Fedora 8 came out today and quite frankly, it sucks. I’m a Fedora user and I run Fedora on about 10 servers right now, including this one that hosts Dvorak Uncensored. But even though I’m a fan I think that it’s time to end the intellectual welfare that all the Linux reviewers give it and raise the bar to the same standards that commercial software is judged by. What is that standard you ask? It’s the standard of “does it work”. My conclusion – no – it doesn’t. Fedora 8 is broken.
I downloaded the 64 bit released version. My hardware is as follows:
1. Motherboard A8N-VM CSM
2. CPU: AMD 4400+ dual core processor
3. 4 gigs of ram
4. Maxtor 300gb SATA II drive
5. Monitor Samsung Syncmaster 912n 1280×1024
I did a generic install using all the defaults. The only thing I did unique was the root password. The install appeared to go fine. Did a reboot and it took 10 minutes to come up. It got stuck on loading Sendmail until something timed out. Eventually it came to in 800×600 resolution by default in spite of the fact that my screen is 1280×1024. The first thing I noticed was that the cursor was missing. Technically it was there – but you couldn’t see it. This by itself makes it fail the “just works” test.
Being an expert, I already know to try to disable the fancy GUI boot-up to get the cursor back but the average person doesn’t know that, nor should they. So after switching to text mode and editing the /boot/grub/grub.conf file and rebooting, I managed to get the system up with a cursor.
But since I had a 1280×1024 screen, I wanted to see it in the resolution that the screen supports. So I ran the display configuration and set the Monitor to Samsung 712n which was on their list. Now if this were a Windows computer, I wouldn’t have had to do that because Windows just knows what monitor you hook up.
After selecting the correct monitor, I returned to select the resolution and even though I had selected a 1280×1024 monitor I still couldn’t select anything bigger than 800×600. So I tried a reboot thinking maybe after it boots up with the new monitor setting, then it would give me the choices for the resolution. But after the reboot, it came up in some strange mode that was something like 1370×768, which is beyond the dimensions of the selected monitor.
I could have started trying to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file but decided f*ck it. Why should I spend several more hours on Fedora 8 just trying to get it to work with a standard size screen? I have better things to do. Yes, if I wanted to, I could eventually get it to work but why should I?
So then I downloaded the “Live DVD” for the 64 bit version, the i386 version is called “Live CD” which is what they used to call it in Fedora 7 until I pointed out that the size of the image file they put out was too big to fit on a CD. I filed a bug report and the response was “Won’t Fix”. So I download the Fedora 8 version called “Live DVD” but when I went to burn it, the burner software said that the image can’t be burned onto a DVD because it was in CD format.
So – the bottom line is that when tested on a standard system using hardware that is about 2 years old, it just plain doesn’t work. On first boot there was no cursor. Once I fixed that, it failed to adjust to the resolution of my monitor. And the “Live DVD” image is formatted for a CD but to big to fit on a CD. I’m not going to report this as a bug because if I get another “won’t fix,” it’s really going to piss me off.
The bottom line is – it doesn’t work. Fedora 8 is as bad as Fedora 7. It’s broken and it sucks.
Like I said, unlike other Linux reviewers, I have a higher standard of what I consider a passing grade. To me an operating system should at least come up and work. If it doesn’t work, it’s a failure. I’m not going to give Linux welfare the way other reviewers do. If it’s broken then I flunk it. Fedora 8 flunks.
A lot of people put Vista down because it sucks. I’m not using it myself but Vista does at least work. Can you imagine what people would say if you installed Vista and you didn’t have a mouse cursor? Or if they put out a “Live DVD” in CD format? Or you were stuck in 800×600 mode with a 1280×1024 monitor? Do you think Vista would get the kind of positive reviews that Linux gets? I don’t think so.
I think it’s wrong to lower the bar for Linux. When we pretend that Linux works when it doesn’t it creates a false sense of success. People ask why folks choose Windows or Macs over Linux when Linux is free. That answer is simple. Windows works, Linux doesn’t. If you give something away for free and people still pick the expensive OS over your free OS then maybe it’s time to get a clue.
It’s interesting that you only note only your monitor hardware, which likely has no bearing on graphics issues you experienced. What WOULD have is your graphics card, the brand and specs of which you failed to mention.
I bet your card is Nvidia or ATI; am I correct? You do understand why these graphics card manufacters’ products may cause issues with *FREE* and open source software, right? (Although ATI, kudos to them, has opened up their specs so you can bet there will be much better out-of-the-box support for ATI cards in the months ahead across all Linux distributions!)
You do know WHY Windows ‘just works’ for most (not all) video cards, right? Because their developers actually have access to the specs while the folks who prefer to develop free software have no such access?
btw, Fedora does not offer a Live DVD, so why do you coyly insinuate that we do? Fedora offers Live CDs and correctly labels them as such.
