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CBS News – February 7, 2008:
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The woman, who spent a day behind bars, was strip-searched and forced to sign a false confession before being released, the newspaper said. The Times declined to publish her name at her request.
She sat with a male colleague in the Starbucks’ family area, the only place women are allowed to sit with men.
“Some men came up to us with very long beards and white dresses. They asked ‘Why are you here together?’ I explained about the power being out in our office. They got very angry and told me what I was doing was a great sin,” she told the Times.
A U.S. official told The Times that it was being treated as “an internal Saudi matter” and refused to comment on her case.
The problem is that George Bush declared war on the wrong arab country.
No Iraqis crashed planes into US targets on 9/11, it was Saudis.
In a just world, US troops would be in Rihad, and you could buy McRiblets in Mecca.
Just my 2 cents, I could be wrong.
PIGFUCKERS!
Right. You think people hate us now, just wait until a non-Muslim US soldier steps into Mecca. Oi gevalt. It’s like Hamas taking physical control of the Vatican.
#1, CIA operatives crashed planes into US targets on 9/11, I think Bush knew exactly what he was doing.
Have ou notice that a very large number of posts in this blog are about Muslims/Arabs?
What is really concerns me is that it’s not that this blog is particularly biased against Muslims, it that the Muslims (and in particular Arabs) keep doing incredibly stupid things!
I draw a distinction between Muslims outside Arabia and those within. It seems the majority of the problems that Muslims inflict on the world start from within the Arab community.
I am beginning to believe that the problem is with the Arab culture/community, and that Islam is simply enables/justifies them.
It must be a bitch to drink coffee through a sheet.
So what do you expect the US Gov to do? This is a private citizen staying Saudi Arabia and should not expect to be exempt from the laws because of her status as a US citizen. The US does not have the legal or moral authority to interfere in a sovereign country’s legal matters.
# 1 steve uber said, >> The problem is that George Bush declared war on the wrong arab country.
While I rarely pass on an opportunity to bash Bush, that’s not the lesson I take from this article.
The core problem is that we’re married to this country that is antithetical to our American values — especially our oil policy (which Bush supports) and our insane debt-driven fiscal policy (which Bush and the GOP SUPER ULTRA supports) which puts our economic welfare in Saudi hands.
#5–Ah_Yea == so what took you so long?
What this story and your comment also show is that:
1. The House of Saud is a dictatorship of the worst sort. He collaborates with the West for our money while completely holding the anti-democratic/pro-caliphate leanings of his people in check.
2. We obviously need more “Wacky News” from non-Arab Muslim states. We can’t rely on TizhHo for his unique access to this fuller picture.
I wonder how moderate the non-arab muslimists would be if they ever get more power vis-a-vis the west, but to be fair, maybe how they treat their indigenous minorities right now would be a valid clue?
Starbucks should close ALL it’s stores in the Middle East in protest. Other western companies should follow suit.
If they want modern western things in Saudi, then they should try joining the 21st century.
Yes, I realize the Wahabbis would rather go back to the 7th century. If they want to live in the desert and f**k camels, they’re welcome to.
Let’s bomb Iran.
Her fault. Knowing the way this ass backwards country and every other Arab country is, why on Earth would you ever live there.
Bobbo, it took me awhile but I got there!
I also entirely agree with your comments. To add to what you have already said about the house of Saud, it has become supremely apparent that most Arabs are not ready for democracy. Many hoped that Iraq and Afghanistan would fall all over democracy once given the opportunity, but that didn’t happen.
I’m having a hard time naming an Arab country that actually has a democracy. Turkey is closest, but they are not entirely Arab.
The Saudis may be bad, but without them it actually could be worse.
#4 – CIA operatives crashed planes into US targets on 9/11,
STFU
#5 – I am beginning to believe that the problem is with the Arab culture/community, and that Islam is simply enables/justifies them.
You may have a point.
But I doubt it is inherent to the nature of being Arab, but rather of being in power. There are many Arabs who secretly and not so secretly wish to advance their culture out of the 5th Century.
If they could get to the 18th or 19th Century I think they’d see it as a good start.
#7 – So what do you expect the US Gov to do?
Rattle their fucking sabers.
This is an American businesswoman. I don’t give a rat’s ass about respecting cultures when we are talking about a barbaric culture lead by religious zealots.
Further, she broke no law. The article states that the area she sat in is the area women are permitted to sit with men.
But I agree with other posters who say we attacked the wrong country.
If we attack Saudi Arabia after January of 2009, I wonder if Cheney’s house will get bombed.
#10 – Starbucks should close ALL it’s stores in the Middle East in protest. Other western companies should follow suit.
