Fedora 8 came out today and quite frankly, it sucks. I’m a Fedora user and I run Fedora on about 10 servers right now, including this one that hosts Dvorak Uncensored. But even though I’m a fan I think that it’s time to end the intellectual welfare that all the Linux reviewers give it and raise the bar to the same standards that commercial software is judged by. What is that standard you ask? It’s the standard of “does it work”. My conclusion – no – it doesn’t. Fedora 8 is broken.
I downloaded the 64 bit released version. My hardware is as follows:
1. Motherboard A8N-VM CSM
2. CPU: AMD 4400+ dual core processor
3. 4 gigs of ram
4. Maxtor 300gb SATA II drive
5. Monitor Samsung Syncmaster 912n 1280×1024
I did a generic install using all the defaults. The only thing I did unique was the root password. The install appeared to go fine. Did a reboot and it took 10 minutes to come up. It got stuck on loading Sendmail until something timed out. Eventually it came to in 800×600 resolution by default in spite of the fact that my screen is 1280×1024. The first thing I noticed was that the cursor was missing. Technically it was there – but you couldn’t see it. This by itself makes it fail the “just works” test.
Being an expert, I already know to try to disable the fancy GUI boot-up to get the cursor back but the average person doesn’t know that, nor should they. So after switching to text mode and editing the /boot/grub/grub.conf file and rebooting, I managed to get the system up with a cursor.
But since I had a 1280×1024 screen, I wanted to see it in the resolution that the screen supports. So I ran the display configuration and set the Monitor to Samsung 712n which was on their list. Now if this were a Windows computer, I wouldn’t have had to do that because Windows just knows what monitor you hook up.
After selecting the correct monitor, I returned to select the resolution and even though I had selected a 1280×1024 monitor I still couldn’t select anything bigger than 800×600. So I tried a reboot thinking maybe after it boots up with the new monitor setting, then it would give me the choices for the resolution. But after the reboot, it came up in some strange mode that was something like 1370×768, which is beyond the dimensions of the selected monitor.
I could have started trying to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file but decided f*ck it. Why should I spend several more hours on Fedora 8 just trying to get it to work with a standard size screen? I have better things to do. Yes, if I wanted to, I could eventually get it to work but why should I?
So then I downloaded the “Live DVD” for the 64 bit version, the i386 version is called “Live CD” which is what they used to call it in Fedora 7 until I pointed out that the size of the image file they put out was too big to fit on a CD. I filed a bug report and the response was “Won’t Fix”. So I download the Fedora 8 version called “Live DVD” but when I went to burn it, the burner software said that the image can’t be burned onto a DVD because it was in CD format.
So – the bottom line is that when tested on a standard system using hardware that is about 2 years old, it just plain doesn’t work. On first boot there was no cursor. Once I fixed that, it failed to adjust to the resolution of my monitor. And the “Live DVD” image is formatted for a CD but to big to fit on a CD. I’m not going to report this as a bug because if I get another “won’t fix,” it’s really going to piss me off.
The bottom line is – it doesn’t work. Fedora 8 is as bad as Fedora 7. It’s broken and it sucks.
Like I said, unlike other Linux reviewers, I have a higher standard of what I consider a passing grade. To me an operating system should at least come up and work. If it doesn’t work, it’s a failure. I’m not going to give Linux welfare the way other reviewers do. If it’s broken then I flunk it. Fedora 8 flunks.
A lot of people put Vista down because it sucks. I’m not using it myself but Vista does at least work. Can you imagine what people would say if you installed Vista and you didn’t have a mouse cursor? Or if they put out a “Live DVD” in CD format? Or you were stuck in 800×600 mode with a 1280×1024 monitor? Do you think Vista would get the kind of positive reviews that Linux gets? I don’t think so.
I think it’s wrong to lower the bar for Linux. When we pretend that Linux works when it doesn’t it creates a false sense of success. People ask why folks choose Windows or Macs over Linux when Linux is free. That answer is simple. Windows works, Linux doesn’t. If you give something away for free and people still pick the expensive OS over your free OS then maybe it’s time to get a clue.
