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“I said, ‘You know what? Take your business elsewhere,'” Hernandez said. Grant then drew a handgun. Assistant manager Roberto Espinal, behind a side counter, drew his gun. When Grant turned that way, Hernandez pulled his gun. It was 5 p.m., and the store was jammed with customers, loading up for dinner on their way home, who hadn’t counted on a three-way, Wild West standoff. Grant made the first move. He backed out of the store and started firing. One bullet struck the front wall above the doorway, one hit the wall beside the door, and one imbedded in the ceiling over the cash registers. One cashier, all of 16 years old, was on her first day on the job.
“A lot of chicken was left on shopping carts,” Hernandez said. “Customers started screaming, going for the floor.” But, he said, “I’m a quick thinker. When I saw the first bullet hit high, right away I knew I was dealing with someone that was not a good shooter.” The two managers surrounded Grant as he backed into the parking lot, hid behind a car, and fired a fourth shot. “He said, ‘You calling the police?'” I said, ‘Hell, yeah I am.'” Hernandez said. “I said, ‘Put the gun down. Put the gun down. It’s not worth it.’ Then he said, ‘You’re going to beat me up if I put the gun down.’ I said, ‘I’m not going to beat you up.’ ” Police then arrived and took Grant away. He was charged with attempted first-degree murder, shooting into an occupied dwelling, aggravated assault with a firearm and carrying a concealed firearm.
God bless America
#29 Could that be because most “suicide attempts” are cries for help. When someone uses a gun, they mean it.
#28 – yup, good call.
I guess the big downturn in Boston-grown sugar cane is causing the workers to find other uses for their machetes.
so now you’re an expert on suicide? you draw conclusions from data – not invent or select data to support your asinine conclusions. but then again, any idiot could all themselves a scientist.
I’m from Canada, can’t carry a gun around. I had a situation similar to the above situation…a “customer” entered after hours via the exit, and when I attempted to escort him out, he put a knife to my throat.
One night, two blocks away from my home I was assaulted and badly beaten by three bored drunken young men.
One of my best friends, his sister and mother were murdered by his father, who used a baseball bat and a knife as weapons.
Guns don’t hurt/kill people, criminals do…and they’ll use whatever is at their disposal.
If a lot of people have something can kill a lot of people efficiently, a lot of people will die. The less people than have things that can kill a lot of people efficiently, the less people will die.
No amount of sophistry, statistics, or argument will change that fact.
It isn’t a complicated argument.
#36–Uncle Ben==how do you know what you know? On what basis do you form opinions?
You post “no facts” (ie, statistics) will change your facts? What are facts then in your mind? simply what you think?
The links in this thread show you that the death by firearm “facts” are very complicated.
There is a moderately strong correlation between guns per capita and death by guns, both homicide and suicide, but it is only a correlation.
How is it that every adult male in Switzerland has a gun but death from guns is one seventh that of USA? BECAUSE OTHER FACTORS COME INTO PLAY. Most people think in Switzerland it is the fact that there are many safety net social services available, lots of counseling, mandatory training in firearm use, complete registration of firearms, ethnic homogeneity, a de-emphasis of religion, a culture of tolerance for differences.
Now, if you don’t think those factors and 15 others all interact with one another making simple statements difficult to defend, then you are just as deficient as the gun nuts who do the same thing.
>>…a de-emphasis of religion…
Aw, Bob. Are you putting forth the proposition that de-emphasizing religion leads to a reduction in gun deaths? That’s one I haven’t heard before, and I haven’t heard that religion has been “de-emphasized” in Switzerland. In fact, the Swiss roundly rejected the intitative requiring complete separation of church and state (see below from Wikiwhatever).
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[3]
* 48% of Swiss citizens responded that “they believe there is a God”.
* 39% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.
* 9% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force”.
The country is historically about evenly balanced between Catholic and Protestant regions. The larger cities (Bern, Zürich, Basel, Geneva) are traditionally Protestant, while Central Switzerland and the Ticino are traditionally Catholic. The Swiss constitution of 1848, under the recent impression of the clashes of Catholic vs. Protestant cantons that culminated in the Sonderbundskrieg, consciously defines a consociational state, allowing the peaceful co-existence of Catholics and Protestants. A 1980 initiative calling for the complete separation of church and state was clearly rejected, with only 21.1% voting in support.
