theRabidQuill » Blog Archive » Frontal Assault on Freedom: FBI Raids Liberty Dollar
Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:
I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.
For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.
We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money.
But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken.
This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too.
I’m not sure what is going on here but I suspect that the assoication with Ron Paul has something to do with it. I have noticed that the right-wing talk show hosts who are fronts for the Bush wing of the Republican party began yesterday to smear Paul by associating his with Neo-Nazis, white supremicists and skinheads. It is interesting to watch this phenomenon. Now this. Apparently someone thinks he is an actual threat to the machine.
If the government went after Ron Paul it means that he is the guy we have to vote for!
Thanks FBI, I have no doubt now.
Hmm, the dollar is falling and a barter currency purveyor has its gold coin stockpiles confiscated as the price of gold skyrockets.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Seriously, though, like Rob, I want to see this documented in something other than a blog. Is this for real or is it below the radar of the mainstream media?
If the computers were taken, then how did they have the email addresses?
The govt can make or break laws because it has the military to back it up – and the military is pretty damn good at following orders… if not think them through first…
@#27: I totally agree — you’ll see at the end of #21, paragraph 2, “I won’t venture into the territory that is paper money except to say this: my cousin asked how we can be in debt, if all we need to do is print more money…”
My cousin is a white rapper that believes there is value in ‘the Benjamins’… he’s also an 8th-grade drop-out. 🙁
“I was only half listening last week to a commercial on tv for some private mint willing to sell its product as “legal currency.” That caught my ear as only the Feds can print/press money?
Pretty straight forward and sensible violation of the law if that is what this group was doing?”
That is why they didn’t press any charges? If it was so illegal you would think that they would do the minimum and press charges, but they didn’t. The currency was never offered to be legal tender. It is considered barter currency if anything. So without due process of law the lively hood of a untold amount of people was affected. Property was taken without any charges. That is illegal in itself.
Hi Vincent:
I call this operation “shady” (not immoral — that’s your word) because they appear to be trying to dupe people into paying real money for novelty money. Just go read their fly-by-night Web site for more.
Also, as pointed out by #33 and #38, the only evidence of this “raid” at all is this one email, purportedly sent out by the founder of the company. The Evansville Post-Courier covered this “event” but their only evidence of the raid was the email itself. The FBI did not comment, probably because they have no idea what the reporter was talking about. Despite the protestations of the tinfoil hat crowd, the law enforcement community doesn’t typically do things like this in secret. In fact, they like to tip the media off far in advance so there will cameras there to film FBI guys walking out of the offices with bankers’ boxes.
And to #38’s question, if all the customer records were somehow confiscated, why was the founder able to send out these emails? Are the email addresses in no way connected to order history? Did the FBI manage the extremely technically impressive feat of bisecting a CRM solution — taking the order histories while leaving the emails intact? Hard to swallow.
So the best case scenario for the public, as far as I can tell, is that the FBI raided this business on suspicion that they violated federal law by selling barter currency under the false pretense that it is backed legitimately. They may be guilty or they may be innocent. The lawyers will sort that out.
The worst case scenario is that this company sold novelty items for real cash (again, you can’t buy Liberty Dollars with other Liberty Dollars — only with U.S. dollars), and found itself unable or unwilling to even ship out a bunch of orders. So they prey on the conspiracy-minded government paranoia of their few customers, pretend they’ve been raided, and keep the cash. Not saying that’s what happened, but if it did, it sounds pretty “shady,” no?
I think we’re all missing the point here.. And that is that every time Evansville, IN makes national news it’s because of some stupid crap or just general bad news!
Being a resident of Evansville, I’m tired of it! A local boy shoots at the White House (way to represent, junior), local Wal-Mart employees kill a cat under supposed direction of their supervisor (IQ = total number of teeth), tornadoes kill a bunch of people (there’s no place like home), man gets stuck in a chimney (search YouTube, you’ll find it) and now our local “constitutional loophole currency wannabe” makes the headlines. Evansville’s not that bad, guys, really!! 🙂
Shiny rocks and pieces of paper! Hmmm, if memory serves, weren’t officers of the law paid about $20.00 in gold during the later part of the 1800’s? And aren’t modern day counter parts paid at least $2500.00 per month? Seems like both currency pieces have lost value to me. Just cann’t get away from that pestky third law of thermodynamics. The whole universe is inflatting. …..I know a $20.00 gold piece weights more than an oz. and I hope policemen make more than a fastfood worker, But that makes the point even more. Both the shiny rock and the paper lose value. The paper just does it faster!