#14: You missed the entire point. Linux is currently not going anywhere in the mainstream because of everything you said. The system has a snobbish fan base nearly as bad as apple fans, it requires days of configuration just to get right, and a user base that derides every little failure of Windows yet ignores the major failings of their own OS, and considers real problems ignorable. Mr. Perkel’s points are all valid.
With Windows, once you have it installed (with defaults, no less) and your drivers and security installed, it works. Within only a few hours no less. With only minor tweaking of settings for personal preference, not to get things working. And I can put two DX10 video cards in an XP machine, load the drivers, and it’ll work. (And that’s on nVidia’s side, not MS’s.) Show me a “flavor” that can do all that and run all of my software without glorified emulators and I might consider switching.
I just Moved from Fedora6 to 7. I do not like to get the install after they come out. It is better when man issues are worked out, and more help is found on line. I also think Windows is better than Linux, but I use Linux in an Old PC as server (samba and HTTP), and also to browse the web via VNC from my Windows PC. I tried it as print server, but the high quality pictures just do not work in Linux, no matter how many times I tried to get the HP settings wright But the old drivers worked fine in Vista. And do not let me start on the Modem and the web cam. If people complain about not enough driver support for Vista, Linux has less hardware compatibility. Only the tech litareat can put several hours of his time to fix those problems, buy not the average user.
If you use Fedora on systems that are meant to be “production” quality you are an idiot. Use RHEL, or CentOS. Fedora is a testing ground for new technologies. Don’t be surprised if something breaks.
Free software — especially Linux — is liable to really fall down with installation and configuration issues because this stuff is no fun for developers to work on. It’s the most unsexy and frustrating part of the job, so it’s no surprise that volunteer programmers don’t finish it.
Windows used to be almost as bad in this department, but Microsoft gradually improved things by paying smart people to work hard on the problem. And the fact that Windows still does fail here too often is a testament to how tough it is to smoothly support the universe of PC hardware. It’s almost an argument in favor of the Mac’s walled garden, but I believe in choice and low-cost.
Yes, the Linux fans seem to look the other way and make excuses for things not working. But, at the same time blame Microsoft and Vista for the same thing. Are we supposed to give part timers working with Linux more slack just because its free? Other then geeks who want to spend hours trying to play a movie in Totem while searching and installing codecs left and right and still not getting a movie to play!
How can any Linux fan even think the average user who knows how to turn on the computer and that’s it! Want to try Linux? For anyone considering Linux, just go to a Linux forum and read about all the troubles that user’s suffer through that are taken for granted in Windows and Mac OS10. I personally think Linux is improving at a snails pace and will never catch up to Windows or OS 10.
I remember seeing problems like this ten years ago, when I first looked at Linux. It’s extremely depressing to see things haven’t changed much.
M$ spends millions in development to make things work
Right, and this goes to the basic question: can an open source OS contend with all the configuration complexity of the PC platform? This may reveal some fundamental limitations of open source, and it’s not whining to point this out. And if there’s a tone to mperkel’s post, there’s good reason for it and we’ve all been there.
It should just work, mostly, because normal people have no time to screw with problems like this. I’m a nerd and even I don’t have patience any more for unfinished tools.
Yeah #38 – I expect it to just work.
It sounds like me that mPerkel should just shut up already and either find a new job that he can actually do, or just shift platforms and use something that he can actually get to work.
First it was the rant agains mySql, which turned out to be inexperience, poor testing, poor planning and poor configuration. Now it’s this rant against Linux because it does not work out-of-the-box in his specific configuration.
Any admin with an ounce of common sense knows that for a work environment, before you go out and buy a system you plan it, both for hardware and software. You buy hardware that is proven to work with the software that you want to run. If you are upgrading, you first have a reason to do so, and then you transition the system, you just don’t upgrade a working system without a way back out.