#38–Mustard==From Memory==only about 50% of the Swiss profess a belief in God. That 50% is about evenly split between Catholics and Protestants. No blowing up of Abortion Clinics. Disregard that factoid if you think others are stronger.
Bobster: That’s because the Swiss seem to have a congenital lack of the desire to become flaming nut-case whack-job fundamentalist fire-and-brimstone lunatics. The latter are the ones who bomb abortion clinics, shoot abortion doctors, and drag gays behind pickup trucks until dead.
For most people (including the Swiss), belief in a higher power is beneficial. If I could read minds, I’ll bet that a much smaller fraction of the folks who attend my church will become (or already are) violent criminals is much less than a random sample of the population.
The Bob-Man:
Switzerland is wealthy country with a good social net. All the men in Switzerland get formal and extensive training on how to use a gun properly. It is also a country of 6 million people, which is significant easier to manage rather than a country of 230 million. That would certainly go a long a way to explain why Switzerland has less gun crime that the USA. But that doesn’t really disprove my statement that “If a lot of people have something can kill a lot of people efficiently, a lot of people will die.”
Sure, Switzerland has a lower gun-related death rate than most country. Sure, if American taught all its citizens how to use a gun properly and gave them military training the rate of gun-related deaths in the US would go do down. If the US introduced Swiss-style social services that would also probably help bring down gun crime.
However, gun related deaths, and death in general, would be less if people didn’t have guns. It isn’t rocket science and the statistics aren’t that complicated.
Guns kill be efficiently. The more guns people have, the more people will be killed efficiently by these killing weapons.
I’d also take exception to your argument about the Swiss being a homogenous group. There are four languages spoken (I think only three: French, German and Italian) are another obscure one only spoken in one region (called: Romansh which is Latin based I believe) and the diversity of culture to match. But then that is neither here nor there….
-Ben.
For the gun grabber statisticians out there: Before reading I’d just like to add the 2d Amendment is an unalienable right. The 2d Amendment was written so ‘We the People’ can defend ourselves from tyranny. Our rights, and the exercise of them, are the difference between living as slaves or as free men. It is not lost upon us citizens that love our liberty, that the gun grabbing politicians are the same ones that want to control every semblance of our existence; How we raise our children, how healthcare is ‘doled out’, how/when/quality of our retirement, what our standard of living should be, what we watch, what we buy. They are ‘Reverse Robin Hoods’ that take what little money given to us in exchange for our time given from our lives working to make the big bucks for the few, and give to the same masters in the form of subsidies. There is nothing the social engineers have missed. So think about it, you want to take the last semblance of our freedoms, when you want to take our guns.
So here’s some statistics that make the point that statisticians are morons. Go make outlaws out of money hungry doctors and leave us alone.
Doctors:
The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.
Now think about this:
Guns:
The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. Yes, that’s 80 million.
The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.
Statistics courtesy of FBI.
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, “Guns don’t kill people, doctors do.”
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!
Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.
The reason that the constitution says we can have guns is so we can over though a tyranical government.
For those who say abolish the guns, I say welcome to slavery cause there won’t be one damn thing you can do when big brother says for you to get your butt out in the cotton field.
I don’t carry, but I’m glad that others do. Yes, I believe it makes my area safer to live in.
I suspect that most anti-gun people are just simply afraid of guns. If they took the time to learn how to use them, they too would think that people should be allowed to protect themselves.
As for the stats…are you aware that your chances if being killed by your doctor versus guns is 8000 to 1. Think we should outlaw doctors?
#36,
have you ever been so mad, angry or whatever that you would kill someone? Why do you think having a gun would make you any different. The simple truth is most people are not going to atack someone, no matter what tool they have. If you have been willing to kill someone out of anger, please dont own a gun, but don’t place your issues on the rest of us.
