, as were the streets and buildings of New York. We also know air must at some point force its way out of a collapsing smoke-filled building, as we saw in the twin towers.
Interestingly, people actually saw the face of the devil in the smoke of the twin towers, you see “pyroclastic flows.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyroclastic_flow
RBG
#351–Empirical==late response as Dvorak was off line. Mad Slasher? I wish I deserved such a “dynamic” name. I also don’t feel as qualified as RBG and Gawd to perry and post with you here, but my interest is real so I will engage. To each of your points:
1. Let me see if I can get this through to you… WTC7 WAS NOT HIT BY A PLANE! Do you understand that and concede the point? /// OK, we may be talking past each other as I haven’t been talking about WTC7 at all. I watched 1&2 get hit and come down. Lets see if that is germane to the rest of your post.
2. The topic of this thread is the video posted above. It juxtaposes the collapse of WTC7 with what many will recognize as a controlled demolition of a building of similar size. Do you agree that this is what the video shows? /// Yes.
3. 1) WTC7 falls straight down through what should be the path of greatest resistance, and at free fall speed. /// Free Fall? How do you know that? Would it make a difference if the rate was .99 of free fall?
4. 2) Little squibs of smoke are seen emerging at the corner columns (crucial structural members) just as the buildings begin to fall. /// Yes, saw that but the building collapse very much below those puffs of smoke “and” the building did not collapse in that direction. Those squibs look more like objects being ejected thru the windows of the building-but its hard to tell. So–what do those squibs of smoke mean?
5. 3) A massive cloud of dust, such as is commonly identified as a pyroclastic flow, envelopes the surrounding terrain. /// Yep, saw that. I note that every “real” picture of demolition shows much more dirt and dust than do Hollywood special effects. Thats a side point as dirt and dust is thrown up by demolition as well. So, this means what?
6. Do you assert trickery or do you accept what you see? If the latter, then strop your razor bobbo. Now… which way does it cut? // I accept the film at face value. It shows a building falling down. “It looks like” is not proof of anything==only the human minds ability to make associations. On a blank slate, I would say “looks like” provides a basis to make inquiries as to which scenario has more technical/engineering/witness support. So, the film is the first step of analysis, not the final cut of an answer. Now we are off and running with all the engineering posts above and from those I would say damage to the foundation would explain a building “falling” but not pancaking. But for all I know with construction techniques the way they are, maybe the pancake is exactly what one would expect like that PBS special showed.
The conspiracies I know of that have validity is “something happens” and the government tries to pin it on other people. Conspiracies from the ground up are too difficult and always subsequently revealed.
I guess we have to wait for a Twin Towers film clip to get posted?
Re #353 bobbo…
Okay, I appreciate the reply… I’m back and forth between this and other adventures today, and I’ll probably quit for the evening soon, but let’s cover what we can of the points in question. I’m going to start at the bottom of your post and work upwards.
You say “Conspiracies from the ground up are too difficult and always subsequently revealed.” Well, the ‘subsequent revelation’ part is right, but often the time lag is such that exposure is of little consequence. As for ‘too difficult’, are you familiar with the term ‘false flag’? From Wikipedia: “False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities.”
I think you’ll be amazed to discover how practiced and accomplished our government has become at these things… at least I was. For a very compelling history of recent false flag events google ‘Terrorstorm’. (I’d post a link, but I’ve noticed that my text-only messages don’t usually get delayed.) This video, first posted about a year ago, has gotten millions of hits and is well worth watching… the longer ‘final cut’ version is the most recent release.
Uh oh, I’m starving… talk to you soon…
#354–Emp==take your time. I’ll check the thread. Lets not get too far afield??? I suggest finding the smallest issue worth the discussion. Right now, you seem convinced the pancake free fall collapse AND the puffs of smoke are telling evidence of planned demolition? Pick those and support the argument or select other issues. Again==I’m looking for some measure of “proof” of a competing theory rather than ignorance, questions, or side issues poking holes in less than a perfect “apparent causation.”
Enjoy your meal. I’m drinking beer–so you have about 2 hours tonight.