If they want modern western things in Saudi, then they should try joining the 21st century.
You get 100% agreement from me.
remind me why people actually go to these countries? Why can’t we just wall them off from the rest of the world?
I agree with chuck. starbucks should close all shops to bring note to this and leave picture of mohammad ( however you spell it ) performing felatio on a camel on each door. At least i would
Starbucks should close its middle east locations in order to do what?
Punish them?
BBWWHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! and a few extra Har, Hars!
What dopes you are. Starbucks, like the GOUSA, is in the Middle East FOR OUR INTEREST==REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE ARABS WANT!!!!!!!
What is it about international corporation eludes you dweebs? Do you think Starbucks is pro-America?
Do you? STFU and buy another $8 cup of joe. Its about all you can handle.
We should pack our shit and leave! They will revert to goat-herding sand tramps within a decade. I spent a year over there working for an oil company. If it weren’t for us and the Europeans they wouldn’t know which way to point the drill bit! We should spend our money on our country, not theirs.
“…remind me why people actually go to these countries?” She is an American business woman. They go to these countries because their employer pays -enormous- salaries. Two to three times what they would make at home and, get this, it’s tax free. “She broke no law.” Oh yes she did. The article says she was in a area reserved for families. She was with a man who is not her husband or brother. That’s against the law and, if she didn’t know it then, she sure knows it now.
I know I am singing to the choir, but it has become apparent that -global warming aside- we need to do all we can to stop using Arab oil.
The best thing for OUR national security is to stop dealing with these imbeciles.
We have oil and coal. We can get by. Let the Europeans (who haven’t done diddly) get their oil from the Arabs and deal with them.
“I know I am singing to the choir, but it has become apparent that -global warming aside- we need to do all we can to stop using Arab oil.”
We use very little Arab oil. About half of our oil is drilled right here in the US, with the majority of the rest coming from Canada and Mexico. The remainder is supplied from Venezuela. Melonhead Chavez is a real problem.
With that aside, within the next few years there will be a massive shift in technology. Affordable plug-in hybrids and E85 will break OPEC’s back. They have been holding off production, and they will flood the markets soon with cheap oil so that these alternatives won’t develop. I think it’s too late for that. In another decade or so, OPEC will be as important as the Whale Oil Consortium was in 1900.
Bobbo, Ah_Yea
After Newcastle, Australia had a 5.6 Earthquake 28th of December 1989 every earthquake afterwards anywhere in the world was either head line news or reported.
It wasn’t long before 60 Minutes had a feature story “Is the world breaking up?” as it seemed that almost everyday there was Earthquakes in the news. People were worried, what should they do? So they rushed out and bought emergency supplies and prepared themselves for the worst. (Sounds familiar…? yeah?)
That is until the Australian seismographic institute spoke out and made a statement that in 1989 to date (1990) the Earth was rather less active seismographic wise than the norm. However, because of the Newcastle Earthquake being the first fatal one in Australia, this heightened people to the danger, so every tremor, no matter how insignificant, were headlines – even if they occurred in the middle of the Pacific ocean.
The same with reporting Arab and Muslim news post 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and “The War on Terror” they becomes headlines. This is why DU and CNN, ABC, Reuters et al, report these Arab Muslim shock horror news no matter how small as we have a heighten interest and concern for all things Arab and Muslim. Especially Americans, as for so many years they had “We are at WAR” pounded in their heads.
Yes, I agree, it was draconian, it was terrible for that woman to be arrested at Starbucks for just sitting with a man…. HOWEVER whether you agree with it or not that is CIVIL LAW in that country, it does not matter how much you don’t agree with it, its still the LAW, she of all people should have not been so ignorant to flout it!
In China and many other countries I can drink a beer in public with nary a glance in my direction from others. However if I did that in the US in many states (if not all) I could be arrested, if I protest I could be TAZED and if by chance my blood alcohol was above the limit charged with public intoxications even if I did nothing to indicate that and tossed in a cell.
It would be even worse for me if I was drinking my own home made liquor – THATS MOONSHINE – now a federal case! Chinese make their own medicinal liquors with nary a glance from the government. What about killing and eating a dog? JAIL time for something for both things that are common not only in China but many Asian countries.
Ok, Asia is backwards…so what about a girl from Europe taking off her top at a US beach – in the bible belt – and drinking a BEER!! Oh, the Humanity, the HORROR! Wrapped in a blanket and charged with public Indecency and intoxication and if she was luck not TAZED!
All these events would seem draconian to many people from many other countries but the police and courts would be the first to say “Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.” We all heard that before huh?