In summary, your review is really unfair. And I don’t really believe your self proclaimed “expert” status if you don’t realize that your video card specs would be a lot more useful than your monitor specs.
It’s not Fedora that sucks. However, it’s quite likely your hardware that sucks.
Amen to that.
Well #1 if you’re so damn smart you would already know that the video is built into the motherboard and there is no video card. It is nVidia. But I’m not listening to excuses. It either works or it doesn’t. In this case it doesn’t.
Just because it’s free doesn’t mean I’m going to lower the bar. Blame my hardware. That’s pretty lame. Asus works fine with Windows.
As to the DVD – http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora – read it.
Oh, thank goodness — I thought it was just me!
I could never get the 64-bit version of Fedora Core 4 to even boot on my AMD-64 machine — the install went fine but it could never get all the way through the first boot, so instead of a dual-boot machine, it’s now my Windows box. I use FC4 on my $10 surplus Dell GX-110 Linux box, but it’s flaky sometimes — the Audio Player program just quit working one day and hasn’t worked since. Luckily there are 3 or 4 alternatives that still work fine.
This is not to say that Windows is without fault. The main reason I even have a Linux box is for downloading. My Windows installation keeps dropping browser downloads (Firefox, IE or Opera) that take more than about 3 to 5 minutes, so I get those on the Linux box and transfer them over the LAN. My Compact Flash card reader quit working on the Win box too, so my photos now go through the same route, or get transferred to a thumb drive on my wife’s PC, which uses up 4 drive designations (E: through H:) for the built-in memory card readers.
Makes me want to get my old Amiga 3000 working again….
}} Just because it’s free doesn’t mean I’m going to lower the bar. Blame my hardware. That’s pretty lame. Asus works fine with Windows.
Yes, but on windows you need to install a nvidia driver for that card to be accelerated.
Why not try Ubuntu on that box.
It has been my opinion that Fedora has pretty much always had problems. I would never use it on a server.
#1Mairin }} Fedora does not offer a Live DVD, so why do you coyly insinuate that we do? Fedora offers Live CDs and correctly labels them as such.
Can you tell me where I can buy blank CDs that will hold an image that is 806M or 768M? So far as I know nobody sells disks above 700mb.
I’m wondering why did you upgrade? Was something broken? Or was it just that Fedora 8 came out? I bought the Core 4 version and ran it on a IBM Thinkpad… I kind of liked it.
I believe the first two commenters missed the point. So what if video drivers aren’t directly available? Aren’t there ways to get around it? From what I’ve seen, there are Linux fixes for most any hardware, so with two year old video cards I would think a fix would be automatically configured or able to be chosen during the install.
I’d be happy as hell to use Linux, I’ve installed Fedora in a dual boot configuration, but I just don’t have the time to learn all the specialized techniques to spend hours customizing settings and apps for tasks that can be done in Windows with a click of the mouse. I’ll probably learn, eventually, but the average person who just wants to actually USE the PC won’t be doing what it takes to use Linux, and that spells doom for making the operating system any more than an underground movement.
And the point, again, is that the operating system doesn’t
The Fedora 8 64 bit Live CD/DVD is 844 megs. Stick that on a CD.
Amen mperkel! My friend is a linux lover, we regularly have debates over which OS is superior (Vista vs. Linux). The other day, his Windows install (he’s gone three years without reinstalling and the machine is loaded with spyware) stopped recognizing his CD drives. He sent me an angry email dissing Microsoft and calling XP “another proven product from microsoft (sarcasm)”.
I felt like punching him in the face (I didn’t). Linux gives him tons of problems (he uses PCLOS) and he always talks about how good it feels to fix problems in Linux, yet when his XP install gives him ONE PROBLEM after three years he starts talking shit about microsoft. I personally run Vista on my machine, I’ve tried many many Linux distros and none of them have been able to fully support dual monitors on my graphics card, an ATI Radeon 9600. Don’t give me the “ATI won’t open up their specs” bullshit, if the card works under Vista and Linux is supposed to be superior to Vista, then the card should work flawlessly in Linux. I always either get graphics acceleration or dual monitors, I’ve never gotten both to work. Making the slightest change to my graphics configuration always screws up X, and I always have to go reconfigure it. Screw Linux, for now at least.