Remember, last year 99.995% of guns in America didn’t hurt anyone.
25% more people are killed by cars in the USA than guns (including suicides) every year. Oh great, your a safe driver, you want a car. Hypocrit!
Let’s remember that the right to bear arms is in case the gov’t violates our rights. Clearly, we are at that point, look at the gov’t violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like “America Deceived” from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov’t.
Write in Dr. Ron Paul and save this great country.
Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov’t and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0
You seem to imply there is something wrong if a babykilling abortion mill is burned or bomb. What do you prefer, dead babies or a pile of bricks? Innocent unborn babies deserve to be protected just as born children deserve to be protected. You would have no problem protecting born children if they were about to be murdered.
SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life.
GOOD FOR THEM.How many times can it be said:laws are for the law-abiding.Laws don’t stop criminals.Yadda yadda yadda.
What I DID read was how level-headed the manager was by seeing that the guy was a poor shot,and NOT turning the incident into a TV-show shootout.It just proves that,even in those 1 or 2 seconds,a decision can be made that doesn’t have to end in someone full of holes and/or dead,like SEAN BELL.
I say we ALL should have guns. Teach your children early about guns,how dangerous they are,and gun safety;then they won’t be curious and do something horrible when they see your gun in a shoebox.
The way things are going in the world,this needs to be done sooner than later!
According to the DOJ
# In 2005, U.S. residents age 12 or older experienced approximately 23 million crimes, according to findings from the National Crime Victimization Survey.
— 77% (18.0 million) were property crimes
— 22% (5.2 million) were crimes of violence
— 1% (227,000) were personal thefts.
# In 2005 for every 1,000 persons age 12 or older, there occurred
–1 rape or sexual assault
–1 assault with injury
–3 robberies
# Murders were the least frequent violent victimization — about 6 murder victims per 100,000 persons in 2005.
# Since 1994, violent crime rates have declined, reaching the lowest level ever recorded in 2005.
This despite the sunset law extermination of “important” Anti-gun legislation and an increase in gun ownership.
According to the DOT there were 15.4 deaths caused by vehicles per 100,000 people annually in the US in 2003. Thats almost twice the rate of Gun deaths if you count suicides, and more than three times the rate if you eliminate the successful suicides as other countries do when they count gun deaths. By the logic that the anti-gun lobby uses we should forget about guns for the moment and first deal with the sale and possession of the automobile which is more deadly than guns by far.
Finally lets go into the base absurdity of the argument, “Guns Kill People.” I own several firearms, they sit in a locked gun safe with a trigger lock on them when not in use. Their ammo is stored in a further locked box in the gun safe. According to the statistics, by now one of them should have killed someone given the numbers and types I own and the period of ownership. However, guns being inanimate objects this has yet to happen.
The simple fact of the matter is that it is not the gun, but the person using it that is killing someone. If someone wants to kill another person they will. If not with a gun then with poison, knife, sword, bow and arrow, Rock, or even their own two hands. Blaming the the tool for the actions of the user is the ultimate in idiocy.
From above,
Have you ever been so angry that you wanted to kill someone ? well no actualy.
Most of the Anti Gun types, usually come up with that style of argument, if we all had guns, people would shoot each other over parking spaces, sort of thing.
Of course, what they fail to realise, is that such a line, is merely a representation of their own insecurities, and what they really mean is, nobody should have guns, so that we can all be protected from them.
>>What do you prefer, dead babies or a pile
>>of bricks?
Personally, I prefer you mind your own fucking business.
If you don’t approve of abortions, don’t have one.
Treat guns the same way we do the other daily deadly weapon: cars.
Require training, licensing, and insurance.
It won’t stop idiots and drunks entirely, but we do take guns away from convicted felons, we don’t let drunks drive, and we do require teenagers to have a license.
Simply because other people were allowed to carry guns, the nutjob fled shooting ceiling and a wall only.
If this would have happened in a state where people don’t carry guns, the nutjob would have “won” and I bet there would be at least few dead bodies on the store’s floor.
Gun bans only disarm honest law-abiding people, while they don’t affect criminals and nutjobs.
