By SN
Monday April 28, 2008
New York Times – April 24, 2008:
It was not long after a Methodist church put down roots here that the troubles began.
First came visits from agents of the F.S.B., a successor to the K.G.B., who evidently saw a threat in a few dozen searching souls who liked to huddle in cramped apartments to read the Bible and, perhaps, drink a little tea. Local officials then labeled the church a “sect.” Finally, last month, they shut it down.
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There was a time after the fall of Communism when small Protestant congregations blossomed here in southwestern Russia, when a church was almost as easy to set up as a general store. Today, this industrial region has become emblematic of the suppression of religious freedom under President Vladimir V. Putin.
Just as the government has tightened control over political life, so, too, has it intruded in matters of faith. The Kremlin’s surrogates in many areas have turned the Russian Orthodox Church into a de facto official religion, warding off other Christian denominations that seem to offer the most significant competition for worshipers. They have all but banned proselytizing by Protestants and discouraged Protestant worship through a variety of harassing measures, according to dozens of interviews with government officials and religious leaders across Russia.
This close alliance between the government and the Russian Orthodox Church has become a defining characteristic of Mr. Putin’s tenure, a mutually reinforcing choreography that is usually described here as working “in symphony.”
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Russian Orthodox huh?
When my wife and I traveled by train in Russia, the RO priests would spit on her if she looked at them while walking near them–common to do on a train. They did the same thing in their Churches. Spit perimeter was about 2 feet in the train, and about 5 in church.
Still, a conservative religion is probably good for Russia–who wants liberation theology let loose?
Give em any religion and that will satisfy 98% of the nutbags looking for that type of release.
We have Russian Orthodox here in St. Louis. Not a lot of ’em, but they certainly are an unfriendly bunch. Saying hello does seem to offend somehow….They also tend to put little tiny signs on plain churches out here, but when I see pictures of Russian Orthodox churches on the web they seem quite ornate….funny
#1 ??? They spit on your wife?
I can’t think of anything else to say but barbaric? Under what delusion do they think this is ok? (Was it just ladies they spit at, or men too?)
Any reason why?
#3–Thinker==just women. Good thing my wife just laughed it off. We figured they were just like celibate catholics to the second power–expressly demonstrating their dislike of women.
Course, they might have been upset her dress of prettier than theirs? (as in black robes aren’t a fashion statement?)
Looks like a return of communists shutting down religion.
Hey MikeN, they are not shutting down religion. They are favoring one over the other.
#4 Bobbo
Glad you took it so well. Thats just uncalled for, and kudos to you and your wife. I don’t know if I’d have reacted to calmly. Especially if it happened in the good ‘ol U. S. of A.
#7–Thinker==travel broadens your outlook, lowers your standards, teaches you to take it in stride. I would never argue about wrong change for instance. In Russia?==not speaking the language, no friends, no connections, better pull in the horns.
Gee, sounds like good advice just about all the time. Now, back in the USA, I did get incensed one day in Wash DC when “a diplomat” practically ran my wife down in a parking lot in his car==like she should get out of his way when he is driving. We complained to cops and they said he had immunity. Took a few days for that “rage” to subside. etc.
From the anti-religious tripe I read here, this must be a dream come true for “dvorak.org/blog.”
#9–MGarrett==I am anti-religious and I feel bad for anyone that has religion forced on them. A one religion state cannot fail but force that religion on people. How could that be a dream come true?
bobbo,
You’re Paranoid.
#9 – M Garrett,
When the U.S. finally settles on the correct flavor of Christianity and behaves this way, perhaps you will understand the anti-religious bent of many of us.
I’m going to guess that you are some sect of Christianity, only because flavors of Christianity are the specific subsects of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion (deliberately singular) that seem to want a state approved religion here.
What would you do if the chosen religion for the U.S. is not your particular flavor?
What will you do when either forced to participate in or prevented from participating in the ritual mock-cannibalism of munching on Jesus’ body and drinking his blood? Will you then understand the problems inherent in theocracy? Or, will you take the change in stride and wait to see your neighbors carted off for failure to comply?
The doors to religious tolerance do not open from the inside. (Not original. It’s probably a Dawkins or Sam Harris quote. or, possibly someone else, I can’t remember.)
#5 – MikeN,
Looks like a return of communists shutting down religion.
Sorry, julieb has it right. They’ve picked one this time. If it’s not yours, tough. Why is it that the theocratists in this country do not see that they are setting themselves and millions of others up for disaster? Why does no one see that there are many sects trying to legislate religion in this country? Why does no one see that their own may not be the chosen one?
When Thomas Jefferson explained the first amendment, as its author, as setting up a wall of separation between church and state, he was doing so to reassure a the Danbury Baptists that they would remain free to practice their minority religion.
http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
Freedom of and freedom from religion benefit the religious as much as they benefit atheists and agnostics.
#11–janis==paranoid? More likely just pessimistic.
You tell me. What would you call a totalitarian ex-KGB operative who chooses one religion as the state religion, and starts shutting others down?
I can only quibble about the negative consequences of such activity. Paranoid is about 15th on the list of other attributes I have contemplating such action.
bobbo,
I was specifically referring to your comments about your wife being spit at and almost run down.
I’ve spent a lot of time in Russia and Ukraine and just had a hard time even imagining what you described in your first comment. Then, adding that you were nearly assaulted by a “diplomat” just made me think you felt that certain people were out to get you when maybe they weren’t.
I agree with your sentiments about Russia pushing one religion and shutting down others. That’s not paranoid. That’s real.
