Diego Ortiz, one of two men shot by Pasadena homeowner Joe Horn.
Two men suspected of burglarizing a neighbor’s home were shot in the back by Pasadena homeowner Joe Horn after the suspects ventured into his front yard, Pasadena police disclosed Friday. Also, for the first time, investigators revealed the Nov. 14 shooting was witnessed by a plainclothes Pasadena detective, who had pulled up in an unmarked car seconds before Horn fired three shots from his 12-guage shotgun. The detective’s name was not released as the new details emerged about the controversial shootings that have outraged minority activists but also brought an outpouring of support from others. The suspects were illegal immigrants from Colombia, and one man had been deported nearly 10 years ago, authorities said.
Authorities have said they are investigating whether Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 48, were part of a crime ring linked to burglaries and the use of fake immigration documents. The two — killed by Horn after he said they were trying to steal his neighbor’s property — were in the country illegally, according to Leticia Zamarripa, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Horn, 61, shot Ortiz and Torres, who went by the alias Miguel Antonio DeJesus. Horn called police after hearing breaking glass. He ignored an operator’s warning to not go outside with his gun. Horn told the operator that he did not know his neighbors well. Neighbors said the family moved into the home next to Horn’s house about four months ago. “They targeted foreign-born people,” Corbett said. “They felt they were easier victims.”Little is known about the homeowners, who have Vietnamese surnames. Activists and Horn supporters clashed Sunday when they staged dueling protests outside his home. The homeowners association is trying to prevent more protests from being held in the subdivision.
On the website is the audio of the 911 call where dispatch is trying to talk this man out of confronting the criminals. Chilling.
we need more people like joe horn, these guys were career criminals and illegals, more people like joe would make them think twice maybe
#1;
We need more cowards to shoot unarmed people in the back?
Being in Houston, ‘Ground Zero,’ so to speak, I’ve been seeing a constant barrage of the story the last few days, and it shows something that few seem to pick up on.
Public opinion, this being Tex-ass, is sharply divided on this issue, needless to say. But in few places outside of TX, I believe, will you find so many bloodthirsty redneck assholes who lack any sense of proportion.
These two were total scumbags, and I’ll be among the first to agree that the world has suffered no loss from their abrupt departure from the land of the living.
HOWEVER! The whole, age-old concept, which many Texians have never even heard of, of proportionate punishment – i.e., the idea that the severity of punishment should be in direct proportion to the severity of the crime, which is enshrined in the Constitution’s guarantee of freedom from ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ – is going largely ignored here, not just by the public, but by the media as well.
And that’s really lame, because that’s really what the whole brouhaha is about. Should human life, even the lives of criminal scumbags, be forfeit over mere property? A VCR, some cash, some jewelry – no one wants to lose these things, and no one says that those who steal these things shouldn’t be punished. But we don’t have a death penalty for theft, and for good reason. No material goods can add up to a human life.
To read and listen to the idiots and morans who are cheering Horn on, some of ’em taking up a collection for his defense, if it turns out to be needed, the thieves deserved to die – for burglary.
And they actually let people who “think” like that vote. Incredible.
Civilized societies do not condone or permit killing human beings for stealing things. Period. And if you don’t believe that, go take a look at the kind of societies that DO, then ask yourself if you want to live in a society so utterly barbaric…
Joe horn defended his country honorably that day. Enough is enough and we can’t take it anymore.
“These two were total scumbags, and I’ll be among the first to agree that the world has suffered no loss from their abrupt departure from the land of the living.”
Next time someone of their “vocation” decides that you are lucky enough to be their victim – whether it be “when you are away from home maybe buying groceries or at home minding your own business” just remember to relax and “go with it”! Right?
Shoot them to protect your property and maybe your well-being (if not your life)? Noooooo…..bake them cookies and invite them in for a drink.
I don’t really know the answer, but I know enough to not try to steal your property.
