I walk into the house an hour ago – make a cup of tea – click on the TV and sit down to check out the day’s news. And this is what I see:
A person who shot 13 people Thursday at Northern Illinois University’s DeKalb campus outside Chicago has died, local reports said.
Most of the 13 wounded were shot in the head, said Theresa Comitas, spokeswoman for Kishwaukee Community Hospital, located about 10 minutes from the school…
A woman named Corrine described the scene to CLTV, saying she was “carried out” of Cole Hall by a “wave” of students running for their lives.
“When one of the kids said, ‘This guy is shooting!’ I just ran to the next building as fast as I could and hid in an empty classroom.”
You’ll get to see all the details, the final body count, on TV, tonight. All the “analysis” over the next week.
#88 Phillep
“J, I know ardent gun grabbers who are members of the NRA, it’s called “keeping track of the enemy”.”
Yeah and????? I am not one of them. I think people should have the right to own and posses guns even concealed. As long as they follow the laws and meat the requirements.
“You call it all propaganda? Hah. You and Fat Mike”
Why yes I do. A lot of the stuff they get behind has more to do with political agendas and less to do with protecting the first amendment.
“Anyone who confuses sexuality with firearm ownership has problems. ”
I’m not the one confused. There are a lot of people who own guns because they feel it makes them more manly. Not all mind you but a lot. You can usually spot them because they like to talk about their guns all the time and shooting them gets them excited. I am sure you know the type.
#89 three headed kitty
“Here’s yet another piece of bonehead Logic-Free Reasoning®™:”
I would be careful and have DU remove that unless you really do have the registration to the phrase. It is illegal to use the ® symbol unless the mark is federally registered for the products or services it is used on.
“The word ‘what’ makes that a question………”
When you have lost a debate attack grammar and spelling. Well you got me I have terrible grammar and terrible spelling when typing on a blog.
“In answer, no one thinks the average citizen IS trained. By definition, a citizen with a CC permit is NOT an “average citizen.””
Semantics. You know I meant the average citizen that has a permit to carry a concealed handgun.
“A licensed carrier is specifically trained, not to balance a ball on the end of his or her nose, but to deal with the SPECIFIC ISSUES INVOLVED WITH CARRYING AND USING A LOADED PISTOL.”
Yes! EVERYDAY situations or situations that they have a high probability to encounter. But it isn’t an everyday situation when someone decides to shoot up a school. Even if it seems that way lately.
“Despite your idiotic implied caricature, they are not handed a gun, told “hide it” and pushed out the door. ”
I never implied any such thing. There you go reading with those special glasses of yours.
“They are instructed to remain calm, to not draw attention, to suppress their startle reflex, to be absolutely certain that a threat necessitating a potentially lethal response is present, to be alert for opportunities to nullify the threat without precipitating a firefight, to quickly relinquish their weapon and identify themselves upon the arrival of law enforcement on the scene.”
Well the instruction varies from state to state where it is legal. They still don’t receive the special training that most police department think is necessary for their own S.W.A.T. units in the event of a killing spree type of environment.
Besides you are either being dishonest or are completely uninformed. In your own state of TEXAS it only requires 10 hours? You think 10 hours is enough training for someone to participate in a killing spree shoot out?
“They are also instructed in how to calmly and without presenting a danger to others present, use their weapon to conclusively nullify the threat presented by the bad actor.”
Have you ever taken one of those courses? LOL you are such a DOLT! Yeah it’s 10 hours of intense urban combat training. LOL That’s what we need more people with 10 hours of CC training thinking they are the next RAMBO
“And you may be shocked to note that on the thankfully rare occasions that concealed-carriers actually use their weapons, they are never gunned down by law enforcement mistaking them for the perp, they do not accidentally shoot innocent bystanders, they do not mistakenly shoot innocent persons mistaken for the perp.”
I want to give you a chance to retract some of that before I pull out a can of whoop-ass and embarrass you.
“No it wouldn’t, you colossal imbecile. We know that it would not, since it has PLAYED OUT IN THE REAL WORLD”
What once maybe twice in a situation like the ones at VT or Northern? Name them please.
“and the absurd scenario you paint HAS NOT COME TO PASS. ”
That’s because school shooting sprees don’t happen all but once every couple of years and when they do no one is armed but the perps.
#90 Thomas
“If the victims been SWAT team members would the death toll would have been less?”
Maybe but not for certain. It could be less if it were regular people with sling shots too. That isn’t the point! God when will you people understand this? The issue isn’t guns. More guns or less guns. It doesn’t matter! Nether taking guns away or adding more guns to the mix will solve situations like this. That is because the problem ISN”T guns. It is our culture!!!!!!!!!!!