People who travel to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Malaysia and other countries who use Sharia (or Islamic) law as civil law need to be aware they are not in Kansas any more (pun intended). If someone gets bundled up and tossed in the can because they felt it didn’t apply to them as they are not Muslim they’re in for a surprise like that half naked public beer drinking European girl on a bible belt beach. 😉
German born John Kay of Steppenwolf made a poignant social statement in the song “Monster” “We don’t know how to mind our own business
‘Cause the whole worlds got to be just like US” meaning the United States.
Cheers
>> # 5 Ah_Yea said, >> Have ou notice that a very large number of posts in this blog are about Muslims/Arabs?
Stick around — we Christians get beat up pretty good here, too.
I draw a distinction between Muslims outside Arabia and those within. It seems the majority of the problems that Muslims inflict on the world start from within the Arab community.
I’m pretty familiar with the Muslim world and I would generally agree. But, I don’t think Arab culture is particularly radical. Sure the Saudis are kind of crazy but there are also plenty of modern, peaceful moderate Arabs, too.
And, goodness knows, there is no shortage of crazed Muslims in Asia, too. (I’ve been personally targeted by them!)
>>> I am beginning to believe that the problem is with the Arab culture/community, and that Islam is simply enables/justifies them.
I think it’s especially:
1) The BAZILLION of dollars we send them for oil gives Saudis the resources to spread Wahabism in a way that other non-Arab extremists can’t afford to.
2) The special status of Mecca gives the radical Saudi Wahabi clerics an authority not given others and they work it to their advantage. I’ve personally seen how poorly educated (but moderate) Hajis come back indoctrinated and thinking their have discovered the true Islam. I’ve seen whole villages go radical mostly from this.
But just the Arab culture? I’ve spent years immersed in both Arab and Asian Muslim countries and I don’t see it.
#21–Tihz==I’ll let Ah yea and most posters here speak for themselves, but the savy posters here basically agree that local laws should be understood and followed as that is there law and there culture.
Why is this being reported? Yes, another earthquake aka 9-11. When foreign cultures are accurately reported as jailing women for being out in public, it is a valuable, valid, and appropriate reminder that these folks “are not like us.” Its not important what they do to tourists, it is important that the same foci of beliefs motivate them to fly airplanes into buildings.
But Ah Yea notes that the focus should not be on Muslims, but rather Arab Fundies. My comment is “maybe.” Who knows how a virus will act when it comes into contact with new food sources?
What do you think Tihz–is moderate Muslim/Indonesia based faith more live and let live, or do they simply not have the power, nuclear, oil, or otherwise, to behave as they would if they could?
#17, I agree. We currently import 17% of our oil from the Arab states, and advances in technology will make weaning ourselves away completely much easier. Can’t happen too soon.
With all respect, TIHZ_HO, I somewhat disagree. This single incident is within itself is of no great importance. Yes she did break the law, and yes she will get deported just like the schoolteacher who named a teddy bear Mohamed at the request of her class, end of story.
My comments relate to a much bigger picture.
Please excuse us if we feel that we are at war, in particular, please excuse:
The 1970 Dawson’s Field hijackings by the PLO:
The 1979 bombing of the US embassy in Pakistan:
The 1983 bombing of the US embassy in Beirut: 63 dead:
1983 Beirut barracks: 241 American servicemen, 58 French servicemen, and 6 civilians dead:
The 1984 bombing of the US embassy in Akwar: 22 dead:
1985 Achille Lauro: Leon Klinghoffer, anyone?
1986 Berlin discotheque bombing:
1988 Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland: 259 dead:
1993 World Trade Center bombing:6 dead:
1996 Khobar Towers bombing: 19 dead:
1998 US embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania: 225 dead:
2000 USS Cole attacked: 17 dead:
2001 September 11, 2001, Twin Towers: 2,997 dead:
Of course, this is an incomplete list. It doesn’t even mention injured or anything after 9/11, which list – I assure your – is lengthy.
Should I go on?
#21 – TIHZ_HO: many good examples of how civil rights are always based on what is socially acceptable.
This only goes to show that the vast majority of posters on this blog is wrong about one thing: bombs won’t solve the problem!
It’s true, the lack of personal freedom in some countries is appalling. I’ve been to the middle east, been to Riad, and it’s just like being on a different planet – or in a different century. But: the change needed is a social change and that has to come from inside.
So: you declare war on a place like that, you get yet another Iraq. There’s no democratic tradition in those countries, there are no democratic forces to fill the void after a war. Watch Iraq! Many of those places aren’t even homogeneous countries, they’re territories as defined by the western colonial governments. Again Iraq makes a good example. Why are we trying so hard to keep it as one sigle entity? It’s foreign interest. If the Kurds were allowed their own nation, it would threaten the “territoral integrity” of Turkey, who occupy another significant portion of kurdish soil.