#3 You are missing a huge part of the equation. This man has FIRST called for help from the authorities. In any civilized and orderly society police would be sent ASAP and we’d have heard them arriving over his emergency call long before he decided to go vigilant.
But, there in Houston apparently it is OK to do “just burglary”. Was police hunting Ben Ladin or just sleeping? May I guess later…
Once authorities don’t protect you, it is the end of civility. I see the Horn’s act as an act of spontaneously formed militia, defending lawless area. That is American tradition. Authorities there should wake up and bring some order and civilization. Only than can your comment apply.
He didn’t “defend” Jack Shit. He deliberately murdered two people in cold blood. He set himself up, literally, as judge, jury and executioner, in violation of the laws of the land and the Constitution itself, Mr. Fucking “Can’t-take-it-anymore” Patriot.
You’re a perfect example of the kind I was talking about. Be glad you don’t live in a sensible society, because not only would you not be permitted to vote, you wouldn’t be allowed to breed any others like yourself.
I see pictures of your type every day, from Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan, primitive, barbaric idiot peasants shooting and blowing each other up over worthless, petty bullshit.
He could just fire a warning shot. They will never come back to the neighbor hood and they might think twice about hitting next ones.
I agrees with #3
Horn saved us paying to lock them up for the rest of their lives. They would have eventually ended up in prison forever, probably for a violent crime, sooner or later.
Police do not usually stop any crime, or keep us safe. They usually show up after the fact to clean up the scene and file paperwork. Completely worthless.
Any scum that would violate someone’s home should be eliminated from our society. Horn did a good thing. I congratulate and support him.
Have your house or property ever been burglarized?
If not, you have no idea of the feeling of frustration and rage that takes over you. Its very easy to judge and criticize when you read about this, but when it happens to you or people close to you, you`ll be surprised how thin the civilization layer is and how easy it’s peeled away.
Add to this that police do not care because they have bigger problems and if caught they would probably get free with a slap in the wrist and you have a recipe for disasters like this.
Sad as it is, petty bullshit is all we have in our lives.
#5 – Ranger007
Bad news, pal. They weren’t after him OR his stuff. They broke into a neighbors’. He wasn’t defending himself, they had grabbed what they wanted and were gettin’ outta Dodge. He, against the repeated advice of the 911 op, went outside to confront them. He wasn’t threatened. His property wasn’t threatened. He already called 911, all he needed to do was wait, maybe watch which direction they went – but he decided to, and said clearly that he was going to shoot them.
PLUS…
#6 – dusan maletic
“In any civilized and orderly society police would be sent ASAP and we’d have heard them arriving over his emergency call long before he decided to go vigilant.
But, there in Houston apparently it is OK to do “just burglary”. Was police hunting Ben Ladin or just sleeping?”
This happened, not in Houston, but in the blue-collar, redneck petroleum-company-town of Pasadena, where the police have a pretty good response time.
In fact, contrary to your assumption, the police DID arrive before he shot them.
A plainclothes Pasadena cop rolled up in an unmarked car and saw the whole thing unfold before his eyes; in fact, he ducked, because he realized that this whackjob with the 12-guage might think he was the burglars’ wheelman.
So if Mr. Vigilante Horn had done what the 911 op told him to do, and stayed in the house, the cop would’ve apprehended the perps easily, since (a) they were unarmed and carrying armloads of shit, so even if they had guns, he would’ve had the drop on them from Jump St., and (b) they were on foot. No getaway vehicle.
That silly old trigger-happy bastard didn’t have to do what he did, and shouldn’t’ve done what he did. Because he wasn’t threatened, wasn’t the victim, and the perps had done nothing other than break into an unoccupied house and snatched some things – he is, in fact, a murderer.
the dispatcher COULD have been a bit better..in informing Mr. Horn of the arrival of officers. If he’d kept him informed, and said “there is an unmarked car infront of the house, right now.” That would have gone a LONG WAY to keeping the guy in the house. People under an adrenalin rush (fear and anticipation, with a real trigger) are very hard to talk out of anything. They have a very hard time following directions. To keep thwarting him by saying “stay in the house”..instead of making him feel like he’s part of the action was a grave mistake. We have no idea if this guy was a Vet, (like Vietnam Era) but, he was reacting like someone who was ONLY IN REACT MODE.