Well, well. I too have had the same problem recently with Linux. I shouldn’t have to. Admittedly I have an unusual screen resolution, but it is a generic manufacturer and the graphics chip, although recent, is as I understand, one where the Linux community has access to all the info need to get it going (Intel 945 graphics chip). I’ve tried PCLinuxOS, Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Puppy, Suse and simplyMepis. I always end up with either 800×600 or 1024×768. I’d rather have the 800×600, but even then none of the windows opened fit within the screen. They all stretch past the bottom of the screen. If the distro chooses 1024×768, I can’t see the taskbar (panel?), and I STILL get the stretched windows. Funny thing is, many of these distros know the perfect resolution when running the install, but lose it when the install finishes. I shouldn’t have to spend HOURS trawling through forum after forum to fix a simple (seems to me) issue. And when you DO find a solution, there are twenty others that offer different advice. None of them seem to work. I REALLY want to use Linux and I persevere and persevere, but I’m getting to the point of just giving up for another couple of years, like I did last time. Linux just isn’t up to scratch. Sort the Wifi and WPA out to. It’s too much hassle for a beginner.
It’s Plug & Pray issues all over again.
IF you build a system around published specs that say so & so hardware specifically, then, no problems. Ironically this would be older hardware, not “recent” 18 month old hardware mperkel used.
Probably the best Linux for Plug & Pray hardware is Ubuntu, just because of the commercial backing of Google & IBM, donating tons of hardware for the testers.
Personally, mperkel, do what I did. Win server 2k3 R2, then install Apache/MySql/Php.
My WAMPs run way better than the LAMPs. You should see the performance on the HP DL580 w/four dual-core Xeon’s & maxed RAM.
The only time I ever reboot is because MS Critical Updates, quite rare with 2k3 R2 with 100% of optional software installed.
I don’t VMWare, as I run just one HTTPS.
The biggest thing, is that by running A+M+P, Microsoft never breaks anything. Not so with Linux.
If Linux on a server is a must, then, ALWAYS use VMWare, because Linux is 100% stable on VMWare.
Then you can #shutdown -g0 -y the virtual, copy the multi-gig file somewhere, start it up again, then update and test.
Easy rollback.
Under WAMP, I just do a NET STOP MYSQL, XCOPY d:\mysql e:\msql /e /s, NET START MYSQL.
Usually this takes 2 minutes TOPS for 1.5 gigs.
Then on the E:\Mysql I run another batch to Zip with %Y%m%d.zip, that takes much longer, but who cares, it’s already backed up.
It’s so fast I could do hourly backups, but then some web users might get timeouts if the time to STOP, COPY, START the service is longer than 60 seconds.
I know a SysOp that boots 2k3R2, then auto-starts Linux VMWare servers, because the drivers, admin tools, backups, are better/easier if the main server is Windows.
However it costs more $$$, but you save it with time down the road. The minimum users enterprise lic per server is less than 1k$.
Let the home users with time to waste use Ubuntu / Fedora Core 8.
True Linux SysOp’s use Slackware, Gnome through SSH. GUI never enabled on the console. Ctrl+F1 .. F8 sitting with #’s 🙂
(I still know by heart how to have unlimited Clipboards in VI non-GUI)
Speaking from personal experience I have never had too many problems with Debian based Linux distros (less than Windows XP) but always had more problems with r.p.m based distros. To say all Linux sucks because one brand new distro has some problems is a bit silly. I’m sure Vista had all sorts of issues in the first week. Even OS X Leopard which is designed to run on very limited hardware was blue screening some people until they fixed it.
Why not use FreeBSD?
Fedora [Core] is an excellent operating system, in both 32 and 64 bit flavors.
I have had nothing but success with hardware ‘integration’, going as technologically far back as Socket A AMD Morgan Durons / Thoroughbred and Barton Athlons / and Thoroughbred Semprons — and as recent as an Athlon X2 6000+ (and yes, both cores are firing with multiple threads per). Boards range from inexpensive Foxconn, Biostar, and PCChips, to gaming / server boards like Soyo’s Dragon and the latest new toy from Gigabyte. Video solutions from onboard Via and SiS through AGP nVidia FX5500’s and a PCI nVidia 5200.
I’ve found, as an expert in the field of ‘people’, that the user is the root cause of failure, roughly 85% of the time. 10% , the software / hardware is simply too difficult for a ‘reasonably’ informed user to deal with, and 5% is legitimate hardware / software failures.
Linux, in any form, is not a ‘plug-and-play’ operating system. This is not an insult, but anyone who installs (as a rule) an OS with purely default options — rather than to read through each install menu to determine what he or she does and does not need / want, is an inexperienced user who does not know what half of the packages are anyway.
I have run Fedora Core 5 as a server for over a year, with zero unscheduled downtime. I now have migrated to Fedora Core 6, and the machine has evolved to a full network backbone and internet host. My desktops and workstations run Fedora 7, although my laptop and home-theatre-pc (DVR) still run Fedora Core 5 (the laptop has so many proprietary pieces of hardware, and takes a significant time to install any distro of linux, so I figure leave it until I ‘need’ to upgrade… and the home theatre pc / dvr is more or less the same deal – a lot of complex trinkets, so i leave it be until I need to).