So war would just create a void that would probably not be filled with better forces but just with different ones.
Have the lighthouses of western/American culture withdraw from those countries? (good grief, I’ve never thought I’d call Starbucks that)
That’s the dumbest idea of the day. You want to change those countries? You want to strengthen women’s rights there? You have to change it from inside. Education and small increases of freedom are the way to go. Saudi and other arab states already have the problem that the women are much better educated than the men which is basically due to the fact that men are brought up to be just like their fathers: wealthy enough to spend their lifes in total boredom at horse- and camel races, falcon hunts and all that.
I don’t have the numbers, but the percentage of female to male students is amazing. Educated women will eventually demand their rights. Cultural export will help this change. Withdrawing won’t.
Now, one may dispute the fact if McDonalds, Starbucks, Prada and the likes are really what we should be exporting to those countries, but let’s be honest: they’re the essence of our culture, at least of the culture of the masses here.
There’s a film being run at the Berlinale right now about a German women’s soccer team playing the Iranian women’s national team (you didn’t think such a thing existed, eh?). Those are the small steps that will eventually accumulate to overthrow those stoneage governments. But we should be very careful, for it works both ways. The stoneage thinking is also sent our way. Look at the bible belt and how it has become a major force in the US, look at Pope Ben and how he’s rowing his ship back into dark ages.
Freedom is a hard thing to earn and an easy one to give up.
pj
I meant #20 in the first paragraph above.
I am also interested to learn more about radical Islam in Asia as per #22 and #23. If radicalism is in Asia as well, does this say that it truly is Islam that enables these crazies?
Last comment for the evening…
#25 – pjakobs: You eloquently said what I was leading to.
By eliminating our need for Arab oil, we also eliminate the need for an ongoing presence there. This reduces tension between the Arab culture and the US culture, which allows the US to influence the Middle East in more constructive ways.
We should keep on the alert for Arab states launching Jihad against NATO countries, etc. but otherwise since the US would not be dependent on Arab oil, they can be pretty much left to their own devices.
I feel this to be a better tact than the current course we are following.
Ah_Yea, Pedro, Jager and others…
Chinese New Year Shanghai 2008
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4cpNRSyAJW8
Cheers
Awesome! Awesome! I really wish I was there!
#23 bobbo
First yes I agree, the focus should be on the radical factions who are responsible for the promotion of terror. This is an issue with any cultures with minority factions getting all the press and everyone else is tarred with the same brush.
Mention, “Evangelical Southern Baptists” and unless you are one what is your reaction? Someone in my face trying to save me? Is that “Evangelical Southern Baptists” en masse or just a minority especially the ones seeking publicity?
Did the American public en masse declare war in Iraq or was it a small group who had the power to do so?
Do Iranians en masse want to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth or a small group who are in power?
See my point? We must be careful when speaking in general terms like Muslims, Arabs, Southern Baptists, people who post on DU…
Your question: From my experience in Indonesia the people there are no different than the people in the US, Australia, China et al, they want to have a comfortable secure life, have a family, good job a home et al. As good Muslims they respect other faiths and do not try to inflict their faith on others. (!) Indonesia has en masse rejected the formation of a Islamic republic while some provinces like Aceh (Tsunami) want Islamic law and wish to be independent.
Malaysia is another country which is more Islamic then Indonesia but you would never know it. Islamic law or or the Shariah as I posted is their civil law. All Malaysians are assumed to be Muslim by law. I have been to KL many times and what a great place – no problems and the people are as nice as they can be.
Both these countries show that while Islamic Law or the Shariah can be medieval and barbaric from other points of view this does not necessitate that the invoking of it automatically means in practice it is.
While I was in Indonesia I worked for a group of companies who amongst other things owned a couple of resort islands. I have seen so many time Saudis arriving from the airport with duty free Johnny Walker asking were are the massage girls at.
Keep in mind that Saudi Arabia is tribal and what are Saudis like en masse? Not like the rich educated Saudis I met – surly! Not with Mecca being right there.
The Muslims I met and worked with are people just like me and want only to have the chance for a better life.
I forget who said this: Its better to have them inside pissing out than outside pissing in!
Would it be so bad to have closer ties to Iran without all the conditions you know they will never accept? The pressure would now be on them. If the US were to ask Iran and the other Middle East countries for help to re-build Iraq what then? How would the middle eastern people en masse think about the US? Don’t forget they also have there versions of CNN et al.
China has good relations with Iran, no bombs or planes flying into buildings or constant orange alerts here…why is that? 😉
Cheers