It could be me, but I should think this is a pretty easy question to answer especially for a lawyer — Brigadier General no less — advising Gitmo on legal matters related to torture at a hearing on torture where he’s called as an expert. If Bush & Co. believe waterboarding is not torture when we do it, then the answer should be obvious.
“If it quacks like a duck…”
“Irrelevant! We don’t WANT it to be a duck.”
And on a vaguely related note…
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Sen. Lindsey Graham asked a brilliant question and makes the Guantanamo Bay Legal Adviser (Brig. Gen. Thomas Hartmann) appear dishonest and a willful Bush puppet.
What we do is called “waterboarding”; which sounds kinda’ fun. You know, like “boogie boarding” or “snow boarding”.
What hostile enemies do is “near-drowning torture”.
I don’t know if this guy should be drummed out of the military or the legal profession but it appears, both would be transparently appropriate.
Basically, yes. Bush has relegated the US to have no higher ethics and standards as any other country so mission accomplished.
I would have said “Hell yes that Iranian waterboarding is torture.”
On the followup question I would aver that the swimming safety program that the GOUSA engages in is not the same thing. We do it better than the Iranians. Who could disagree with that and not reveal themselves as part of the axis of evil?
As the US is in the midst of its presidential election what better time to see what the US fore fathers thought about these topical issues. After all their opinions, as architects of the United States of American, must carry more weight than mine.
Sure sounds like the present day US Congress.
How true – and again, seems like it has been written for today.
Makes you wonder if any of the US founding fathers were to run in this presidential election would they even got a nomination?
Cheers
This innate desire to have our cake and eat it too causes all sorts of problems, not the least of which is obesity đ
Lindsey Graham is to be commended.
IMO, waterboarding is torture and should be eliminated. However, not everything the liberals want to call “torture” truly warrants that title. Per previous discussions, sleep deprivation comes to mind as not being torture in IMO and yes I’m sure that our enemies use that and worse on Americans.
Regarding the link about the film “Taxi to the Dark Side”, I know I would want to see it even if I felt the premise was manufactured just to see a different point of view. However, claiming that “What Discovery is doing is tantamount to political censorship.” is nonsense. Discovery is not a public organization. They are at liberty to show or refuse what they wish. It is also nonsense to claim that torture is ineffective. Unethical and debasing? Yes. Completely ineffective? If that were true, everyone would have stopped using it centuries ago.
OK, because I am reminded of it==had to go to a special briefing in survival school when I said that I thought I would break under torture and not be able to just stick to name, rank, and serial number (a la John McCain). The briefing broke down a bit when on stern questioning I said “Look, if you want me to tell you that I will never break under torture and that name, rank, and serial number only will give me the strength to remain silent==ok, thats what I’m telling you. Just please don’t torture me.” One guy started laughing, the others were in shock at his actions. He was probably tortured after I left the room.
Effective? Yes, in VERY limited cases. Why is it still used? Because people get bored and love to have power over other people. Nothing to do with getting information.
The use of torture completes the humiliation of America accomplished by Bush’s people. We’re now the most hated nation in the world, respected by no one, with no principles or ideals other than our own prosperity and safety.
“Mission Accomplished” sums it up perfectly.
#10 jim h
Well not not the “prosperity and safety” bit but everything else âMission Accomplishedâ!
Cheers
At survival school/POW training the lesson I got was – you WILL break.
Anyone with half a brain knows that.
Water boarding is only ONE of many unspeakable things that could happen to you.
By the way – for all you ‘armchair policy pundits’ Sleep deprivation IS torture… have a pro try it out on you and you’ll soon see!
I can’t get a straight answer out of this guy since my waterboard broke.
If we change the name to HydroTherapyâ˘, we’ll fool everyone for another 2 or 3 years. While we’re at it, let’s start calling our detention camps “spas” until the next administration takes office.
We don’t need new techniques, only new wordsmiths to describe them.
#14: Yes, and since some TV-Shopping-crap manufacturer probably already owns a product under that name, the Guvmint will be mired in years and years of legal disputes for trying to encroach on an already-existing TM, which provides an excellent distraction for even longer…
If they’ll use waterboarding as an alternative to:
cutting off their heads
pulling out their eyes
shooting them in the knees (etc.)
attaching electrical prods to their genitals
slitting open their eyelids and staking them in the sun
cutting off fingers
yanking out fingernails and teeth
beatings in general
I’d say hell yes. In fact, I’d go as far as have the enemy drape women’s underwear over the heads of any of our captured troops too, harsh as that might sound to you wusses.
You really should keep in mind that 21st century political correctness will never win against 9th century barbarism. And please realize that bringing America back to the age in which it was “respected” before Bush 43 means the age in which Americans were kidnapped, killed, and buildings both here and abroad were blown up. Fear is much more effective than respect in the world arena.
What hardedge fails to point out is that Americans are still kidnapped and killed and buildings both here and abroad are still (or will be) blown up, even given our propensity for waterboarding and other forms of torture.
All that we’ve accomplished is to justify the actions of terrorists by acting like them. Oh, and alienating ourselves from the rest of the civilized world. (No doubt, hardedge would say “screw ’em”).
Freedom has always had its costs, and those costs aren’t cheap. Go back to your fifth grade history book and do some reading — and get over your redneck Rambo ideologies.
#16
Have you been through it? Fear is more effective then respect? For what purpose I wonder? Control, maybe? Hmmm…
To each their own I suppose.
Fear also has a few unintended consequences, one of which is that it sometimes motivates others to do whatever it takes to topple you. I’d rather be respected than feared.
#16, Our 9th-century barbarism won’t win against their 9th-century barbarism.
And respect will turn out to me much more productive than fear.
Sure, before Bush Americans were kidnapped, killed and tortured, BUT if you compare us to the rest of the world, per capita we were less victimized than the vast majority. And you what I think was the cause? Liberty and the Rule of Law. The 230+ year experiment with Democracy and Freedom is risky and occasionally you pay the price, but you know what? the price is lower than the price of authoritarianism. By giving up freedom for *temproary* security we lose our freedom AND become less safe.
Brons
Vox Libertas
Neocons hate Lindsey Graham because they believe he isn’t “conservative enough” (aka, he doesn’t approve of war, torture, deficit spending).
The rationale of the neocon communists is that if the terrorists torture, we should too.
There’s a reason why they’re called terrorists and we aren’t….because we are not supposed to torture.
Just further to my earlier post in #16, maybe I should mention I support JohnâTorture Me Hardâ McCain .
I also had a small penis. Oopps, maybe I should point out I don’t have a penis. They wacked it off when I had my (cough cough) life style change. But it was small so I would dream about torture to make it bigger.
And the 9th Century was a really fun times when girls got to wear those iron panties over their privates. They could be a pain during your âdirty timeâ, but they kept the cooties down. What red blooded 9th Century American wouldn’t want to be tortured with a pair of them on their head?
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