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John Ashcroft recently visited Knox College, giving a speech on “Leadership in Troubled Times”. One of the students asked him about a waterboarding case from WWII, where a U.S. war tribunal condemned a Japanese soldier for employing this technique on U.S. soldiers. |
John Ashcroft Yelled at Me Tonight. No Joke – Daily Kos:
…It will be, sir, just give me a moment. The judgement describes this water treatment, and I quote, “the victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach.” One man, Yukio Asano, was sentenced to fifteen years hard labour by the allies for waterboarding American troops to obtain information. Since Yukio Asano was trying to get information to help defend his country–exactly what you, Mr. Ashcroft, say is acceptable for Americans to do–do you believe that his sentence was unjust? boisterous applause and shouts of “Good question”
ASHCROFT: (angrily) Now, listen here. You’re comparing apples and oranges, apples and oranges. We don’t do anything like what you described.
ME: I’m sorry, I was under the impression that we still use the method of putting a cloth over someone’s face and pouring water down their throat…
ASHCROFT: (interrupting, red-faced, shouting) Pouring, Pouring, Did you hear what she said? “Putting a cloth over someone’s face and pouring water on them.” That’s not what you said before. Read that again, what you said before
ME: Sir, other reports of the time say…
ASHCROFT: (shouting) Read what you said before (cries of “Answer her #ucking question” from the audience) Read it
ME: (firmly) Mr. Ashcroft, please answer the question.
ASHCROFT: (shouting) Read it back
ME: “The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach.”
ASHCROFT: (shouting) You hear that? You hear it? “Forced” If you cant tell the difference between forcing and pouring…does this college have an anatomy class? If you cant tell the difference between forcing and pouring…
ME: (firmly and loudly) Mr. Ashcroft, do you believe that Yukio Asano’s sentence was unjust? Answer the question. (pause)
ASHCROFT: (more restrained) Its not a fair question; there’s no comparison. Next question
Well, how can a bound person prevent water from entering their throat if someone is pouring it over their face?
You can only hold your breath for so long.
I think he’s right. The Japanese water treatment made people unconscious when they poured water down people’s throats. I’m not sure that they are actually pouring things into people’s mouth here, just on their face, and with the towel it feels like you are drowning. Then again, the same thing happened during WWII as well.
TO: all the Jack Bauer wannabes:
How many of you have talked with (former) intelligence agents?
J/P=?
Like it says, apples & oranges. Being from DailyKooks doesn’t help the case.
#2 – Yes, I thought the same thing because of the ‘source’. Still, it’s worth a read.
According to friends who went through the Military’s Survival School, the people who went through waterboarding, were in an inclined position, with their head down. Their lungs were higher than their mouth, so there is no way they can drown. It is not the same as what is described by the questioner.
There are a lot of people that dislike the President, some to the point of hating him and making him out a the devil. But they pull out facts or hearsay, twist it around, and try to embarrass anyone associated with his administration. And if anyone tries to point out any differences, you are automatically attacked, or made out as a mindless idiot.
If either Clinton or McCain are elected, I see this continuing for another 4+ years. I may not agree with Obama’s views, but it might be the only way to get off this mud slinging merry-go-round
Holy Rollers don’t like being reminded that they are hypocrites. No big surprise here.
It sounds like Asscroft has a conscience and the facts are getting to him.We are going to watch Bushie after Bushie go through this kind of moral hell after they leave office.It is the price you pay for going along with this kind of thinking.Sometimes it is just that simple torture is wrong in all cases no matter what the results are.
The Japanese used to force water down the prisoner throats with a pipe and fill their stomachs with water until the malnutrition prisoner looked like they have a basketball stuck in their bellies. Then they used to jump on their bellies…or worse yet, bayonet their bellies.
Where is the video?
So what I am hearing here, is a little bit of torture is OK?
Who then draws the line, when just a little bit more will help. I agree billabong, sounds like somebody struck a nerve in Asscroft.
I have personally “worked” with Mr. Kos on a professional basis…cough-cough. I would treat this “source” with a boulder of salt.
Even worse is when people claim the US is violating the Geneva Conventions. She isn’t.
Considering U.S. government attorneys decided we can do anything short of organ failure and death, that leaves a LOT of torture room.
I’m ashamed of all the people involved in this and how it makes my country look. History will NOT look kindly on this.
Just because it makes you safe (or THINK it makes us safe) isn’t good enough. The ends don’t justify the means. Being “good” people means we’re in more danger than the mad dictators of the world, and I’m ok with that.
I want my country back!
#15 – Right on…
#15 – “I want my country back!” Which part?
So if it comes from Daily KOS, it can’t be trusted.
What source do you trust?
Apparently the distinction is between having an apple forced down your throat, versus an orange.
In 2000, Ashcroft was a well-meaning dweb who’d recently lost reelection to Congress. As AG he was supposed to spend his time making speeches about child pornography whil prosecuting medicinal uses of marijuana. Fate stepped in – after 9/11 he had serious issues on his plate and he was in over his head.
He isn’t sophisticated enough to effectively defend these sadistic police-state tactics with legal obfuscation and that’s the big reason he was replaced with Gonzalez.
A non-story. Ashcroft shouts over the boors. The author gets to spin hers as being “firm” and walks away delighted to be “enjoying being a campus hero.” Ashcroft gets “a standing ovation from the townies.”
RBG
So is it okay to waterboard captured americans? That’s what people want to hear an answer to.
#19 – jimh,
Don’t forget, Ashcroft did not just lose an election, he lost the election to A DEAD MAN !!!
Imagine, fewer qualifications for office than a CORPSE !!! Ashcroft should go back to what he knows – BRAINSWAHING KIDS WITH RELIGIOUS FABLES !!!
#19–Jim h==best understanding of the issue posted in a while. Kudos.
Nobody is “for” torture. Its only justification is to get information.
Still, if Japanese Waterboarding is with lungs below stomach and water poured/forced until drowning happens that is different than lungs above stomach and only the perceived threat of drowning?
Don’t let labels confuse your thinking==there’s still much to disagree with after whats being talked about is agreed on.
#6 – “the people who went through waterboarding, were in an inclined position, with their head down. Their lungs were higher than their mouth, so there is no way they can drown.”
See? It’s not torture. It’s swirleys!
Also, to be completely fair to the Bush administration, it’s damn hot in those windowless cells. Being bound and gagged and blindfolded, I’d reckon a person would feel a bit like a stuffed ham in an oven. A few buckets of water over their heads would be a refreshing spritz.
#6, well said.
In my fantasy world, Pelosi and the Dems are not prosecuting Bush & Co because he’ll just pardon everybody, anyway.
Instead, they are holding their horse, to investigate, prosecute and jail the criminals after a Dem becomes president.
I said it was a fantasy…
I’m sure there’s a lot of people that would have done more than pour water down Kalid Sheik Mohmanned’s mouth and throat. I can think of a torture that Vlad Dracula had that may have been appropriate for him.
You have to read the full description of the procedure to understand the difference:
The guest is then secured whilst the purest waters are gently ladled through no less than three silk screens into their waiting mouths.
You see? Not the same thing at all!
The word for the position should be “supine,” not “prone.” Ol’ Asscrock could weasel out with his answers because folks refuse to learn & use the right terminology.
Who is billabong? Do I have a troll on DU?
Did no one else see the typo? “Waterbording”? Did I not get the memo that we’re all ignoring it?
Do you know what it would take to get me to vote for Clinton or Obama? Waterboarding.
#34–Kev==we’ll add your name to the list agreeing it is effective.