“More people that are better trained with guns would have resulted in a lower death toll than the situation that did occur where everyone was unarmed.”
Not necessarily. Maybe. Depends on too many variables to say for certain. If I had my choice I would say yes give me a group of S.W.A.T. members and I think the situation would LIKELY be better contained. But shit happens. People make mistakes. Sometime they are just very unlucky.
“Yes, I think that more people should be permitted to carry guns but I also think that the training required to maintain ownership and authority to carry those weapons should be substantially increased. ”
Well I agree with the second part. Don’t get me wrong I think it is fine that people carry concealed guns as long as they are tested regularly for mental defect and proper usage and handling Also, if they don’t have a criminal record.
How is that not fair? Or better yet how is that a violation of the 2nd amendment?
“Wow. Hard to know what to say in the face of such bold ignorance. I could of course bring up the thousands of woman that are raped every year or the number of aggravated assaults that occur but in the face of that kind of ignorance I doubt it will help. Basically, you want everyone to be defenseless except for the State.”
Whoa hang on a minute!!!! I don’t want people to give up their guns. All I meant by shit happens is…..You can only stop so much and at a certain point things are just going to happen or not. Not that we shouldn’t try to make things safer I just don’t think adding more guns to a system that is already shaky is the answer. Solving the problems that lead to crime would be a much better place to start and in my opinion more effective than pouring fuel into the inferno.
“However, the do provide another means by which a person can defend themselves or prevent a violent crime without the assistance of the police.”
So can many other methods of protection.
#92 the three headed kitty
“The per capita first-degree murder rate in the United States, post-WWII, was at it’s lowest in history, and stayed low until the mid-’60s, where it took off. And the rise in murders overall from ‘64 on disguises the fact that second- and third-degree murder was actually declining; the number of deliberate, premeditated murders, first-degree, climbed precipitously from that point onward.”
Thank you for adding proof to my point. The issue ISN’T guns. It is our culture of fear. If you had bothered to read my posts without your special glasses you would have seen that.
“The per capita first-degree murder rate in the United States, post-WWII, was at it’s lowest in history…….BLA BLA BLA”
Not that I need to defend my statement. but here is what Phillep said
“J, back before 1968, anyone at all could buy a machine gun and have it delivered by the USPS. People could, and did, buy milsurp fighter planes, complete with machine guns. Tanks, complete with machine guns and cannons. Warships, likewise. Ammo for all of them was easily obtained, as were bombs.
Where were all the murders? Where were all the massacres? ”
As if the inability to purchase a tank was the reason for the increase in homicide. How crazy are you? There were people murder all the time with handguns before 1968. 4.6 per 100,000 in 1950. I live in Chicago. I can tell you of several mass killings that took place here with guns before 1968 and before WW II back in grandpa days.
So did you have a point with all that unrelated nonsense our were you just trying to look like you know something?
Once again GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM NOR ARE THEY THE SOLUTION. Fixing the problems in society is the most important step. Many other things too but starting with the causes of the problem in the first place is where we should focus
Why do you have such an objection to that thinking? Is it that you just want to own a gun so you feel like a man? Well go ahead! I think if you need that then great go out and buy one as but be responsible. I would hope that you yourself would get a psychological exam first but if it isn’t required you go out and get that six shooter TEX!!! yahoo!
I support the 2nd amendment fully but just like the 1st amendment there are limits.
“Is our society falling apart altogether?”
Actually no just the reporting is better than 100~200 years ago.
Imagine living 100~200 years ago – how many shootings and violent crimes just went unreported? In addition, if they were reported did the entire nation know about it? Not likely
Cheers
#96 TIHZ_HO
Very good point. Although, I do think there is are societal issues that are leading to these killing sprees.
I am not a gun advocate. Removing guns from society only treats the symptom and not the cause of the violence.
The violence inherit in society does not come from guns – look at the Swiss.
Treat the reasons why people are moved to such acts of violence.
If the US does wish to remove guns from society then change the constitution as it and the US founding fathers were very clear on the subject.
So lock and load or change the constitution – it is what it is.
Cheers
#98 TIHZ_HO
I don’t think you and I could agree more on this topic.
#97 Perhaps. Psychotropic Drugs & Gun Free Zones Again The Cocktail For A Killer
http://tinyurl.com/2bsnk7
Perhaps NOT!!!
#98 – Don’t mess with the Bill of Rights.
