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2009 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid – First Drive – Tokyo Motor Show – Popular Mechanics — Supposedly will get 80 MPG CITY!! We’ll see. At least it plugs into the wall which means you can visit friends and casually use their power to fill your car. Until they catch on, that is. In the meantime, who would say “no?”
Toyota may be the first to market with a plug-in hybrid electric (PHEV) vehicle. Today, we were briefed on Toyota’s future hybrid and alternative fuel plans. And while there was no official announcement by Yoshitaka Asakura, Project General Manager of Toyota’s Hybrid Vehicle System Engineering Development Division, he mentioned that their plug-in development program was under way and that it may not wait for lithium-ion battery technology to mature.
“Toyota has the knowledge and experience with nickel metal hydride. And we have to use the battery we know best, in terms of overall performance,” said Asakura.
Tip from Doug Wolfgram.
Related link: Ed scooped this last year.
Just Yesterday, VW announced that their new 50- state diesel will be here in June and get 60mpg highway. Their smaller car, the Polo, may come our way as well and gets close to 80 on the highway today. Plus, with all of the money and science going into biofuels, many of which are a 1-1 substitute for diesel, make diesels even more attractive as oil prices rise. Hybrids, with their large price premium and complex technologies will need to post much bigger gains in order to stay in the game.
1st – to update my comment, last year. GM is committed, now, to the Volt Program. There is superb coverage at http://gm-volt.com and it looks like GM is stuck into 2010 and a pricing structure that climbs every month…
2nd – Honda now credits GM/Volt for inspiring what will be their own next-gen plug-in hybrid. They’ll probably beat GM to the asphalt, too – though that may just be my own cynical analysis.
My bet is that there will be Asian lithium-ion batteries ready at production levels ASAP to match American juice.
Meanwhile, GM does have their first Volt prototype in Beta on the streets with Li-Ion battery aboard.
And, yes, I think Toyota will probably do it better and sooner.
tvtodd – I’m as crazy about diesels as thee – BUT, we live in a land where politicians are screwing us to the wall with diesel prices. The cost of production is lower than gasoline. Yet, in most states, you pay a premium of 25% to use diesel fuel.
The only country in the world doing this to consumers BTW.
This past week, we had a husband-and-wife team of truckers downstate arrested by the Border Patrol for driving in to Juarez and filling up on diesel at $2 a gallon – when they should enjoy paying over $4 a gallon this side of the border.
And we know the Border Patrol has nothing else to do. Right?
I love the idea. The problem for me with plug-in hybrids is the same problem as full electric vehicles. I live in Manhattan. I don’t think I can get my garage to plug me in. They’re going to need infrastructure to appropriately charge the owners of each electric or hybrid for charging.
Until then, the plug in is useless or nearly so for me. 🙁
#2 – Eidard,
Isn’t it great that GM can go from a car that got 200 miles on a charge to a car that will get 40 miles to a charge in just 11 short years?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
No wonder those bastards are at junk bond status. May tesla and zap car put ye olde stoopid amerkan car companies out of business … and quickly.
http://tinyurl.com/6na2u9
PEOPLE are CRAZY.
Pluging in a car, with electricity being produced out of Coal and Nuclear for the most part, will do more damage than good on the long run.
Just on the Carbon footprint alone.
Not to mention the loss of distribution (electricity will “leak”, typically 40%, from production to your socket), reinforced infrastructure, and need of building more and more production plants.
In the current state of things, Plug-in cars will be the equivalent of the BioFuel conundrum we’re getting in…
Don’t get me wrong, this will be the future, but maybe not even for my kid, maybe for my grandchildren…
#5 – joaoPT,
Actually, I know it sounds crazy. But, electric motors are about 80% efficient while gasoline motors are only about 15% efficient. So, even if all of the power comes from coal, moving the entire fleet of U.S. cars to full electric vehicles will reduce our fleet’s output of CO2 by a third. That’s huge!
