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An answer to those who ask how can you be moral and teach morality without religion. Sounds like it’s pretty easy when you skip the fear and shame and other negatives used by some religions to enforce morality.
“When you have kids,” says Julie Willey, a design engineer, “you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on.” So every week, Willey, who was raised Buddhist and says she has never believed in God, and her husband pack their four kids into their blue minivan and head to the Humanist Community Center in Palo Alto, Calif., for atheist Sunday school.
An estimated 14% of Americans profess to have no religion, and among 18-to-25-year-olds, the proportion rises to 20%, according to the Institute for Humanist Studies. The lives of these young people would be much easier, adult nonbelievers say, if they learned at an early age how to respond to the God-fearing majority in the U.S. “It’s important for kids not to look weird,” says Peter Bishop, who leads the preteen class at the Humanist center in Palo Alto. Others say the weekly instruction supports their position that it’s O.K. to not believe in God and gives them a place to reinforce the morals and values they want their children to have.
And get your F%&King Kind_a_captcha right. Take me back!! Pricks. You do what you want, but forget about US!! the viewers!!!!
Dvorak! You piss me off! You get yourself off about saving 33% bandwidth for not having to press one key in a total of three key-presses, and yet,
WE have to reload our cache in order to get out of your Kind-a-captcha. You sad bastard. I’m guessing you just want to get off like Adam Curry does, so….FUCK YOU: John C Dvorak!!!
I love your site, by the way. But, you’re STILL a sad prick.
Again I will put forth again the question that was not answered and only one person danced around it.
For atheists, what is the profit in ethics and morals? What do you get out of it?
If the religious world states we have them because if we use them we will be rewarded in an afterlife or go to a higher state of being; what then do atheists gain if they learn ethics and morals?
What is their great reward?
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My guess is the reward is a better life and better society. Do you think that people only don’t going around killing people because there are punishments for doing so? Do you have think most people do not have a moral compass that goes beyond punishment and reward? What guides my morals and most peoples I think is treating people the way you wish to be treated. I can not imagine people when presented with a right or wrong choice having to rely thinking about a reward and or punishment. You are founding your morality based on tradition and faith. Not in free choice and the understanding of the harm or good done by your actions.
Actually it’s not an Atheist group. They are Jumanists which isn’t the same thing. Although they don’t believe in God(s) their focus is on community and not God. A true Atheist is more obcessed with deities.
BTW, I personally attend the meetings they have on Sunday almost every Sunday and the web site for this group humanists.org is hosted here on the same server as this site is.
The simple reality is that Humanists, Athiests, Whatever, are finding that the age old indoctrination and teaching practices of those stupid church institutions actually work, and are attempting to use the model themselves.
As an aside, I have no problem with those same people making their own “church”, if a group of them have the desire. It sounds like many of the already do have that desire. If nothing else, why should they get out of being woke up early on a Sunday morning by their wife?
Again I will put forth again the question that was not answered and only one person danced around it.
For atheists, what is the profit in ethics and morals? What do you get out of it?
If the religious world states we have them because if we use them we will be rewarded in an afterlife or go to a higher state of being; what then do atheists gain if they learn ethics and morals?
What is their great reward?
Cursor_
We get to live with our neighbors in peace and harmony. That’s called a society. It’s the fear tactic used to control the superstitious that is the most repulsive part of religion. You care about others because they care about you. If you live in a society without those principles, then no matter how religious you are, I feel very sorry for you.
#185, curser,
For atheists, what is the profit in ethics and morals? What do you get out of it?
First, I don’t consider myself an atheist. I consider myself normal.
As for what do non delusional people that don’t think there is some puppeteer pulling strings to make us dance get? Love. We have our morals out of love and consideration for our fellow man. We are considerate because we live in a society where we either all get along or will perish. We think of people first and react for them.
Contrast that to the Christian and Muslim doctrines which preach you won’t get any lasting reward in heaven unless you obey. That is fear. Fear of spending eternity in a very nasty place. Religious people think of their god’s reaction first and react for themselves.
