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“I said, ‘You know what? Take your business elsewhere,'” Hernandez said. Grant then drew a handgun. Assistant manager Roberto Espinal, behind a side counter, drew his gun. When Grant turned that way, Hernandez pulled his gun. It was 5 p.m., and the store was jammed with customers, loading up for dinner on their way home, who hadn’t counted on a three-way, Wild West standoff. Grant made the first move. He backed out of the store and started firing. One bullet struck the front wall above the doorway, one hit the wall beside the door, and one imbedded in the ceiling over the cash registers. One cashier, all of 16 years old, was on her first day on the job.
“A lot of chicken was left on shopping carts,” Hernandez said. “Customers started screaming, going for the floor.” But, he said, “I’m a quick thinker. When I saw the first bullet hit high, right away I knew I was dealing with someone that was not a good shooter.” The two managers surrounded Grant as he backed into the parking lot, hid behind a car, and fired a fourth shot. “He said, ‘You calling the police?'” I said, ‘Hell, yeah I am.'” Hernandez said. “I said, ‘Put the gun down. Put the gun down. It’s not worth it.’ Then he said, ‘You’re going to beat me up if I put the gun down.’ I said, ‘I’m not going to beat you up.’ ” Police then arrived and took Grant away. He was charged with attempted first-degree murder, shooting into an occupied dwelling, aggravated assault with a firearm and carrying a concealed firearm.
God bless America
Makes me proud==all that freedom on display.
This is the way to do it the right way:
April 27, 2008
NASHVILLE, Tenn. — Police said a pair of armed men entered a liquor store Saturday night and attempted to rob the business, but met up with another armed person inside.
That armed person was a customer, who shot one of the robbers dead.
The other robber fled on foot and has not been captured or identified by police.
Police said the customer does have a valid Tennessee permit needed to carry a weapon.
It’s a “shootout” when only one person is shooting? Sounds like all was handled well.
imagine how dangerous it would have been if everyone had been unarmed! guns makes everything safer kids!
#4, exactly what is your plan for disarming the criminals? Disarming the good guys would be easy, but that doesn’t make the bad guy back out of the store like happened in this story.
Oh, we can make them illegal, like drugs! That will work great!
Gun Nut said:
“blah blah blah”
Gun Grabber said:
“I don’t any valid arguments when facts are introduced into the discussion”
you mean like ben stein “facts”, professor?
imagine how dangerous it would have been if everyone had been unarmed!
You mean everyone but the robber right? Because thats who would have had the illegal gun. Then everyone would have been at his mercy. Good plan…
Ouch, that hurt. (ben stein = right wings version of al gore)
No, real facts.
Bad guy starts shooting into store, Good guys pull guns, but do not shoot due to risk of hitting bystanders in crowded store, bad guy leaves when faced with armed good guys.
HEY GUN NUTS===so in the next store incident when everyone opens up and three shoppers are killed will you add up the score?
National statistics do this adding up for you. USA leads the Western World in death by guns. No one else comes close.
Any case in isolation is meaningless. I recall when seatbelts were being considered for mandatory installation. All kinds of stories came out about how people got thrown from their cars at 50 mph and lived whereas had they been in seat belts they would have died. And the seductive part is that it was true. BUT ADD UP THE STATISTICS.
The only thing this story shows is how twisted irrational gun policy has made this country.
That’s because there have been pitifully few stories where there was a good guy present. We need more armed good guys to create the statistics you are looking for. Like in the early days of seat belts.
Would you disarm cops? Look at the statistics, guns kill people.
Half of the gun deaths in the USA are suicides, still Japan, with no guns, has a much higher suicide rate than the USA. How about those statistics.
Must everyone one who owns a gun in this country be referred to as a GUN NUT? I own a TV, does that make me a TV NUT? I do admit though, I am a motorcycle freak.
#12–Les==well, that’s an excellent point==but I don’t think your facts are true. I’d have to check but the Western World Leading Death By Guns Rate I believe is in fact “murder” rates not including suicide. But, its been awhile and I don’t want to go off half cocked.
#13–McCullough==gun nuts are those who advocate self destructive gun ownership policy. Mere ownership of a gun does not qualify (although you are suspect!) and lack of gun ownership does not disqualify.
You are a TV NUT if you watch as much as I do.
You are a motorcycle freak if you change the motor oil on your living room white shag carpet.
#14, Well, I used to keep my motorcycle in my apartment living room, like da Fonz, ehhhh.
2004 USA statistics:
16,750 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,624 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
649 unintentional shootings,
311 from legal intervention
235 from undetermined intent (4% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
the 30000 deaths a year number which gets spouted is over 1/2 suicides.
Overall the USA gun death rate rate is 9.85 / 100000
get rid of suicides and the rate drops to 4.27 / 100000
Oh Japans suicide rate is 25 / 100000 where in the USA it is only about 12 / 100000.
