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An answer to those who ask how can you be moral and teach morality without religion. Sounds like it’s pretty easy when you skip the fear and shame and other negatives used by some religions to enforce morality.
“When you have kids,” says Julie Willey, a design engineer, “you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on.” So every week, Willey, who was raised Buddhist and says she has never believed in God, and her husband pack their four kids into their blue minivan and head to the Humanist Community Center in Palo Alto, Calif., for atheist Sunday school.
An estimated 14% of Americans profess to have no religion, and among 18-to-25-year-olds, the proportion rises to 20%, according to the Institute for Humanist Studies. The lives of these young people would be much easier, adult nonbelievers say, if they learned at an early age how to respond to the God-fearing majority in the U.S. “It’s important for kids not to look weird,” says Peter Bishop, who leads the preteen class at the Humanist center in Palo Alto. Others say the weekly instruction supports their position that it’s O.K. to not believe in God and gives them a place to reinforce the morals and values they want their children to have.
#88
No. You misread my post. I was always referring to the proportion.
Here’s one link (albeit biased but it contains sources):
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/
A couple of stats show that atheists make up about 0.4%. I suspect the number is higher but that is the lowest number given. In 1997, atheists made up about 0.21%. I’d have to dig to find a more recent poll taken by the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
#89
> Nope. I’m equating the simple
> belief in a higher power with
> the simple belief that a higher
> power does not exist.
And *that* is why you [continue to] fail. Let’s take the following statements:
1. “I do not believe the claim that god exists”
2. “I believe that god does not exist”
Atheists are ONLY making the first statement. The second version is your warped variant of the first statement in which you inject a belief where none existed.
You have twisted the definition of religion to fit anyone and anything you want. Belief in Thor is a religion. Lack of belief in Thor is a religion. People that like dogs are religious. People that do not like dogs are religious. People that believe in purple fairies are religious. People that do not believe in purple fairies are religious and on it goes. You are changing definitions of words to fit your view of the world. Your definition of the word “religion” and “religious” can apply to damn near everything. Because you are not using the standard definitions for these terms, no one can take you seriously. It must be comforting to know that you can never have your beliefs challenged since you can always change the meaning of the words in the discussion in order to fit your preconceived notions.
Hey Mustard –I found your flaw. Probably just a variant of those already posted, but here goes==
Yes, belief in God is “dealing” with the supernatural, but no belief in god is NOT dealing with the supernatural.
God==supernatural world
Atheism==the natural world.
Now, if dealing with and not dealing with are just the same then we’re back in your tautology.
Mister mustard, as usual I must pull out the big guns when you are being obstinate. WIKIPEDIA!
“A religion is a social institution that includes a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term “religion” refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.”
What are the atheist rituals (other than kicking Mister Mustard)?
Do you know of any atheist prayers?..Blessless me non-god for I have unsinned?
What laws were passed down to us from a non-being? Thou shall is the same as thou shall not.?
What is theancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history for atheists, like an atheist Bible for instance? Or atheist scrolls?
There are no answers Mr. Mustard, but I warn you, non-answers are the same as answers, which are none.
>>No. You misread my post. I was always
>>referring to the proportion.
Thomas, Thomas, Thomas. How ever did you achieve sainthood with that limited comprehension??
No one is disputing the precentages of the population at large who are Christians, Atheists, and other religions. In fact, I have posted those same links myself in support of the idea that Atheism is, in fact, a religion (the sixth most popular in the world).
What we’re talking about (the only relevant statistic for this discussion) is the percentage of Christians who are in jail vs. the percentage of Atheists who are in jail.
>>1. “I do not believe the claim that
>>god exists”
>>2. “I believe that god does not exist”
>>
>>Atheists are ONLY making the first statement.
Oh no they’re not, Tommie, not even according to your own link. Those who describe themselves as “non-religious/ secular” (second most popular) make the first statement.
Atheologians are a whole different kettle of fish.
Sorry to hoist you on your own petard.
>>Yes, belief in God is “dealing” with the >>supernatural, but no belief in god is
>>NOT dealing with the supernatural.
Boboli, Boboli, Boboli. You think that by posting the same old thing, over and over again, you’re going to wear me down. For once, you may be right.