Further, everything is gradual, even if we put a very high priority on it, as we must. If we’re moving the fleet to electric vehicles, we can simultaneously be moving toward better energy sources than coal.
More breakthrus all the time. This one could be major for bio-fuels.
http://www.utexas.edu/news/2008/04/23/biofuel_microbe/
Gas 15% efficient? How come? Where’s the energy going? Heat? Sure, and a lot, but 85%??? really…!!! The numbers smell fishy…
Sorry Toyota. US Electricar beat you to market by 30 years with the Lectric Leopard.
http://www.econogics.com/ev/lepb1.jpg
That’s a late 70’s Renault 5 if I ever saw one…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_5
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/atv.shtml
Only about 15% of the energy from the fuel you put in your tank gets used to move your car down the road or run useful accessories, such as air conditioning. The rest of the energy is lost to engine and driveline inefficiencies and idling. Therefore, the potential to improve fuel efficiency with advanced technologies is enormous.
#10, yes, they were made from Renaults which came from the factory with no engine, and were completed by US Electricar.
#11, I think that chart is something of a worst case. Yes I think about 15% is the correct number, but 17% lost to standby and idling? Thats some nasty trafic. That must be over 1/2 of your time in a car spent idling to waste 17% of your fuel that way.
Fugly!
Highly efficient Diesels, Plug-in hybrids, It’s all good!
What we are now seeing is very, very encouraging. As with any new technology we will see a selection of competing technologies vie for the marketplace, and (usually) the one that works best will win. Back near the turn of the century we went through this very same thing with the Stanley Steamer, numerous electric cars, and gasoline. Gasoline won.
Now we have a realistic set of new choices: electric, electric hybrid, diesel, and gasoline.
The market will readjust and we will be better off for it.
#8, yes the numbers are accurate.
A lot of the energy is wasted as heat (and noise). Think about all the other moving parts in a car which exist only to cool the engine or circulate oil.
The only reason gasoline internal combustion engines have been useful are:
1. the relatively low cost of fuel (which is still true today – compare the cost of a gallon of gas to a gallon of bottled water, then remember the incredible amount of processing that is required to take crude oil out of the ground in saudi, and turn it into gasoline you can put in your car at the gas station).
2. the incredible amount of potential energy in gasoline. Think about it: you put 10 gallons of gas in your car, and you can drive 200 miles at 60mph.
The main problem with an electric engine isn’t “where do we get the electricity from”, it’s “how do we store the electricity in the car”. It’s the battery in the electric car that is the limit. That’s why all the electric cars (ever) built get a maximum range of 60-100 miles. Then they need a 4-8 hour re-charge.
And, unfortunately, it’s not just a matter of making the battery bigger: if you double the number of batteries in an electric car, you don’t get double the range – because you’re wasting most of the energy carrying the batteries around. That’s why even the tiny little electric cars don’t get very good range – half the car is for battery storage.
If (somehow) an electric car could carry the same energy potential as 10 gallons of gas, it would have a 1,000 mile range.
As long as we build more roads then fill them with private vehicles, who cares what powers them. I hope they sell a billion of these.
60 to 100 miles is good enough for me. I pity the fool that has to drive over 100 miles a day.
>> 5 joaoPT said,
>> PEOPLE are CRAZY.
>> Pluging in a car, with electricity being produced out of Coal and Nuclear for the most part, will do more damage than good on the long run.
I’ve wondered this exact thing… but I’ve also heard proponents of the electric car say that electricity is (almost?) going to be less impactful than the internal combustion engine.
Then, of course, there is the fact that coal is domestic — and I so desperately want to extract our country from the middle east and I don’t ever see that happening until we become energy independent.
How likely is it that we could have solar panels on our houses efficient enough to charge our cars?
16–chuck==why can’t we retro fit all freeways with electric strips that could drive/charge the cars as they go motoring around?
that would address all kinds of problems.
I have not seen that proposed anywhere but I think about it as my little racer goes around in circles.