#14–janis==describing what has happened to you is not being paranoid, only descriptive. In your eyes, would I be even more paranoid if I tell you I have almost been struck by lightning, actually attacked by a shark, 3-4 dogs, and been in 2-3 car accidents?
Recognizing that into each life a little rain will fall doesn’t describe paranoia.
But I’ll leave you to look it up.
You’re right, bobbo. I shouldn’t have jumped to the paranoid conclusion. Further, just because nothing like that ever happened to me in Russia doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to you.
thats right soon in our country we will rid ourselved of all evil religion. we will start in texas
#16–janis==exactly so. I try to take people and their story’s at face value unless something really is off kilter to begin with. I’m disagreeable enough as it is.
Here in Stary Oskol, 300 miles south of Moscow, the police evicted a Seventh-day Adventist congregation from its meeting hall, forcing it to hold services in a ramshackle home next to a construction site.
I’m not surprised that Adventists are getting a taste of their own medicine, as the Seventh-day Adventist corporation as a whole feels very comfortable with oppressing its own members.
http://everythingimportant.org/dupery
#9 M Garret,
Yeah, that was my knee jerk reaction when I first read this story. But I am a Protestant, and the Russian Orthodox (Russian Catholics?) brook no interfearance. They never had a Vatican II experience.
#8 Bobbo
I understand. 🙂 My wife is Russian, and I’ve learning the language, Да! Я Говорю русского немного. I’m learning the attitudes of Russia and who’s who, and I see that we’re all very caught up in our past. My two trips there have been enjoyable for the vastly most part.
I’ll go back.
Here is the point where one needs to understand other cultures deeper than “they don’t do things like us”… Orthodox communities in general arose from the Church-State of the Byzantine Empire. Most predominantly Orthodox countries followed this model (where the head of state is at the same time head of the Church) until relatively recent history, with Russia entering 20th century in such order. In those states, while some tolerance have been offered for long established “rivals” (Islam, Catholic Church,…) any “new fangled” religion is considered a cult (same as many in USA would see Branch Davidians for example). To make things worse, because of the church-state link these “cults” are automatically seen as an assault on the state itself… There is no need for FGB/KGB to enforce such mindset. In absence of education old ways would yield the same intolerance from the local communities.
#21 – dusan maletic,
Interesting points. One thing though, from doing some research for a post on my blog, I found the following subset of definitions, which may be relevant here.
So, from these it appears that all religions are cults but not all cults are religions. In fact, from these definitions, in my opinion, religion is worse than cult.
>>In fact, from these definitions, in my
>>opinion, religion is worse than cult.
Aw, Scottie. You’re so intolerant. Sure, some religions are worse than cults. You should try out my church, though. Peace, love, and understanding; that’s what we practice and preach.
#23 – Mr. Mustard,
I’m merely pointing out that a cult may not be delusional. It may be just the cult of being selfish, i.e. Objectivism.
In fact, definition 4 of a cult states, “a group or sect bound together by devotion to or veneration of the same thing, person, or ideal.”
This could be people devoted to evolution or Albert Einstein. It may just be a fan club. It doesn’t have to be something as
despicabledelusionalirrational as religion.BTW, your proselytizing of your church does nothing to convince me I’d like it any better than any other.
>>BTW, your proselytizing of your church does
>>nothing to convince me I’d like it any
>>better than any other.
Makes no nevermind to me, Scottie. I’m not trying to push my church on you. I’m merely suggesting that you might find some respite from your anger and bitterness (hey, I know you live in NYC, so I understand it) by attending a church of your choosing.
If not, fine. Just call off the attack dogs that want to rip me limb from limb for being a believer. Although I believe in God and Heaven, I don’t want to end up there by being savaged by adherents to the Church of No God. Gosh!
#25 – MM,
Bullshit in the extreme! It’s called the soft sell and you’ve tried it on me repeatedly. You most certainly do care if I find religion. I have no idea why. It may even be from the best of intentions. But, please stop it. And, until you do, don’t call me intolerant.
Scottie, I couldn’t give a flying fuck whether you find religion or not. And if you think otherwise, you’re suffering from pathological narcissism. I care less about whether you find religion than I care about whether you find a good job in a liveable city. And THAT’S saying something. If you want to live int the Armpit of America, go for it. And if you choose to buuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrnnnnnn in a laaaaaaaaaaaake of fiiiiiiiiiiire, go for that too.
I’m just trying to look out for your best interests. If you reject that, it’s no skin off my nose.
Shubee (#19),
First off I am not a Seventh Day Adventist, but EVERY church, political group, cult (per Misanthropic Scott’s reference above, and Scott you will like they preach separation of church and state..), etc. has differing groups within. Your link is to one man who clearly was more conservative than the church he was attending. Too bad for him, and maybe he should have found a church he liked instead of the approach he took. And wow, paint an entire church based on one experience of one man. That’s like saying that I knew a Democrat who was said something cruel to another Democrat, therefore all Democrats are crap and should rot. You Shubee, are a moran.
My experience with Seventh Day Adventists has been almost entirely positive. It might do you well to actually learn about them. http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/index.html
Oh and btw, Scottie: You’re intolerant. I guess that comes with living in the Armpit of America, eh? 🙂
Adding to my post above. The Seventh Day Adventists also have one of the best relief organizations in the world – http://www.adra.org – and they actual help people without proselytizing. Oh, and it isn’t my opinion about them, here is their independent rating – http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=8078