Atheists “deal with the supernatural” just as theists do; they’re just at the other end of the continuum.
For a quantitative look at the issue, check out St. Thomas’s link. The people you are referring to describe themselves as “non-religious/ secular”. Atheists have strong beliefs regarding the supernatural. It’s just a different belief than thiests; just as Catholicism is different from Judaism. The roses all smell the same though, and they’re all religious beliefs.
Mr. Mustard, a one man army to change the definition of religion, belief, atheist and secular so that he will no longer be taunted by the nasty ungod non-fearing nonners. 1000 pages of the “N” section will contain 14,000 non words all defined as religions.
>>WIKIPEDIA!
I guess they didn’t teach Boolean logic at your school, huh?
Any of the practices (as they relate to the supernatural) qualify the practioner as religious; they need not manifest ALL of the behaviors.
Just as with so many of the apologists for the Atheist faith, the answer to your question lies in the post itself
“The term “religion” refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.”
Note the phrase “personal practices related to communal faith”. If you put the Pope on a desert island, would he not be religious because he had no group rituals? Can illiterate people not be religious because they don’t partake of the written history of their religion?
>>What is the ancestral or cultural
>>traditions, writings, history for atheists
You might start here
http://tinyurl.com/3x76lw
or maybe the best-selling “God is Not Great: How Religions Poison Everything” by Christopher Hitchens. Not being an adherent of The Faith, I don’t generally seek out Atheist Scripture, but I know it’s out there. Those are just two examples that came to mind.
Well, maybe “I’m” being worn down as I meet you half way agreeing that “belief” systems can be involved.
But that is one giant step away from saying that all belief systems regarding god are religious in nature.
Not all animals with 4 legs are cats kind of logical error. Logic is an interesting field of study. You can ignore it if you want to.
I’ll conclude this thread absent something relevatory by observing that your religious beliefs don’t appear “standard” in that you blog more morally and scientific than many other religious proclaiming types, and likewise, you have your own belief in the meaning of words.
You are walking your own path Mr Mustard. Adament about not liking other people to assume what your position might be while constantly on this issue, telling atheist what they don’t believe is a religion. Very Blogworthy.
>>000 pages of the “N” section will
>>contain 14,000 non words all defined as
>>religions.
Nope. Just the nons that deal with God. Non-smokers, non-smokers, non-drinkers, non-conformists, none of them relate to religion. When it describes an unfounded belief (at least as unfounded as Christianity or Scientology) regarding a supreme being or a higher power, only THEN does it become a religion. I’m sorry if you’re embarrassed by that, but tough tits.
>>your religious beliefs don’t appear
>>“standard” in that you blog more morally
>>and scientific than many other religious
>>proclaiming types
That, Boboli, is because even among people that you admit to be religious, the beliefs are not homogeneous. It’s a personal thing. Some people believe that God tells them they can’t eat a ham & cheese sandwich, others believe that He tells them to shoot abortion doctors or to start a pointless war, others believe that there’s no God at all. In the end, the beliefs are all religious, linked by their common credence in something related to the supernatural.
>>likewise, you have your own belief in the
>>meaning of words.
You flatter me, Bobster. The notion that Atheism is a religious belief hardly started with me. In fact, it is fairly common among (non-Atheist) people who have given it any though. Logic, Bob. Your old friend. Just as rugby is a sport, so is figure skating (i.e., not playing rugby). One deeply-held conviction regarding God is the same as another, at least as far as that level of classification goes. Both sports. Both religions.
“Atheists “deal with the supernatural” just as theists do; they’re just at the other end of the continuum.”
Wrong, wrong, non-right !!! the non-religious only believe in facts, things that can be tested and verified.
Sorry Mr. Mustard. You can’t take part of a definition and claim it’s the whole thing. It’s like saying anything with branches is a tree.
>>Not all animals with 4 legs are cats kind of
>>logical error. Logic is an interesting field
>>of study. You can ignore it if you want to.
You might want to do a quick review of your “logic” texts, Pizza Man. Not all animals with 4 legs are not cats, just as not everyone who holds an opinion on the existence of God is not a Christian.