If anyone wants to kill someone, they don’t need a gun.
Drunk drivers kill many-many-many more innocent people than guns, why do you people argue about less important issues…
This story reminds me of an incident several years ago near seattle, wa. Two cars were on a major busy hwy, someone cut somebody else off, and the situation escalated to road rage. The two vehicles left the hwy and came to a stop close to each other on a side road. The driver of each pulled a handgun and many shots were fired. No serious injuries resulted. One of the shooters was an off-duty police officer. The other was an army officer from the local base. Despite all of the training each had with their weapons and the use of deadly force, their anger overruled their training, and neither hit much of anything in a fairly close exchange of fire. Both felt that he was the one in the right and that the other was in the wrong.
#52
and both were idiots who clearly need anger management.
There was a “funny” road rage case on canadian highway few years ago (I think near Toronto).
They didn’t have guns, but they were throwing items like coffee cups and cellphones at each other.
I’m mentioning it only to show you stupid people don’t need guns to do stupid things or to harm somebody.
Only leftist politically-correct brainwashed whores can believe that banning guns can solve anything.
#54–888==I can understand how someone can be harmed by use of guns. How is someone harmed by coffee cups? How many people per year are hurt by stray coffee cups?
>>How is someone harmed by coffee cups?
Hot coffee, Bobster. Haven’t you heard about the McDonald’s lady who scalded her pussy with hot coffee and sued? And if they are stainless steel thermal commuter cups…dang. Those things could do a lot of damage.
#56
IIRC, “the coffecup road rage” caused quite a stir and some or few accidents on a highway where it happened.
bobbo (the village idiot):
Usually I have no patience for you and your stupidity, but now you are being dumber than usual (have you forgot your meds today or what?)
Throw a coffee cup (even a paper one) full or half-full of coffee, from a speeding car, and see for yourself how easily it can be transformed into weapon.
Lose your guns, lose your freedom.
Everybody is anti-gun until they suddenly need one.
#46, Rev. Spit.
You seem to imply there is something wrong if a babykilling abortion mill is burned or bomb.
I don’t know. What is an “abortion mill”?
What do you prefer, dead babies or a pile of bricks?
Well, I guess most sane people would prefer the pile of bricks. Do you have a point?
Innocent unborn babies deserve to be protected just as born children deserve to be protected.
Oh. So that is where you are headed. Hint, “unborn babies” are correctly called fetuses. They are not babies. They aren’t even a person, yet.
You would have no problem protecting born children if they were about to be murdered.
Very true. I would also try to protect an ignorant asshole too.
SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins.
OK, if you want to be a sinner than I guess you are headed to eternal hell. Your choice. A pretty stupid choice. But still, your choice.
You see Rev. Spit, you church folk do a fine talk all about abortion being so evil. Yet where were you when it was time to educate the woman or girl about sex? Where were you when children should have been taught to use contraception? And where were you when the school board decided to only teach abstinence?
Now around these parts there are a bunch of crazies, mostly fundies, that will provide help to a young pregnant girl. As soon as she delivers though she becomes as welcome as a two week old catfish. One of the congregation will even stand up and proudly state they want to adopt the baby. Unless the baby is only half white. Or has fetal alcohol syndrome. Or some other flaw making her less than perfect. In that case they quietly drop the adoption.
Now you see Rev. Spit, my ma-in-law and a few other in-laws are holy roller fundies. But they have this truly nasty habit I have angrily upbraided them for many times. They always refer to a fetus as AN IT. So instead of asking what is the sex of the unborn child, they will ask “Do ya know what it is yet?” But all the fundies around here talk like that. They don’t have any respect for a fetus.
If you think hard about it, you might realize you don’t have any respect for the fetus either. Or for the mother.
#46, Rev. Spit,
I visited your web site. What bullshit. You post some real nice pictures of babies that weren’t aborted and suggest that this is what all abortions look like.
Simply put, those pictures show full term fetuses. No physician will abort a full term fetus UNLESS there is no choice for the mother’s health.
You’re a sick shit Spit.