Expect these types of things to continue…Ron Paul is above the current system, people love it, and he’s a threat to the status quo. That’s scaring a TON of people, and the system is going to do all it can to keep Paul out.
It’s why it is more important than ever to show your support for the only candidate in years who actually supports real change in Washington.
RonPaul2008.com
42) “I call this operation “shady” (not immoral — that’s your word) because they appear to be trying to dupe people into paying real money for novelty money. Just go read their fly-by-night Web site for more.”
I didn’t know a company that has been around for 10 years could be described as fly-by-night. That is why 90% of the currency they make is made out of rare metals? A small faction of that money was notes. All the metals that backed the notes where held at a 3rd party mint with 3rd party audits. The raid did happen. The FBI already admitted to it, but would not list the details. Now people are screwed thanks to the FBI’s actions. The notes are no longer backed by any metals.
http://reason.com/blog/show/123553.html
Some posters have questioned why gold and silver, nothing more than shiny rocks, are considered by so many to be the only ‘real’ currency. This is a good question. Gold and silver are valuable for their industrial and decorative uses, but this is not the foundation of the idea that they are money.
I think the primary reason is simply tradition. Most of humanity recognizes that other people will accept gold as payment. This leads one to the core idea of ‘money’. Money is a barter good. Money is a special barter good because it is ubiquitous and widely accepted. But why gold, and not, say, printed slips of paper? Because gold and silver are difficult or impossible to counterfeit, which means that you know you’re getting a fair trade.
This works in a society where the total value of tradeable things (goods and services) is relatively slow-changing. Including gold (it’s just a tradeable good). This means that prices are stable, so you don’t have to go to as much trouble trying to figure out how much gold to trade for something.
Now lets say you have a sudden abundance of goods and services, and lots of population growth. What happens? One of the factors that made gold and sliver useful, the slow growth of supply, suddenly gets to be a major problem. The quantity of stuff you want to trade is growing really fast, but there isn’t any growth of the money supply. What do you do? You can’t make more gold and sliver. You could use paper based not just on gold and sliver, but on a whole basket of other metals, but that makes the problem worse, you’ve got a hundred different exchange rates, all changing all the time.
So you go to a fiat currency. Currency is based on faith in the ability of a central agency to police it and administer it such that the quantity of money in circulation tracks the quantity of goods and services. This keeps prices stable, keeps money available, and ensures that some guy won’t try printing his own (or at least keeps it to a bare minimum so people don’t get screwed very often).
The problem comes in when that central agency isn’t acting rationally. For example, they might assume that growth is infinite and so make the mechanism for adding currency to the system based on loan-making through a fractional reserve system, creating what we call a debt-based currency.
See, the problem isn’t fiat based currency. That’s actually a pretty good idea because it’s scalable and controllable. The problem is that the people in charge of it are making bad decisions about how to manage it. Now that we’re in so deep, its really hard to change how it’s done. Hindsight, ya know?
A proper system would be managed directly by the federal government, not a bank. The government would keep track of the economy and adjust the money supply based on the availability of goods and services. As part of the system they might set up a system of national federal sales taxes (no exemptions for any sort of dollar-based sale) and national dividend where they pay money to directly to each citizen (don’t get too excited, it would probably be a bit less then poverty level income). The balance of tax and dividend would be manipulated to balance cash against goods and services.
Yes, they affect each other, but so do many other factors. The government could deliberately inflate or deflate the currency at will (and even by locality or employment if they deemed it necessary) to maintain a healthy economy. Want more people in a given area? Pay a greater dividend there and tax less.
That part is just an idea. The point is that the government should not rely on the arcane manipulations of a bank to create money through loans and interest rate manipulation, particularly with the entire system built on the idea that in the future there will always be more money than today. It’s a bad idea, and IMO, we’re stuck for it, regardless of what Ron Paul would like to do.
As far as how the “customers” were contacted, it was probably through a public server such as Yahoo Groups as opposed to privately owned computers from their office.
The was a blog post somewhere with pictures of the business still open the next day, why/how could it be open if all their equipment was taken? In the news article from the hometown paper, I still feel after reading it that it may not have really happened because most of the quoted material is from the e-mail press release that was sent out from the owner. I for one am still skeptical that this really happened and that the guy has taken off with everyones money.
Follow-up to my previous post. It appears this has now been picked up by the wire service, but I am still reading the same things, just what the owner has to say as no one else in law enforcement will comment. There is also a faxed copy of the search warrant on his website. A faxed copy? That also doesn’t sound right, but I also have never been given a warrant.