So mPerkel, your rants are becoming tiresome. Since the Linux / mySql environment is something that you both don’t understand and can’t get to work, I really recommend that you give up and just make sure that you do everything with commercial software in the future. If you can’t do that because of cost, and you are forced to stick to a non-Windows OS, I suggest that you at least show a little gratitude that you can do that at all, and start contributing and showing a little gratitude to those that have given you the opportunity to use free tools in the first place.
You get something for free, you don’t like how it works, and you whine.and throw dirt on it.
Is this mPerkel receiving his gift car?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81GUFJ_eo90
why are you running Fedora on a server anyway? Real Linux admins run RHEL in text mode.
I just want to point out that the ISO for Fedora 8 are not that big.
32bit Fedora 8 ISO is 697Megs and the 64 Bit version is only 766Megs, not 800Megs. It’s possible you got a bad download.
-Steve
#44, The distro is not broken, he just could not get it to work with his hardware ,this does not mean it is broken.
-Fratm
44 – Pedro –
Suppose I were to write an Operating System that only works reliably on one set of specific hardware. Some experimenters could get it to work on ‘unsupported’ hardware, but for it to work reliably, I would have to use one specific set of hardware.
I assume that you would call the OS broken, because it works well on some hardware configurations but not others.
I would call it the Intel version of Mac OSX.
If mPerkel wants a kick-ass, stable version of Fedora to run mission-critical apps, he better make sure the hardware that he chooses woks well with the software. Otherwise he just comes off the same as some other guy claiming that Mac OSX sucks because he has to patch it over and over to run on his Intel motherboard, and he still can’t the display right.
#45 – My hardware is common hardware. Nothing weird – nothing too new. So if it doesn’t work on my hardware it’s broken. The definition of broken means it doesn’t work.
#47, Maybe broken for you. But there are plenty of people who have not had problems with the distro.. So it is not broken. A bad install is just that.
I’ve had bad installed of Windows too, I’ve had windows come up in 640×480 until I got the correct drivers installed. I’ve also had Windows not detect my display and then proceed to over drive it frequency wise. So this can happen with any OS, but does it mean it is broken? No, it means it just did not detect what you had installed, and you may need to tweak it to work.
Anyways, good luck with it.
-Fratm
I haven’t used Fedora in ages, I switched to Ubuntu in 2005. Lately I’ve been testing the Mandriva Linux 2008 livecd though and I must say, I’ve never been more impressed by a livecd. UNbelievable.
I know it’s slightly OT, but ditch that Fedora and give the Mandriva a spin.
I agree that things should just work. If an OS (free or not) wants to get a large part of the marketshare on the desktop, it needs to be foolproof.
I agree with #42. Fedora should not be on a server. I used to do that, now I’m stuck with systems people are heavily dependent on that I can’t upgrade any more.
I now run CentOS. Upgrades are simple through Yum, mostly in-line and happen for three years. I’m waiting for the verdict on 5.1 before starting to deploy on the 5.x series, but until then 4.x keeps on ticking, and anyway I’ll have at least a year before 4.x isn’t supported any more so that’s lots of time to negotiate new^Wupgraded hardware from my customers.
#47 mPerkel “So if it doesn’t work on my hardware it’s broken.”
It’s that statement that I have a problem with. That attitude in general. So lets run-down the facts.
1. You didn’t do any research on hardware compatibility.
2. You installed Fedora expecting it to recognize everything.
3. When it didn’t “Just Work”, rather than figure out why it isn’t working, you post a rant asking why you should have to troubleshoot.
No one told you that it was going to work. Nowhere in the fedora documentation does it say “Certified to work on mPerkel’s setup.” You set your expectations, not the linux community. Do not complain to the community when YOUR expectations aren’t met.
And since when are you a “Reviewer”? Where can I read these reviews?
Broken for me too, Fedora 8 is the only distro I’ve tried recently that had an invisible cursor. Plus it just hung in vmware. Fedora 7 no problems, Ubuntu 7.x no problems.
#14 “…anyone who installs (as a rule) an OS with purely default options — rather than to read through each install menu to determine what he or she does and does not need / want, is an inexperienced user who does not know what half of the packages are anyway.”