#100 Stars & Bars
If you want to be taken seriously you really should avoid posting links to an Alex Jones site. He is completely off his rocker and has been ever since I have first seen him on the local Austin cable channel. I think now he is running around saying he predicted 9/11. Yeah, ok Nostradamus. lol
Just in case you are not aware the use of psychotropic drug is a societal issue. I am not talking about casual use I am talking about clinical use. However, they idea that these things take place in gun free zones because they are gun free is just non-sense. Did you ever think that maybe it is because it is the environment that the killers know most recently or have a history at? Perhaps it is because schools provide a predictable pattern of gathering and movement that a loon can follow according to the class schedule.
For every shooting at a gun free zone I could provide you 100 that take place in non gun free zones so the whole premise is absolute non-sense and a political agenda.
Like I have said before anyone who wants to make this about guns, whether it is to take them away or to add more to the mix, has an agenda!
Everyone needs to stop wanting to think they are Rambo and realize this is a problem that could be reduced if not eliminated if you fix the problem. not the symptom.
For all you idiots who want to keep saying that this happened because of “gun-free” zones.
Explain to us all the Bath School disaster back in 1927. There were no “gun-free” zones back then yet it still took place at a school. Hum? I wonder why? Wow and it took place before 1968 too. Isn’t that amazing. You can take you head out of your ass now three headed kitty.
Oh the same goes for all those that want to take guns away too. He used guns, pyrotal, dynamite and a club!!!!!
No matter what we take away they will find a way. We need to get to the root of the problem. The problem that causes then allows people to act out these type of behaviors.
If everyone would just get their head out of their proverbial asses and look at the REAL problem.
“Oh well that would be too difficult to fix. It is much easier to ban or promote guns” DOLTS! Just like a typical American. Take the easy way out.
#98–Tihz==I’m disappointed in your post. Its not “obvious” so I cant suggest a muligan. You know, human psychology is difficult enough before it gets wrapped up into society, culture, and history.
Its multi-factorial.
Outside some simple mechanical and chemical reactions, its very difficult to prove and therefore to think that A causes B. The most you can hope for is that A contributes to B absent the presence of C and so forth.
Anyone spouting off like J is simply an advocate for who knows what reason rather than a keen observer of life. You shouldn’t encourage those types with simplistic causality.
Bobbo
Blow it out your ass! You don’t even know what you are talking about and this statement proves it.
“You know, human psychology is difficult enough before it gets wrapped up into society, culture, and history.”
Human Psychology is neatly intertwined with society, culture, and history. In fact there is a whole branch of Psychology that studies just those issues.
So please STFU when you feel like blovating on an issue you have nothing more the a media knowledge of.
The reason I have status in life and you are stuck in middle management or some other middle class position is because “I” am a very keen observer of human nature. That is how I profit!!
I am not an advocate of anything involving guns and if you could read beyond a 2n grade level you would know that.
I do not advocate taking guns away and I do not advocate putting more into the hands of yahoo rambo types who think they can solve every problem if only they had more guns.
#104–Now J, what this fascination of yours with asses? You need to be turned around and face your fears straightforwardly.
#105 bobbo
Is that your best shot? You realize you are on the losing side of an argument so you make ad hominem attacks?
Can’t blame you because you have your lips so close to your Hero the three headed kitty’s ass that your brains have almost merged.
#106–Now J, whats this fascination of yours with asses and the 3HC? With your expertise in human behavior, you should have several theories you are testing out? Could you share one or two with us?
#107 bobbo
Would you like me to expound on asses, lips, and breasts and the biological effect they have on us? Or would you like me to discuss the use in language relating to the buttocks and how it came to be in our vernacular and it’s origin of disrespect it delivers?
Now as far as fascination. Asses? Yes. A human buttocks is a fascinating thing. Take an anatomy class and you would realize that.
the three headed kitty however, is done a compliment to even be mentioned in the same sentence as a human buttocks.
I don’t think that is related to the killing spree type killer but you seem to want to focus on it because I use it a written insult. Who has the issues with asses?
Nice try bobbo but I am not gay and I am not a homophobe and it doesn’t even brush me with any insult. I can and do look at certain men and say “that is a dam handsome man” You know like George Clooney or Bradley Pitt.
pedro – I would agree with you and gq in many cases, but not this one. As I’m sure you know by now, this was a seriously mentally ill person who did just fine as long as he took his meds. But he stopped taking them. Mental health care is also something this country is ignoring, and here’s another fine example of what kind of events neglecting the crazy can directly cause.