But profit? “Atheists” don’t need a profit. The religious though, that is why they have their morals and why they fail so easily. They need a profit. Normal people don’t think of rewards for doing what is right.
>>As an aside, I have no problem with those
>>same people making their own “church”
Heh. Atheist church. Next thing you know, you’ll be saying Atheism is a religion!
#185 – For atheists, what is the profit in ethics and morals? What do you get out of it?
I reject the premise that there needs to be “profit” in morals… But the benefit of ethics and morals for the atheist is the same as for the Christian, The Jew, the Muslim, or anyone else.
If I treat you fairly, with respect, and genuine compassion, there is a reasonable chance you’ll treat me this way. That’s it…
That and what is right is right no matter what your beliefs are.
Sadly, we live with too many fundy mutherfuckers of all faiths and fairness, respect, and compassion are in very short supply.
#193
Amen brother.
“If I treat you fairly, with respect, and genuine compassion, there is a reasonable chance you’ll treat me this way. That’s it…”
OhForTheLoveOf is right. This is the be all, end all. Religion should not be a contributing factor for how a person acts. People are either assholes, compassionate or some combination.
The problem is that when religion is added to a persona, the “holier than thou” attitude begins to appear… then maybe some violence.
Wipe all religion away, and we would be close to world peace.
#188 – A true Atheist is more obcessed with deities.
A TRUE atheist (note the lowercase “a” denoting that it is not a proper noun) is not even remotely obsessed with deities.
Also, a true atheist can spell.
Holy crapola. Is this thread going for the Gold?
I wonder how many times it has gone full circle? How many posters have read all 197 posts? Last i looked there were 122!
Well despite all that I have something to add that is extremely insightful.
“Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.”
Discuss.
“what is the ethical framework in atheism for morality?” -gregallen
Real morals come naturally from nature. They began to take form the moment humankind began to socialize. They were perfected over time to meet the needs of desired social structures. Religious morals are natural morals that have been distorted to fit with self-serving religious interests. Thats why many christians are bigots. To them gays are immoral. To realists such as atheists, gays are one product of many in evolving humans. There is nothing wrong about them.
>>“Atheism is a religion like not
>>collecting stamps is a hobby.”
>>
>>Discuss.
Nothing more to say about it. That myth was debunked about 185 posts ago, and dozens of times in other threads.
Next.
#197
I’d agree that this one is pretty much decided. The conclusion is that Mr. Mustard is using a dictionary of his own making and that when we translate English to Mr. Mustard-speak he is able to communicate with the rest of us. Time to move on…
Ah, Tommie, Tommie, Tommie. You True Believers are the most difficult to reason with. No matter how many times it is shown that Atheism is religious in nature, and Atheologists are the clergy of their church, you perseverate in sticking your head in the sand.
See what the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals had to say on the matter:
Court rules atheism a religion –
Decides 1st Amendment protects prison inmate’s right to start study group
A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate’s rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.
“Atheism is [the inmate’s] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.
The court decided the inmate’s First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists.
The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion.
I DONT blame god for my failings…
I dont Blame god for MAN’s failings…
Even the parables, have shown that you should LOOK to YOURSELF FIRST, and BE THE BEST YOU CAN BE, THEN look to god.
I look to MAN, for MAN’s Problems..
I look to MAN for MAN’s solutions..
I can Blame god, for his IDIOT CHILDREN..
His IDIOT children, went out on their OWN, and FOULED their Own BED.
WE, not God, Make this world into the Heaven or HELL, we wish it to BE…
#201 Mister Mustard, I confess that I doubted what you said until you used bold italics to emphasize its undeniable truth. I’m just glad I’m not invested heavily in this semantic discussion. You may be aware that I have renounced all religion, even the imaginary religion of atheism.
How about that? Atheism is the imaginary religion that sees the real folly of worshiping imaginary deities. That’s a good definition — I just hope that copyright protection is available to infidels 😉
Mr. Mustard, you have the potential to convince yourself of anything, even in the face of illogic. The stamp collecting example was never debunked.
Re #201, “prison officials violated an inmate’s rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.”