I blame the dispatcher. He did not make the correct call. He was playing INTO the helplessness Mr. Horn felt, instead of having him feel like he was doing the correct thing, and an integral part of the drama that was playing out. He should have equipment that would allow him to patch into the patrol cars, or at the very least, give a blow-by-blow play of what was happening while the caller was on the line.
Mr. Horn was an idiot. He was also in the heat of the moment, gripped by fear and full of what I can only guess was right-wing talk show nonsense. Just as nutty as the 19 year old on a shooting spree at a mall….thinking that was “right”, and just as crazy.
Simple rule of law:
If they are IN MY house, and I fear for my life or the lives of my family, I can shoot to kill.
If they are outside on MY Property, I can arrest them and await the arrival of law enforcement (Citizens arrest). I had better have all MY ducks in a row, because the Police will harass and attack me for the arrest.
If they are in a neighbors property, I can also make an arrest as a citizen, however I have no right to detain them, nor to inflict bodily harm. I take a description of who they were, what they were doing, and any vehicle(s) that may be involved.
What this man did was to shoot first and ask questions after. I guess he was trying out for the local police here, because thats exactly what they do. I guess its best that he had a gun rather than a Taser…..don’t know how many more of those stories I can read.
EXCEPT – meetsy, that he had already dropped / hung up the phone and gone outside before the cop rolled up. Even if the cop had had time to report his arrival, it was too late for the dispatcher to tell Horn.
And 911 dispatch here has gone through some scandals recently, and they are not permitted to ad lib. The dispatcher here has been thoroughly trained to tell callers like Horn exactly what Horn was told. Deviating from the approved script is a one-way ticket to the unemployment line.
#3 “And they actually let people who “think” like that vote. Incredible.”
Yeah, makes you despair of democracy, doesn’t it? Would you be comfortable with passing what “the guy on the street” thinks into law? I wouldn’t, but hey, that’s what sometimes happens in democracies. You’ll just have to hope that there are more intelligent people, with less misaligned perceptions of morality, than nutters.
Anyway, I agree with Cat, this guys actions were disproportionate. Part of the reason is probably the Fear and Hate that many people in the US live with, and part of it are the gun laws. I’m not sure that I’m against people having guns, but sometimes I get can’t stop thinking about what it would be like if they weren’t so easy to get hold of.
Couldn’t this guy just calm down and think for two seconds before going outside and pulling the trigger? Is it really that easy to make the decision two take two lives? Twisted Morality? Crazed Hatred? Constant Fear?
In the end, that was pure and blatant murder.
#13 Dennis,
Those may be the “rule of Law” in the State that you live in but not necessarily in Texas. A recently passed law termed the “castle doctrine” allows the use of deadly force (under certain circumstances) to defend property, even a third parties property. It is quite possible Joe Horn did not commit a crime under Texas law.
The full text of this law is here:
http://tinyurl.com/2u9x57
I have been to Pasadena, TX. I doubt many of those making comments have any idea where it is let alone what it is like.
And unless you have been burglarized (as I have) you do not know what you are talking about. Ask someone whose home has been violated by burglars how many hours sleep they have lost wondering if someone was going to break in again.
Yes, it is a redneck town. So what? I need to know what neighborhood all you bleeding heart liberals live in so I can come over there, rob your neighbors, and you can come out and ask for my name and phone number before I leave.
Oh, by the way, you guess whether I have a gun in my pocket or not. I might have and might decide I don’t want anyone to identify me later. Would that maybe change your perspective?