This is the most disturbing and infuriating piece of news I’ve heard in a long time… The fact that the government even has the ability to do this is terribly authoritarian, the fact that they DID do it is, well… scary.
Maybe the FBI was trying to bring attention to Ron Paul…. Blow back anyone? 😉
#5 – It would be like the feds busting down your door for trading someone a cow for a DS and some games.
What is the value of a cow, these days?
For all yall nay-sayers, if you havent noticed our economy is on the skids. We need an intelligent economist to begin to try and salvage our currency after years of looting by the Clinton-Bush crime syndicate. Dr. Paul is on the House Finance Commitee (see him in action on youtube-ronpaulownzbernanke) to hear him take Bernanke apart was music to my ears. Just imagine having a president that could actually make a complete sentence! The recent coin raid was a cheap attempt to discredit the Paul campaign but it has backfired. There is no such thing as bad publicity. We love Ron Paul because he speaks the truth,no promises just the hope of restoring our rights and freedoms. You will not find one person in the congress that will say anything deneaning about him. He has respect even from his opponents(many criminals) a respect he has earned by allways voting according to his adherence to the constitution and what he deems moral and ethical. I wish I could say I had been married to the same woman for 50 years. No money from lobbies,no scandals, we need honesty and integrity. The one issue that binds us together as Paul supporters is liberty. Truth is freedom. Hope for America.
#47 codesuidae
You give a not bad argument against a Federal Reserve type of system without going into any sort of Conspiracy nuttiness. Just a few things though. The Federal Reserve already operates under the government as a private entity. That means it gets no funding from the government, so it must pay its own way. It is already answerable to the Congress and its profits goes to the Treasury. I understand that you see the failure of a central banking system being dependent on human stupidity. I would criticize your proposal and say that the same sort of stupidity could affect a more “public” or governmental control of the money supply. It would also have the added benefit of being within reach of politicians to change at their whim for whatever populist agenda that takes fancy.
Codesuidae – is the lending by the Federal Reserve the issue, or is it the borrowing by a nation of consumers whose happiness seems dependent on shopping?
The greatest difference between Europe and the US, to me, is that we (in the US) seem to feel stifled if we can’t buy everything we want. Europeans buy stuff (obviously) but don’t seem so frenetic about the process.
Of course the world’s economies are dependent on trade (the production-consumption-destruction cycle).
Yours was a excellent post.
Imagine you were the only person in your community who was allowed by law to print money. If anyone wanted (or needed) to use your money, they would have to borrow it from you with interest. Don’t you think it would give you a little power?
Extrapolate that thought to a national or global level and you will understand why you have the money system you do. It’s about the power to control economy and people ….nothing more.
Liberty Dollars are a threat which you will understand more fully as you see the US dollar head down in value to rate with Continentals or Confederate States money.
Enjoy the ride…..
http://www.lfsindy.com/anorexicpillow/blog/?p=99
If we Ron doesn’t get elected I think our last option is to succeed.
#55 Jack Fortin
Imagine a place where anyone can print money. Would your money be worthless outside of the city where you live, or your neighborhood, or Block? This was already done with horrible results in the 1800’s. Think of a very early S&L scam.
What is wrong with a Federal Government Guaranteeing a money standard?
As far as the LIberty Dollar keeping its value. If you want to pay a premium for their Silver and Gold pieces, fine with me. If you think their copper or paper certificates are worth anything than go for it.
#56 Justin
I am glad you are rooting for success
I keep seeing a major point being missed here about the Liberty Dollars.
Yes, A1S8 authorizes Congress to coin money and set its value.
However, it is not set there as an exclusive delegation of power. The Founders never claimed that the powers delegated to Congress were denied to the People, and they could have just as easily claimed that when the wrote the whole thing in the same way they denied powe4rs to the states. Yet they did not.
Yes, A1S10 prohibits states from coining money.
But neither of those mention the People at all.
Now look at Am10, which limits delegated powers of the federal government and reserves the rest to the states and People. Am9 points out that non-enumerated rights of the People exist along with the enumerated rights listed in the BoR and the Constitution.
Putting it all together: the federal government can coin money, but the states cannot, but there is no such prohibition on the People, and in fact they have a rather obvious right to do so. That’s what was happenning with Liberty Dollars. NORFED is not and never has been a state or part of a state. It was a private organization.
Therefore nothing they did was illegal.