Solar, Hydroelectric, Wind, Waves, the works…It’s steps in the right direction, but they are not enough. They are too unstable and un dependable to work alone. That’s why a coherent electrical grid needs to have dependable 24/24 plants. Traditionally these are Coal and Nuclear. Huge problems here. Coal is “dirty” as it gets, and Nuclear, well, let’s say that residuals with a half life as long as these makes me nervous…no matter what they say.
Also I’m with you with the battery problem: Too heavy, too dangerous. Hydrogen as a Energy transfer medium is also a bit of a let down. It only stores a fraction of the energy of Gasoline, per volume.
That’s why I say this is not for my son’s generation.
In the near term, Mass transport makes more sense. And some sort of public fleet of disposable vehicles you could just pick-up and then let go when not needed (maybe with self returning robotic abilities…) for a small fee…
HAH! Two college guys out of Chicago added battery packs etc to a standard Prius for about $3000 off the shelf parts. Average Mileage around 100 mpg. No details on how the electrics hook into the drive train. Car goes up to 50 miles before needing a charge ((but maybe only 30 or so–it wasn’t clear)).
CNN is such a news site. A 5 minute interview and the boys mentioned they have a website, but it wasn’t mentioned.
The boys want “to make a statement” that if they can do it while in college to the family car–then why can’t GM?” Why not indeed?
#20 – it could work. In my neighborhood we have electric “trolley” buses which connect to overhead wires. But they won’t work on steep hills (which is why they have street cars in San Fran).
But most freeways don’t have steep inclines, so that’s not really the problem.
I think the trick part is the massive public expense of retro-fitting the freeways – overhead wires would be cheaper. It works for high-speed electric trains.
One major drawback: how do you pass the car in front of you?
I’m from Detroit so I am the only one to have an intelligent opinion on this:
Detroit needs to come out with the Flinstone-mobile
…the green way to lose pounds!
I’m from Detroit so I am the only one who can offer an expert opinion:
Introducing…
the Flinstone-mobile
…the green way to drive and lose pounds!
#23–chuck==I’m thinking some kind of induction system buried in the pavement with cars picking it up magnetically. But in all cases, the whole idea is that the electric cars could run on batteries to make lanes changes or go off grid to go shopping or parking etc.
How many people drive more than 50 miles per day and not use a freeway?
Note that same highway could be mixed use==all electric, hybrid, all gas, diesel, hydrogen, or flintstone.
This avoid expense/pollution of battery technology and time wasted charging etc.
Its my own idea, never seen it discussed.
Wow. An article only six months and three days old. Lipstick applied to make it look like new news.
What was the angle here that made this newer and bloggier?
#19 – GregAllen,
How likely is it that we could have solar panels on our houses efficient enough to charge our cars?
Solar panels on houses will be a huge help. However, the real places to keep your eyes open are on concentrated solar and solar thermal to heat water before putting it into a conventional power plant, dramatically increasing its efficiency.
Also, watch for computer controls that allow for the car batteries to be charged only at night bby power plants that would otherwise be turned off. Then, while parked during the day, they give back the power dramatically reducing peak load for the power plants. This smoothing out of our power usage along can be a huge factor in reducing the number of power plants we need of any kind.
#11 – Jim,
Thanks for confirming the 15% and for an excellent diagram of where the energy from all that gasoline really goes.
We should also try to keep in mind that when our cars weigh 3,000 – 10,000 lbs, most of the energy is also in moving the car rather than moving us.
My 1987 camry weighed 2,700 lbs. My ’91 weighed 3,000. My current ’92 weights 3,300 and has a larger engine. I liked the ’87 best of the bunch. It was large enough for my needs, held 5 adults, and all the luggage I ever needed to carry. It also got around 40 mpg on the highway. My ’92 gets 32 mpg in the same conditions. Both numbers are significantly higher than EPA ratings. I miss the 40 mpg a lot though.
So now people are proposing that you have a car for everyday use, and get a rental for long trips. Oh goody. 50 miles in one day isn’t that hard, or even 100.