Use of deadly force is only morally acceptable if there is a direct threat to those around the people being shot at. In this case, two unarmed burglars were shot in the back, while there was no direct threat the physical well being of anyone around them. The shooter did not have to fire the lethal shots at all.. the police were responding (and he knew it), the burglars were not physically threatening him or anyone else, and they were shot in the back.
I would not be surprised to see the shooter go to jail for manslaughter-1, if not outright murder.
#18 I’m sorry you’ve been burglarized, I have too, but that still doesn’t make me want to kill the one/ones that did it. I want them caught and punished to the full extent of the law, but I don’t want them Dead.
Now, why would you want to rob our neighborhoods? Are you a thief? Or do you want to make a point, crudely?
Yeah, I’m a bleeding heart liberal, but I prefer that to bleeding people.
Awake wrote,
“I would not be surprised to see the shooter go to jail for manslaughter-1, if not outright murder.”
Actually, judging by the largely positive reaction from the residents of Texas (and the presence of the “castle doctrine” law), I would be surprised if Joe Horn was even charged with a crime. Morality doesn’t always equate to what is against the law.
I’m a left wing glory hole veteran who will make sure the third “victim” of this “unprovoked” act of violence against an out of control “gun freak”.
He WILL be nursed back to complete health so he can get back to helping turn the public opinion for legitimizing undocumented , law-breaking, criminal aliens for their RIGHT to help themselves to the “bounty” and “opportunity” America and its citizens (A>K>A Helpless Sheep). When you AmeriKKKA luvers learn you are suckers and you are only here to PAY! (in every conceivable use of the word) SUKKAS!!!
Those two got what they deserve.
Well, at least he called the police first. Now lets talk about the thousands of unsolved murders in this country every year. And soccer moms in mini vans driving too fast in ice storms.
#3 Proportionate punishment? What are going to do, steal the TV sets back?
These guys would come back again and again…eventually with guns.
#8 Warning shot? They might return fire and shoot to kill. No warning shots. No brandishing. Gun Rule #1: When you bring out a gun, you have already made the conscious decision to take a human life. Otherwise, your own odds of survival drop dramatically.
#12 “the dispatcher COULD have been a bit better” Yeah…there you go! Start blaming 3rd parties.
The entire situation is unfortunate. Horn should plead temporary insanity and get a minimum sentence and perhaps anger management class. What he did will not be condoned by any court because it leads to civil unrest and vigilanties running amok. Still, I empathize with Horn because he was afraid (with good cause) that he was next. This was a multi-month situation, not a 20 minute situation. If you think I am going to sit back and wait for them 24-7, then I want some of what you are smoking.
#25 – tjexpose
“#3 Proportionate punishment? What are going to do, steal the TV sets back?”
Nice try, but bullshit. You know what the fuck I’m talking about. The typical penalty for 1st degree murder is life in prison or death, because deliberate killing is regarded as a Very Bad Thing Indeed. The typical penalty for spitting on the sidewalk is a $10 fine, because – AS YOU MIGHT HAVE GUESSED – spitting on the sidewalk is not regarded by society in general as being quite as bad as murder. Does that come as a shock to you? And guess what? Offenses in between those extremes entail punishments between a $10 fine and the death penalty. Are you still with me?
So, since stealing THINGS from an UNOCCUPIED DWELLING is not regarded by any sane person as being even remotely as serious as taking a human life, the death penalty does not apply to burglary. Because a human life is, even the life of a scumbag, worth more than any property.
So, in conclusion, we DO NOT KILL PEOPLE FOR TAKING THINGS. NOT. EVER. There are primitive, barbaric cultures scattered around the world who do shit like that. And those cultures are shit.
Now, under the heading of ‘Additional Bullshit’, we have the following:
“They might return fire and shoot to kill.”
Bullshit. They were unarmed. AND even if they WERE armed, there fucking HANDS WERE FULL. Gimme a fuckin’ break.
