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How does it feel to live in a country in which you have to protest against your own government’s violation of human rights? I can’t believe this isn’t a bad dream.
#31
“no one would be happier to see all the faux conservatives go down”
For starters, get rid of all the double sided Evangelicals who think an orgasm is worst than genocide.
You want an example of all that BS you’ve been preaching?
Just see how “well” it has worked for the Israelis to treat the Palestinians like sh*t.
>>No, waterboarding isn’t the same as cutting
>>off body parts.
No, it’s not. And cutting off body parts isn’t the same as flaying someone, removing every square inch of their skin, pouring acid on the raw flesh as they die in mortal agony over the course of long, unendurable days.
So what? Flaying is torture, cutting off body parts is torture, and waterboarding is torture.
The fact that some in our contry have sunk to the depths of the enemy makes me fearful that the enemy has won. We have become our own worst enemy.
And if it’s OK to torture those knuckle-dragging ragheads, how about torturing accused American murderers? Accused bank robbers? Accused check kiters? Accused jaywalkers? Someone who speaks out against the government?
How about if we have government-sponsored torture of everybody they don’t like? That’s where we’re headed.
#27 Then you are indeed lost. And those evil people that seek to destroy our compassion, our humanity have suceeded.
There is no profit in fighting evil with evil. If we use the arts and devices of the enemy we BECOME the enemy.
Cursor_
I hope you people who claim to be OK with this are kidding. If you are not, you are the most disgusting, reprehensible, cowardly morons it has ever been my misfortune to discover. Torture has been proven time and again not to work. So if you think that torture is OK, then it must be for reasons that exclude information gathering. This means that you are sick, deranged people who delight in the misery of others.
Have we become Soviets in the last 8 years? Because this is how Soviets behaved. Our country that once took a stand (at least publicly) against this sort of behavior now tries to ham handedly justify this cruelty in the name of fighting terror. Any of you who believe it is acceptable to torture someone for any reason should be ashamed of your selves!
#35 MM thank you for stating what I thought was obvious. Water boarding torture plain and simple. Just because it is less severe then other methods does not negate its status.
#2
If I’m not mistaken, that is the same as many supermax prisons in the US. In addition, most supermax prisons confine prisoners 22.5 hours out of the day. Strangely, the anti-capital punishment crowd does not consider this to be torture.
#11
The *BIG* difference is that we were at war with a “civilized” nation-state with whom we knew we would be negotiating prisoner treatment after the war. Washington was simply look ahead to the politics following the war. The terrorists that are kept at Guantanamo, presuming we believe them to be terrorists, have no nation with which we can negotiate the treatment of prisoners (ours and theirs) and it appears they have no reservation in torturing *and* killing soldiers they capture.
The Geneva conventions applies to wars against nations that signed the Geneva convention. During WWII, the Marines almost never took Japanese prisoners because of the treatment of US soldiers by the Japanese (who by the way had not signed the Geneva convention).
#37
> Torture has been proven
> time and again not to work.
Not correct. People would not use torture if it were completely ineffective. It is effective to a point and only on certain people. After that point, it is ineffective and inaccurate. There are more humanitarian and political reasons for not using torture that have nothing to do with its effectiveness. If you go to war with a nation and torture its prisoners, they will do the same. The problem with terrorists is that there is no “nation” and they have tortured our prisoners (and killed them).
>>People would not use torture if it were >>completely ineffective. It is effective
>>to a point
If by “effective” you mean getting people to say whatever it is you want to hear (with no regard for whether or not it’s true), then yes, it is effective.
Not so effective at eliciting the truth, not to mention barbarian and evil.
But that’s OK with some folks.
#40
Not true. If no useful information *ever* came from torture, people would never have used it. Clearly, that is not the case. Obviously some useful information has been derived over the years even when the victim has attempted to give false or placating information. It is very difficult under stress to be intentionally deceiving.
There are better reasons to do away with torture than falsely claiming it to be ineffective. Not only are there more effective means, but there are valid political, military and yes, humanitarian reasons for eliminating its use.
The constitution is for AMERICANS – not the world. <— darn right! now im scared of America. =( But still, I admire the pillars of American democracy.
Terrorists, Iran, the Taliban – they don’t care – they’ll torture, suicide bomb and kill us with no concern for rules. <— agree. do they care? heck these terrorists recently bombed our Philippine Congress claiming 4 lives in the process. For goodness sake, somewhat I agree with CIA’s interrogation procedures. I am not advocating it, but if for the defense of all, this could help at anyway, then, we can root out these so called TERRORISTS!
I got an idea. How about we take all of our prisoners and force them to sit around a campfire and sing Kumbaya.
Can’t take away their Quran because that’s torture. Can’t take away a convicts TV because that’s torture.