The former are all ANIMALS though, and the latter are all RELIGIONS.
>>You can’t take part of a definition and
>>claim it’s the whole thing.
Of course you can, if the definition contains a number of sub-parts, ANY ONE OF WHICH qualifies the object being described as falling within the definition. You need to brush up on your dictionary skills.
Or else affirm that you believe the desert-island Pope and the illiterate can not be “religious”, as they don’t fulfill every item in the list.
If the definition must contain all the parts mentioned, and you only use 1/3 of them to describe something else, that something else isn’t necessarily what you claim it is.
Antlers aren’t oak trees, even though they have branches.
>>If the definition must contain all the parts
>>mentioned, and you only use 1/3 of them to
>>describe something else, that something else
>>isn’t necessarily what you claim it is.
Who said the Wkipedia definition required all the parts mentioned? Only you, if you’re claiming that the isolated Pope an the illiterate holy roller are not religious.
>>Antlers aren’t oak trees, even though they
>>have branches.
Go have another Mai Tai, Jimbo. The quality of your content is decreasing by the post.
“A religion is a social institution that includes a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion ALSO encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term “religion” refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.”
#95
Wow. Just wow. You whiffed on both items.
You missed that the proportion of prisoners that claim themselves to be atheists is SMALLER than the general population. That link supports that very claim.
Second, it is your ignorant insistence that the two statements I mentioned are identical and thus indicate a belief that is preventing your from seeing past your mistake.
Is it even possible in your world to lack a belief in something? What do you call that?
You’re repeating yourself now, Jimmy. If you’re asserting that the Wikipedia definition of religion requires that ALL of those elements be present, you’ve just excluded the isolated Pope and the illiterate snake handler.
And as has been pointed out many times before, Wikipedia is great for a lowest-common-denominator overview of a topic. Sort of a glorified “if you go to church then you’re religious” approach. However, not everyone who is religious goes to church, and not everyone who goes to church is religious.
Logic and precision dictate that if one unfounded belief regarding the supernatural is a religion, so must another be. Although Christianity is not the same as Judaism which is not the same as Atheism, the key, defining characteristics are the same. A belief concerning the supernatural or a higher power, for which there is no objective, reproducible evidence.
Keep the faith, baby.
Mr. Mustard, I’m just bring the discussion back to reality. As in most religious discussions, theists, tend to muck up their yes/no answers with encyclopedias of convoluted misdirections to confuse and hide their non-answer.
Believe and belief are not the same, just similar. To believe in a fact is not the same as belief the the factless. Simple. There is no such thing as belief in a non-belief just there is no such thing as loving a non-love, or flying a non-fly.
i just started going to the Humanist Community in palo alto (the one mentioned) a couple of months ago. i think it’s great. it’s the best organization i’ve ever been involved with.
it’s far from perfect, but it’s definitely the right idea.
i’d encourage everyone to check out their local Humanist group. check out the aha page for a local chapter.
the Humanist Community website is here:
http://humanists.org/
🙂
This is a non-post. G’Night.
I don’t drink but I wish I did.
I think this is great. I’m an Atheist and I really think that the only thing I’ve missed out on, for not having religion, is the community aspect. I think that if you can have a good kid without religion then you’ve done the best job of any parent. After all, the employee who does a good job when he doesn’t think the boss is watching, is the best employee. If your reason to be good is a reward, then you’re not a good enough person.
>>You missed that the proportion of prisoners
>>that claim themselves to be atheists is
>>SMALLER than the general population. That
>>link supports that very claim.
Let me spell it out for you TrainMaster.
Atheists among the general population comprise somewhere between 0.2% and 0.4%. Athiests in prison comprise 0.209% (ignoring for the moment the recalcitrance of some inmates to describe themselves as “Atheists”, in favor of the more general “secular/ non-religious”. So they’re just about equal. On the other hand, Judeo-Christians comprise about 80% of the population at large; and about the same proportion of the prison population (although this is not described in your link; you have to go to the linked link (an Atheist web site, which gives the percentage of Atheists in the general population as “8% – 16%”, a completely bogus number, pulled out of their asses in an effort to make Atheists look more law-abiding).