Here is a source you can look at,
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
or do your own research.
The US is a violent culture, but it is more about our culture, than about the tools we use.
#15–Les==culture and tools interact. In fact, once could argue the culture is shaped by and limited by its tools? From that, I take it you think the highest death rate by murder from guns is acceptable for some abstract and factually contradicted fact of being free to protect yourself from criminals or the government?
Well, that’s a value statement. I prefer the guns less prevalent societies I have had the pleasure of experiencing.
We went to war with the “terrorists” for a mere 3000 deaths yet home grown murders get a “meh” … fascinating.
#15–Les. Interesting stats on your cite.
USA Homicide by Firearms==3.72/100K
England is .11
Spain is .21
Ireland is .03.
So, on average homicide by firearm in USA is 37 times higher in USA than our western brothers.
Why talk about irrelevant suicide rates?
First, I am glad I don’t live in the country with the highest death rate by murder from guns, I see 4 higher rated countries on the chart which I posted a link to, which is not a complete list.
I also see many of the countries with the highest percentage of firearm ownership have some of the lowest death rate by murder from guns.
ie New Zealand with 22.3% of households having guns, and one of the lowest death rate by murder from guns (0.17 / 100000) ,or Norway where 32.0% of homes have guns, and the death rate by murder from guns is only 0.30 / 100000.
Also note that Mexico, where guns are illegal has two times the death rate by murder from guns that the USA has.
These facts don’t seem to support the get rid of guns to make the country safer position.
#21–Les==gun nuts never do.
#20 bobbo,
I see the stats you are pulling, countries with low firearm ownership rates, and low firearm murder rates. In my previous post I listed countries with high firearm ownership rates, and low firearm murder rates. The two are not as directly related as you would like to think. Also, you will find that England’s (admittedly low) firearm murder rates went up significantly when there most recent gun control laws were passed about 10 years ago.
#23–Les. Yes, that’s the challenge in choosing statistics. How to be fair. That’s why from the start I said “Western Societies.” USA or our culture is still made up of mostly English/Irish==maybe Germany if enough time has passed from WW2? I threw in Spain to get a mexican flavor even though it had higher rates. Mexico itself I didn’t look at given our divergent cultures.
Many interactive and variable factors. You can let yourself believe whatever you want to, as I do. I start with the “feeling” of safety I have here in the USA compared to foreign countries. That comfort level of walking the streets at night is highly correlated to the death by gun rate.
You should always add Switzwerland to your argument. It has mandatory gun ownership and mandatory training and qualification.
[Comment deleted – Violation of Posting Guidelines. – ed.]
#25–nappy==that cracks me up, I don’t know why. Just don’t make me shoot myself.
#12 Guns kill people…
So do knives, but we won’t ban knives
Oh, wait. The east coast Mecca of Liberalism is doing just that.
http://tinyurl.com/3vvwzt
And of course…
A concurrent proposal to round up violent and “undocumented” MS-13 gang members for immediate deportation was promptly rejected. You know, what with it being racist, and all.
#27–jbenson===knife vs machete?
Les,
Some real facts.
The issue of “home defense” or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. Of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998).
…
Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman, et al) It would appear that, rather than beign [sic] used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.
The American Association of Suicidology … estimate :
92 percent of all suicide attempts with a gun are fatal. Gun researcher Josh Sugarmann writes “Unlike pills, gas, or razor blades–which are of limited effectiveness–guns are rarely forgiving. For example, self-inflicted cutting wounds account for 15 percent of all suicide attempts but only I percent of all successful suicides. Poisons and drugs account for 70 percent of suicide attempts but less than 12 percent of all suicides. Conversely, nonfatal, self-inflicted gunshot wounds are rare–yet three-fifths of all U.S. suicides involve firearms.
…
… gun advocates must rely even more heavily on arguments of defensibility. The fear of getting shot back, they argue, will deter most murderers. And there is a degree of truth behind this argument — police, for example, wear sidearms precisely for their deterrence effect and protective benefits. Surveys of criminals show that they tend to avoid targets they feel might be risky.
But ultimately this argument fails, even in principle. A central tenet of game theory is that attackers have the advantage over defenders. A defender must defend against all possibilities of attack, and in doing so defends none of them very well. An attacker has to choose only one line of attack, and therefore can do it extremely well. Attackers have the advantage of surprise, planning and initiative.
@#21. Look at Switzerland. Everyone is required to own a gun in that country. Seems like a friendly, peaceful place to me.
>>I start with the “feeling” of safety I have
>>here in the USA compared to foreign countries.
Maybe you’d have a greater “feeling” of safety if you started packing a friend, Bobster. I know that if I were a criminal, I’d think long and hard before mugging you if I thought there was a likelihood you had a .44 magnum under your blazer.