But when you go to a software site, and are unable to find a description of what the software does, then it is most likely *nix software! If you want to convince me, you can’t have it both ways.
@ #2 I commented on this post shortly after it was put up. I would like to go on the record by stating that I do NOT agree with #1.
By the way, My favorite Linux Distro is PCLinuxOS. It is the closest replacement to windows that I can find. Other than the proprietary ATI drivers, everything in PCLOS just works for me.
I am not a big fan of Ubuntu or its variants, they are over hyped if you ask me. Ubuntu does not work properly with my wireless card, video card, monitor, or sound card.
I screwed up my comment on #55, allow me to restate.
In response to #24, I do not agree with comment #1. I was agreeing with M Perkel. I have tried Fedora before and agree with everything that M Perkel said.
FWIW,
Since this a 2 year old card, is the BIOS updated to the latest version?
Also FWIW, a quick search with Google shows that lots of people have had problems with this Mobo supporting just about any flavor of Linux.
About the graphics thing: The main problem is that Fedora’s graphics tool isn’t ready for the new X.Org server and the new RandR.
From the command line its very easy to set the new resolution – and activate and deactivate new devices with hotplugging, etc., without any editing of the xorg.conf. But that’s the command line, and not the GUI.
So while I agree with you in case of your judgement of the graphics management for average users I do also recommend to you personally to look at the command line utility xrandr to set your stuff as you want it. 🙂
You are trying a 64bit stuff for desktop! What do you want?
Try using a Windows 64bits for desktop, it’s a hell too
#52 – actually I did get it to work eventually so the hardware is compatible. But the install failed to get it right and the system-config-display program really screwed up the xorg.conf file.
The point – for those of you too dim to get it – when people ask why Linux isn’t making headway on the desktop it’s because even experts have to screw around with it for 3 hours to get it to work. The average person can’t install it.
Yes – the bios is the latest version.
56# PCLinuxOS is my favourite distro as well. If I could only get the g#d D$%#d thing to even work on my lapatop properly with 800×600 I would be content. I get 800×600 but all the system windows stretch down below the screen. Surely PSLinuxOS should know to keep the window within the screen area. Give me a scroll bar please! I can’t move the windows, or shrink them down. How can I get to the OK/Cancel/Finish buttons etc if they’re not able to be seen?
Now I can search the forums for days, but I don’t have the time. For every solution someone has, there are twenty more different ones, and who has time to work out which of those is the answer? Invariably, NONE of them are. This is where I must admit windows is great. I can search and FIND a solution. But, I don’t want Windows. I want to move to linux. It’s where I want to be.
The problem with OS wars is everyone forgets one important thing: no operating system does everything well and each one has major problems. Take Windows. It’s expensive, is highly targeted by malware, and is so complex for the average person to use and maintain that Geeksquad and Firedog are the only thing keeping many people from throwing their PCs out the Window.
Mac OS X can’t natively run Windows programs. Is that a flaw? Maybe not, but it makes the operating system less useful to many people. Can you run Windows on Mac OS X? Sure, but then you’re running Windows…. So is Mac OS X broken?
All Linux distros have installation and configuration issues! Is that unique to Linux Distros? Absolutely not. I’ve heard of Windows updates bringing computers to a crawl and Mac OS X updates corrupting the operating system. One important “installation issue” with Windows it its need for powerful anti-virus and anti-malware products. When was the last time you heard a Linux user complain that he/she had to take his computer to the geek squad because it was “really slow” and did “lots of weird things” such as randomly rebooting?
The fact of the matter is I run Mac OS X, Linux 2.4/2.6 based desktops/servers, Windows based desktops/servers and I find that each configuration has its strong and weak points. Each one is “Broken.” So I find your blog post fairly useless. Problems must be fixed when using any operating system and programs. That is why bloggers post how they overcame their problems and then enjoyed the operating system. There is a reason why IT workers have jobs running and deploying Windows/Linux/Mac/Solaris/etc desktops/servers – they just don’t magically work.