And who gives a shit if Atheists are over- or under-represented in the prison population anyway? If you’re trying to argue that being an Atheist makes you more likely to follow the straight and narrow, maybe you’re right. Since a large number of convicts are in prison for drug offenses, maybe Atheists just don’t like to fire up a doobie. Maybe we should look at the percentage of Atheists in the armed forces.
>>Second, it is your ignorant insistence that >>the two statements I mentioned are identical.
I have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.
>>Is it even possible in your world to lack a
>>belief in something? What do you call that?
Sure. I lack a belief that women from Micronesia are good in bed; I lack a belief that “Burn Notice” will come back on TV next summer; I lack a belief that somewhere out in the universe there is intelligent life. Maybe, maybe not. For all of them. Is there a name for that? I don’t know. I know that if my beliefs, irrational and unfounded as they may be, pertain to the nature and existence of a higher power (no matter what those beliefs may be), they are RELIGIOUS beliefs.
>>This is a non-post. G’Night.
And yet it’s assigned a post number (124). Funny how that works, huh?
>>I’m an Atheist and I really think that the only
>>thing I’ve missed out on, for not having
>>religion, is the community aspect.
Stick around DU for a while. You’ll feel like a Lutheran at a pot-luck supper.
#116
RE: Religious “morality”
I am debunking the idiotic claim that Christians, or religious people in general, are “more moral.” One way to prove that is to show that the prison population proportions are the same as the general population or skewed against Christians which I have done.
Re-read post #88.
1. I do not believe the claim that god exists.
2. I believe that god does not exist.
These two statements are not the same. The first one simply withholds credibility to a claim whereas the second one has been warped so that it appears as if it is professing a belief.
In mathematics, this is akin to explaining to people the difference between nothing and the empty set.
Atheists are professing no belief. Rather they simply are falsifying the theist claim that a god exists in the same way a scientist falsifies an unproven hypothesis. To read anything beyond that, such as that atheism is a religion, is to twist the words you put into people’s mouths.
> I know that if my beliefs, irrational and unfounded as they
> may be, pertain to the nature and existence of a higher
> power (no matter what those beliefs may be), they are
> RELIGIOUS beliefs.
That is a “beg the question error” in that you presuming the existence of something supernatural. It would mean that people that do not believe in Thor is a religion and people that do not believe Ra is a religion and people that do not believe in Turd Demons is a religion. It is an error of logic. Lack of belief is not belief just as lack of trying is not trying and lack of attention is not attention and lack of morality is not morality.
Holy Crap! Burn Notice isn’t coming back next Summer??????
How come everything I like gets canceled?
I don’t BELIEVE THAT! from the Church of the Burn Notice.
>>I am debunking the idiotic claim that
>>Christians, or religious people in general,
>>are “more moral.”
Who the fuck claimed that? Jimmy Swaggart? Ted Haggard? I certainly never did. You’ll have to take it up with one of them.
>>Re-read post #88.
>>1. I do not believe the claim
that god exists.
>>2. I believe that god does not exist.
>>
>>These two statements are not the same.
Fuckin’ A right they’re not the same. The first is the utterance of someone who proclaims him- or herself to be “secular/ non-religious”. The second is the staement of an Atheist.
>>Lack of belief is not belief just as lack of
>>trying is not trying and lack of attention
>>is not attention and lack of morality is not >>morality.
I think you’re failing the “beg the question” test here, Pascal. Intentional immorality is stating a moral position; trying to do something OTHER than the task at hand is an intentional act, and deliberately attending to something other than the topic at hand is an attentional issue.
Just as taking an affirmative stance on the existence of a higher power (“God does not exist”) is a religious point of view.
Saying “well…I dunno, maybe, maybe not, show me some proof” is a far cry from the Atheist anthem that God does not exist. In spite of your continuing efforts to backpeddle and downgrade the Atheist point of view into what is more accurately “secular/ non-religous”, it’s not working. Except in the Gospel According to St. Thomas, where words mean whatever you say they mean.
For all your tossing-about of mathematics, logic, and science, you could use a little tune-up on your debate skills there, dude. Not to mention a little brushing up on mathematics, logic, and science.