Taking pictures of someone on a leash it torture. Stacking a bunch of naked guys up in a pyramid is torture.
#37 U – Last 8 years. Give me a break. There people go again thinking this has suddenly popped up during Bush’s watch. Right, none of it has ever happened before.
When will you all learn that we are not fighting people who give two shits about you, your family or anyone you know because they just want you dead. You are an infidel and they win a big prize for killing you. If they die in the process even better. Our job is to help them meet Allah sooner.
I gotta go now, my water board is getting out of the shop today and I want to see how it works…
I don’t cry over anything the USA does that gets labelled as “torture”.
Any torture the USA does is pretty mild stuff and only really big weenies complain about it.
Real torture is like that Jewish guy that got beheaded in Pakistan.
I prefer a USA that uses mild “torture” (aka discomfort) against the enemy vs. being a spineless country.
Hey,!!!! Leave Gunga Din alone!
Torture is to use any means that would inflict will breaking discomfort so that the person being tortured will give up information. This discomfort level is different for each individual. Sometimes just the sight of a gun causes person to speak but other times harsher actions will have to be necessary. Saying that water boarding is not torture is incorrect. Water boarding is torture for some people. While killing family members or cutting off fingers may be torture to others.
If you want freedoms then you must grant others with the same freedoms. Otherwise you are just a dictator living a privileged life by suppressing others.
To have the most freedoms, the nation must pursue a path leading to anarchy.
tchamp2 said, No military on earth tries harder to avoid civilian deaths than the USA.
I used to believe that, too. I’m not so sure anymore.
What makes you think our military tries harder to avoid civilian deaths than — let’s say — Canada, Sweden or Germany?
From what we’ve learned about the difference between Britain and the US rules of engagement in Iraq, the US was far quicker on the trigger; far more likely to use lethal force.
And — surprise! — the Brits had a better relationship with the local population.
Of course, the BEST way to avoid civilian deaths is to avoid needless wars — and a whole lot of countries are better at that than America. (but that blame lays solidly on the politician and the population which elects them, than on the military.)
The CIA could be easily eliminated and nobody would notice the difference. The USA has 10 intelligence agencies (the CIA is smaller than the NRO and the NSA) and none of them protected us from 9/11.
>>Can’t take away a convicts TV
>>because that’s torture.
If you think that prisoners in Gitmo or Abu Ghraib had TV sets, you’re even dumber than Dumbya.
And if you think that waterboarding and “stress positions” are the same thing as taking away the Koran or television, you’re just too dumb to live.
#50 MM – Nope, just pointing out how stupid some people are when it comes to telling what torture is. It really is in the eye of the beholder. You are making my point for me.
I would also like to point out for the mentally challenged that I did not say anything about a prisoner in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib.
As for too dumb to live, that sounds threatening. I sure hope you aren’t going to torture me, which by the way would be taking away your inane drivel. Please don’t do that missah mussard.
>>I would also like to point out for the
>>mentally challenged that I did not say
>>anything about a prisoner in Guantanamo or
>>Abu Ghraib.
“FWIW I don’t support torture. I’m not talking about college hazing like Abu Ghraib.”
-Steve Msg #10
Uhh, Steve-O. Who is it that’s mentally challenged?
As to torture being in the eye of the beholder, I guess in borderline cases, it may be. However, just like pornography or art, we knew it when we see it. And waterboarding is most assuredly torture. It may not leave marks, just like beating someone with a rubber hose may not leave marks. They’re both torture though, no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it.
And as to “inane drive”, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are making less and less sense as your posts continue.
#52 MM – If you keep making my point I won’t have to respond any more.
You said exactly what I said. It is in the eye of the beholder. You say water boarding is and I say it isn’t.
Signed
Steve-o
(not pictured: the grieving families of the car bomb that this guy built that blew a bunch of people in the local market into little pieces)
But you’re right – uncomfortable positions are just as inhumane!
>>You said exactly what I said. It is in the
>>eye of the beholder. You say water boarding
>>is and I say it isn’t.
No, I said the diametric opposite of what you said, Steve-O.
Just about everyone who’s not a sadistic barbarian, from the Geneva Convention to the ACLU, considers waterboarding torture.
I would suggest those who consider it to be like “college hazing” try it themselves. Even a pussy should be able to withstand a little “discomfort”, right? After all, it’s not like getting your head cut off, or your skin removed inch by inch.
The mere fact that we Americans are debating torture reveals that bin Laden dealt a HUGE blow to traditional American values on 911.
54 Stiffler said: “(not pictured: the grieving families of the car bomb that this guy built that blew a bunch of people in the local market into little pieces)”
Also not pictured: The fellow squatting on the box reluctantly explaining where that bomb factory is located.
Also not pictured: Same fellow in tiny prison cell unable to tell his own daughter to blow him a kiss.
RBG