As yourself this: Would this be legal if it was baseball cards? Does a Nolan Ryan Rookie have more value than a Troy Tulowitzki and less than a Rogers Hornsby T206? Yes, *if* you believe that those specifc pieces of pasteboard have those values. What if those cards are made from porcelain or 22K gold foil (I have some of both)? How does the material change the value? Why does limiting an edition to X of Y make it increase in value?
As a disclaimer, I am a RP supporter, but his association with this is accidental and is being exploited by the media for cheap exposure. I own no Liberty Dollars personally and have nothing to do with the company.
Below is a list of some of the alternate currencies here in the USA. Some are called “hours’ some are called “Blue Money”, “Cape Anne Dollars”.
Out of the list below they went after the “Liberty Dollar”. It might be just me but it is probably to shed a negative light on Congressman Paul’s campaign.
* Amesbury Hours Amesbury, Massachusetts
* Anacostia Hours [1] Mount Rainier, Maryland
* Area Bucks Palo Alto, California
* Atlanta Hours Atlanta, Georgia
* Bainbridge Island Bucks Bainbridge Island, Washington
* Baltimore Hours [2] Baltimore, Maryland
* Barter Bucks Indianapolis, Indiana
* Bay Area Bucks [3] Traverse City, Michigan
* Berea Bucks Berea, Kentucky
* Berkeley Barter Network Berkeley, California
* Berkeley Bread Berkeley, California
* BerkShares, Southern Berkshires, Massachusetts
* BloomingHours [4] Bloomington, Indiana
* Blue Money Brattleboro, Vermont
* BNI [5] Delaware, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey
* Boise Hours Boise, Idaho
* Brattleboro Hours Chesterfield, New Hampshire
* Brookings Bucks Brookings, South Dakota
* Brooklyn Greenbacks Brooklyn, New York
* Buffalo Hours Buffalo, New York
* Buffalo Mountain Hours Hardwick, Vermont
* Bull City Bucks Durham, North Carolina
* Burlington Bread [6] Burlington, Vermont
* Butte Bucks Crested Butte, Colorado
* Cape Anne Dollars Gloucester, Massachusetts
* Capitol Area Self-Sustaining Hours Albany, New York
* Carbondale Spuds Carbondale, Colorado
* Chenango Hours New Berlin, New York
* Columbia County Hours Philmont, New York
* Columbia Hours Columbia, Missouri
* Community Cash Durango, Colorado
* Cuyahoga Hours Cleveland, Ohio
* Dillo Hours Austin, Texas
* Disney Dollar Disneyland and Disneyworld
* Flagstaff Neighborly Notes [7] Flagstaff, Arizona
* Floyd Hours Floyd, Virginia
* Fourth Corner Exchange [8] Pacific Northwest
* Great Lakes Hours Detroit, Michigan
* Green Mountain Hours [9] Montpelier, Vermont
* Greyhound Bucks Taft, Texas
* Hero dollar Minneapolis, Minnesota
* High Desert Dollars Prescott, Arizona
* Hobo Dough South Dakota State University, Brookings, South Dakota
* Hollandollars Holland, Michigan
* Houston Hours Houston, Texas
* Humboldt Hours Eureka, California
* Humboldt exchange community currency Arcata, California
* Ithaca Hours Ithaca, New York
* Kansas City Barter Bucks Kansas City, Missouri
* Kauai Barter and Trade Network [10] Kilauea, Hawaii
* Kettle River Hours Kettle Falls, Washington
* Kitsap Hours Bremerton, Washington
* Lehigh Valley Barter Hours Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
* Liberty Dollars [11] Evansville, IN
* Lopez Island Hours Lopez Island, Washington
* Madison Hours [12] Madison, Wisconsin
* Mendocino SEED Fort Bragg, California
* Middletown Cash Middletown, CT, Wesleyan University
* Milwaukee Hours Milwaukee, Wisconsin
* Missoula Hours Missoula, Montana
* Mo’ Money [13] New Orleans, Louisiana
* Mountain Money [14] Mars Hill, North Carolina
* NOCO Hours [15]Fort Collins, Greeley, and Loveland, Colorado
* North Fork Helping Hands Paonia, Colorado
* PDXhours Portland, Oregon
* P.E.N. Neighborhood Exchange Takoma Park, Maryland
* Plenty [16] Carrboro, North Carolina
* Portage Hours Kent, Ohio
* REAL Dollars [17] Lawrence, Kansas
* RiverHOURS [18]Columbia River Gorge, USA
* San Luis Obispo Hours San Luis Obispo, California
* Sand Dollars Bolinas, California
* Santa Barbara Hours Santa Barbara, California
* Santa Fe Hours Santa Fe, New Mexico
* Santa Monica Hours Santa Monica, California
* Sequoia Hours Garberville, California
* Simply Hours Columbus, Ohio
* Skagit Dollars Mount Vernon, Washington
* Sonoma County Community Cash Santa Rosa, California
* Stoneridge Hours Kerhonkson, New York
* Summit Hours Akron, Ohio
* Thread City Bread Willimantic, Connecticut
* Time Bucks [19] Seattle, Washington
* Tulsa Hours Tulsa, Oklahoma
* Ukiah Hours [20] Ukiah, California
* Valley Dollars Greenfield, Massachusetts
* Waldo Hours Unity, Maine
* Wash Bucks Sioux City, Iowa
* Wooster Hours Apple Creek, Ohio
#59 Out of the list you posted Liberty Dollars are the only ones that seem to market themselves nationally and as a viable alternative to Federal Notes. And Disney Dollars? Really?