#49, THC,
I am not responsible for the dumb or irresponsible behavior of others; I resent being lumped in with the idiots and being presumed incompetent.
Good point. Then how do we differentiate between the sensible people and the not so sensible? Hey, just because you are sensible today does not mean you will still be sensible tomorrow. It might also be that you are really fooling me and are totally nonsensible.
As many guns as exist in America today, nothing will stop a criminal from getting one and using it if he so desires. I do not accept a law that stops only NON-CRIMINALS from having them and transforms those otherwise law-abiding citizens concerned with their personal safety in criminals.
Another good point. Then we need to get those guns off the streets. What good are programs that remove guns from the streets when the police turn around and sell those guns again to wholesalers?
Ban all hand guns.
Forbidding carrying licensed concealed weapons has NOT SAVED ONE LIFE. But it HAS COST LIVES, no one knows how many.
How do you know that? I have yet to see any valid statistics to back that up. As with most “prove a negative” arguments, that is a pretty silly statement.
#69, Philleep,
John Lott and Gary Kleck put the high end of self defense uses, not just killings, at 2.5 million per year.
Lott pulled those numbers out of his ass. They have never been backed up or replicated in other studies.
#84, Philleep,
J, back before 1968, anyone at all could buy a machine gun and have it delivered by the USPS. People could, and did, buy milsurp fighter planes, complete with machine guns. Tanks, complete with machine guns and cannons. Warships, likewise. Ammo for all of them was easily obtained, as were bombs.
Bullshit. The military has never sold surplus munitions except to licensed operators and approved countries. Although many artillery pieces, for example, were sold to local military organizations, they were always spiked first so they could not be used even inadvertently. I am unaware of the military ever selling ammunition of any caliber Bombs definitely have never been sold to the public.
Almost all surplus munitions end up as scrap. Which is unfortunate as there are a lot of M1s that would have made excellent hunting weapons.
#92, THC
The per capita first-degree murder rate in the United States, post-WWII, was at it’s lowest in history, and stayed low until the mid-’60s, where it took off. And the rise in murders overall from ‘64 on disguises the fact that second- and third-degree murder was actually declining; the number of deliberate, premeditated murders, first-degree, climbed precipitously from that point onward.
Ahh, the advantage of creative bullshit. How one may just invent some number or claim and throw it out there waiting to clobber some unsuspecting, but honest, fool. From the following chart, you can easily see the lowest rates were until 1904. I wish I could present them in a better format.
Year Homicide Rate
1900 1.2
1901 1.2
1902 1.2
1903 1.1
1904 1.3
1905 2.1
1906 3.9
1907 4.9
1908 4.8
1909 4.2
1910 4.6
1911 5.5
1912 5.4
1913 6.1
1914 6.2
1915 5.9
1916 6.3
1917 6.9
1918 6.5
1919 7.2
1920 6.8
1921 8.1
1922 8.0
1923 7.8
1924 8.1
1925 8.3
1926 8.4
1927 8.4
1928 8.6
1929 8.4
1930 8.8
1931 9.2
1932 9.0
1933 9.7
1934 9.5
1935 8.3
1936 8.0
1937 7.6
1938 6.8
1939 6.4
1940 6.3
1941 6.0
1942 5.9
1943 5.1
1944 5.0
1945 5.7
1946 6.4
1947 6.1
1948 5.9
1949 5.4
1950 5.3
1951 4.9
1952 5.2
1953 4.8
1954 4.8
1955 4.5
1956 4.6
1957 4.5
1958 4.5
1959 4.6
1960 4.7
1961 4.7
1962 4.8
1963 4.9
1964 5.1
1965 5.5
1966 5.9
1967 6.8
1968 7.3
1969 7.7
1970 8.3
1971 9.1
1972 9.4
1973 9.7
1974 10.
1975 9.9
1976 9.0
1977 9.1
1978 9.2
1979 10.
1980 10.
1981 10.
1982 9.6
1983 8.6
1984 8.4
1985 8.4
1986 9.0
1987 8.7
1988 9.0
1989 9.3
1990 10.
1991 10.
1992 10.
1993 10.
1994 9.6
1995 8.7
1996 7.9
1997 7.4
1998 6.8
1999 6.2
2000 6.1
2001 *7.1
2002 6.1
*- includes 9/11 terrorist attacks.
Source: National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), Vital Statistics
NOTE, the NCHS statistics are usually slightly different from the FBI statistics because of account differences.
See also BOJ figures.
#3 is right. We don’t need gun control laws, we need to beat our kids more.