“When you bring out a gun, you have already made the conscious decision to take a human life.”
Double bullshit. I don’t know where the fuck you get your rules, but among people not itching for an excuse to waste somebody, the idea is that when you pull it out, you are ready to use it to STOP, or if necessary, KILL – IF IT TURNS OUT THAT YOU HAVE TO. BIIIIG difference. Again, your version is just a excuse for someone who wants to deliberately kill someone. Where I come from, that’s what we call a murderer.
“What he did will not be condoned by any court because it leads to civil unrest and vigilanties running amok.”
More bullshit. What he did has already been condoned and our mouth-breathing asswipe DA. It’s not in any way unlikely that he won’t face any charges whatsoever. A shitload of Pasadeneans, and others, held a support rally for him.
And for all the would-be vigilantes who think like him, shooting someone down seemed like a great idea until he actually did it. Now he’s berry berry upset. Guess it wasn’t like the movies.
>>> jerry said, Have your house or property ever been burglarized?
If not, you have no idea of the feeling of frustration and rage that takes over you. Its very easy to judge and criticize when you read about this, but when it happens to you or people close to you, you`ll be surprised how thin the civilization layer is and how easy it’s peeled away.
Goodness, I get tired of this emotionalism defense.
I say this as a person who’s been burglarized, robbed at gunpoint and even had a couple of damn-near close calls with being bombed by terrorists.
Yes, I felt tremendous outrage. Who wouldn’t?
But I am rational enough and educated enough to know that a civilized society can’t base laws on the emotionalism of the victims. This just leads to anarchy.
As for this case, I headr the 911 tape of this guy. He was warned repeatedly and clearly not to take this action. He did it anyway. He didn’t even seem that emotional. He sounded perfectly rational, to me. The guy should go to jail, best I can tell.
Mister THC,
Very well made arguments. Among the best you have ever posted.
I’m looking to see if somewhere down the line this doesn’t become a Federal Civil Rights Case. The same thing happened in the Rodney King case. The cops beat a stacked jury in the criminal trial but two of them were found guilty in the Federal trial.
While I was reading some of the “yahoo, vigilante” posts, I was thinking if I might sit beside some Texas highway and take potshots at speeders. My taxes helped pay for that road, if those assholes want to abuse MY ROAD they deserve to be shot. With maybe some #2 buckshot. Fucking dangerous road hogs !!! Then I might go after those who park in handicapped spaces.
“activists” for two illegals who were burglers? What’s next, activists for illegal rapists?! I’m not happy that Horn’s choice was to gun them down. What they stole probably couldn’t justify a death sentence. And if the activists are merely protesting that, then I’d agree. But I don’t think that Horn is entirely to blame. He’s a product of a gun toting culture, that has touted its use as the solution to many a dispute, since the WW2. Isn’t the NRA also to blame, for never caring to offer alternatives? All they care about is the easy flow of weapons into the consumers’ hands. They certainly have never discourage their wrongful use, that I know of. Nor has the gov’t itself. Probably, they don’t want to create too many pacifists, come the next war.
So I guess poor Mr. Horn will noe get ground up in the legal machinery. Because of an ambiguous culture that maintains firepower as the solution to all the world’s ills. But then chastises anyone who employes this solution in their own backyard. As a 60 year old, Horn was probably responding to his Vietnam War training. But when they return, they didn’t deprogram the killer instinct back out of them. If anything, the military has been ramping the programming up. Creating their own version of the FPS video games. But it wouldn’t surprise me if they had a hand in financialy backing the others, over the years. Don’t laugh at the idea. They’ve been tampering with Tv and movie scripts for decades. So why not computer games?
And while Horn probably wasn’t a video gamer in his youth. I’ll just bet he got a health dose of Tv and movie westerns. In those, they always gun down the bad guys. Which ever way they’re facing.
This looks like it will make a great made for tv movie. I’ll just wait for the tv networks to decide how I should feel about it.