It doesn’t say that atheism IS a religion, it says atheists should be given the same rights as those with a religion have” SPECIFICALLY…
“and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being.”
All that says is that his particular set of rules indicates a religion. What are the details of those rules? They probably follow the definition of a religion. He probably wants to hod rituals of some sort, regular meetings as a group to discuss the merits of being atheist, they may have selected a book, or composed a set of rules to follow, etc, etc.
Until I can legally have a tax free building on prime downtown real estate for just claiming to be an atheist, nothing more, your little fact-less aberrations mean nothing.
>>I confess that I doubted what you said until you
>>used bold italics to emphasize its undeniable
>>truth.
That’s why I did it, son. Perception is reality. By the same token, I didn’t take you seriously until you made it clear that you were slightly dangerous, in addition to being a freethinker, hop-and-happening, etc.
>>How about that?
Now, you’re not making any sense, m’hijito.
>>The stamp collecting example was never
>>debunked.
Sure it was. Over and over and over again. You’re just to fuzzy-headed to realize it.
>>All that says is that his particular set
>>of rules indicates a religion.
Sure, just like all Atheists. Anybody who doesn’t have those rules would just be classified as “non-religious”, and they wouldn’t get the same bennies as a devout believer, be they Christian, Jew, or Atheist.
>>It doesn’t say that atheism IS a religion,
>>it says atheists should be given the same
>>rights as those with a religion have
Where I come from, cabrón, that’s saying that religion IS a religion. Otherwise, why should they be given the same rights? Plumbers don’t get those rights. Airline pilots don’t get those rights. Child molesters don’t get those rights. Those are rights afforded to RELIGION, and because Atheism is a RELGION, it should have the same rights.
>>Until I can legally have a tax free building
>>on prime downtown real estate for just
>>claiming to be an atheist, nothing more,
>>your little fact-less aberrations mean
>>nothing.
That has got to be the stupidest, most illogical, roundabout, spaghetti-bowl-reasoning argument I have ever heard.
Christians, Jews, and Muslims don’t get tax-free real estate either, unless they organize and form a CHURCH. My home is not tax free, even though I am a Christian. The guy down the street from me doesn’t have tax-exempt status, even though he’s an Orthodox Jew, and as “religious” as they come. If Atheist believers want the same bennies as believers in organized religions, they should form an organization. Just like the Atheist in prison did; the one who got the same rights as religious groups do because he was forming a religious group.
You got to lay off the chronic, son. Your thinking is ALL fucked up.
#205 – Perception is reality.
No… Reality is reality.
Perception as reality is a catch phrase for those who won’t accept actual reality.
>>No… Reality is reality.
Then how do you explain all these True Believers running around claiming that their religious beliefs are not a religion?
#205 writes “Now, you’re not making any sense, m’hijito.”
Ah, it looks like I finally found that exposed nerve I was looking for…
>Nope. I’m equating the simple belief in a higher >power with the simple belief that a higher power >does not exist. I really don’t see the concept as >being that complicated. You believe in X, or you >believe in non-X. If X is a deity, it’s a >religion.
I’m not going to get involved in arguing whether Atheism is a religion or not. I will try to help point out the difference of opinion in terms which do not allow such ambiguity.
Where x = religion:
MisterMustard claims that Atheism means “not believing in God” which is the opposite of believing in God:
Christians, Jews, etc: x = 1
Atheists: x = -1
bobbo and the other Atheists arguing with him claim that Atheism is a lack of belief in God:
Christians, Jews, etc: x = 1
Atheists: x = 0
MM,
Give it up already. I understand your passion but your arguments are not persuasive and have not won over any one.
Atheism is not a religion. Stamp collecting is a hobby. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Sex is good. Not having sex is not so good.
That does not mean that there are no religions, hobbies, or that nothing else is good. But not everyone has a religion, a hobby, or a good thing.
#208 – Then how do you explain all these True Believers running around claiming that their religious beliefs are not a religion?
That’s your delusion. I can’t explain it. But I am wondering if you happen to be smoking an unusually large amount of weed?