From the U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 8:
“The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money, regulate the value thereof…”
and “To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;”
and in Section 10:
“No State shall… coin Money;…make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts…”
Thus, in the first example we see that the prevailing law states clearly that Congress may coin money – the ‘official’ money of the U.S, to be used in the official financial transactions of the US.; and that they may provide for the punishment of those who counterfeit said official money. However there is nothing in the prevailing law which prohibits The People from exchanging gold or silver (in the form of coins or otherwise) for goods or services received.
In the second example, the prevailing law specifically prohibits the States from coining their own official money or using anything other than gold or silver coin as official tender for the repayment of the debts of said State. Again, there are no provisions herein to prohibit The People from using gold or silver (or anything else of value, for that matter) to exchange for goods or services.
Since the Liberty Dollar is clearly not an attempt to counterfeit existing official US coinage, there is no violation of the prevailing law; and since there is no prevailing law prohibiting The People from using items of value which they possess in exchange for items of value that someone else possesses, there is no violation of law in using the Liberty Dollar to purchase goods or services from someone who is willing to accept it as tender.
It is quite obvious to anyone with a brain and the ability to use it that the Treasury Department, the FBI (and whatever other alphabet agencies were involved in this raid) have overstepped their constitutional authority. In fact, the reasonable citizen can clearly see that they have, yet again, committed a blatant crime against The People. What is sad is that, based upon some of the responses contained herein, a good many Americans don’t understand this, and they are willing to let the very same government tell them what the law says, rather than reading it for themselves and forming an educated opinion of their own.
How long will it take before citizens of this nation finally begin to realize that this government has stolen their birthright?
This raid is nothing new for our federal government. These guys can come and get you anytime they want for any reason. Do you think they are not reading everything on this web site and have your number too? Let’s face it, we lost our freedoms very slowly over a long period of time. Back when comunism was the big threat, our government in the name of security did unconstitutional things to many US citizens. That was in the 40’s and 50’s.
We already live in a police state. Think about what it is you can do without the government’s OK. Can you get married, go fishing, frive a car, go to school, start a business, own a property, own a dog, boat, plane, operate heavy equipment, buy or sell just about anything, have an occupation, build a home or other structure, use your land, etc, etc, etc! They have us and they have all the real money and way more guns. I am not sure there is anything we can do about it.
Now the Supreme Court is reviewing our constitutional right to bare arms …. the question is does this apply to the average US citizen or to stae militias? Seriously, there is a question about this. If the ruling comes down agaist the indivual right to bare arms then it is really over for our freedoms.
Our congressmen are elected we have hope in this and our jury trials give us great hope. In a jury trial we determine what the law is, if a judge says he’ll instruct you as to the law, don’t listen, you make the law as a member of a jury. It’s called jruy nulification, you find a fellow citizen inocent because the law is wrong in your viewpoint. These two places are where we can recover our freedoms.
Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution, “No State shall; coin Money; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;….
My taxes returned from the state come in the form of paper and nickel, not gold and silver. Violating constitutional law.
If states cannot coin money, but must use it as payment, the federal government must make gold and silver coin available as a form of tender.
(they are legally obligated by the constitution to coin gold and silver to be available to states as tender for payment of debts.)
e.g; all state workers must be paid in gold and silver. All taxes must be paid in gold and silver, all contracts paid with state money must be paid in gold and silver, etc…. the only way a state can pay for ANYTHING is with gold and silver. Anything else is a violation of the constitution of the united states of america. . . .
Period