My suggestion… roam along LinuxQuestions.org until you have a better grasp of Linux.
All fine and well Vince, but you can only trwl through so many forums before your eyes go square. Something such as resolution settings should be relatively simple (even for Linux) to resolve. Even beginners aren’t as ignorant as you may believe. I go through as many of the install options as I can, rather than just the “default options”, however I should be assured that the default options will at least work well. Invariably, they don’t. Now, I am getting familiar with command lines and Xorg.conf etc, but Linux is not good enough for someone who just wants the damned thing to work straight up. As I said above, if Suse for instance can get the resolution correct when running the install, why can’t it remember those settings when the install is complete. Linux still has a long way to go.
Also, Vince, on many of these linux forums, such as Linuxquestions.org, newbies are often treated with disdain. How easy it is to forget that they too were once in that situation.
#15: “My suggestion… roam along LinuxQuestions.org until you have a better grasp of Linux.”
In other words — it is not nearly useful for the average consumer.
[Message deleted – See Comment Guidelines. – ed.]
Mperkel , then crawl back to bed with Bill G, just remember he f… you and then take you money. Not necessary in that order, not in that Business, anyway!
Have you tried burning your iso image with k3b Tools->”Burn DVD ISO Image” onto a DVD?
PIBKAC
mperkel I hear you and I feel your pain.
And I agree with your complaints
I have to say I appreciate the honesty if not the technique of the review.
I have been going through different ISO and LIVE version downloads of LINUX to run on my machine. I have been grabbing the ISO’s to boot them into a VM and run the system ‘through the paces” to make certain that this specific ISO is going to work with my needs and or systems.
I was just going to start looking at the FEDORA 8 system.
I used to solely use Fedora (Red Hat) ISO’s. Until I came across DEBIAN and the NON-RPM format it uses. Seems that is a much stronger system than the one Fedora or Red Hat uses with RPM files.
Yes, I have run into a LOT of install issues, and all depend on what flavour you are running as to what problems you can run into to. A LOT of my issues have been graphics related, simply because of the SLI/DUAL Monitors / Dual Card config I use on this machine.
This configuration, as well as my RAID setup, just seems to confuse the heck out of all the different versions
Try the UBUNTU flavours (I LIKED XUBUNTU…..but I can use UbuntuStudio) as well as the smaller flavours like Damn Small and Yellowdog.
They are not perfect by any means, but they at least provide for the setup in some fashion. Much more than I have seen with the FEDORA system.
Fedora always sucked! Switch to debian! Say no to rpm.
hi, i’m a mac.
I’ve had a similar monitor experience with the latest Ubuntu (7.10) both during the install and after booting into the installed system. I think it has to do with the new Xorg server. The new version was supposed to drop you to a “safe” resolution if something went wrong, rather than dropping to the command line. The safe resolutions are either 800×600 or 640×480. Unfortunately in Ubuntu, the admin gui windows are designed for 1024×768 and you can’t resize the windows. This means you can’t click the “ok” or “cancel buttons” since they are off screen at the lower resolutions. Makes it challenging to fix the problem unless you know how to use the command line.
I’m guessing the distributions should have done some more testing before they included the new Xorg server.
#14 Vince, c’mon, your post isn’t helpful.
OF COURSE it will run fine on OLD hardware !!!
Yes, Fedora, even Ubuntu, is Plug & Play, just look at the full boot screen.
It will test for different mobo/peripherals to determine, say, which video card driver to use, or which network card.
If at install time you bind your hardware to the Linux configs & kernel, good luck ever trying to upgrade that computer, you must leave it as-is. Or have lots of fun + forums reconfiguring files in /etc
I know lots of people having to buy a RealTec NIC because the Mobo NIC could not work with Linux. Same with onboard video, having to buy a PCI graphics card, at premium, because they are discontinued.
So, #14, if you use specific hardware that was tested beforehand by the community yes, it will run perfectly.
But it does a lousy job with newer hardware, because time-to-release takes too long in the OpenSource world, and of course the hardware vendors aren’t being helpful for less than 1% of the market with drivers and help.
Using any GUI on a server on the console is not a good idea, if MIPS are dear to you. Slackware with no GUI is the norm. There’s even ISO’s that are full LAMP ready in fully tested configs.
Or use Red Hat LAMP’s and PAY for their testing & QA.
I just use OpenSource where it’s intelligent to use it – outside the scope of the OS, so my software & configs are 100% OS Independent.
Easy to manage, lots of tools.
OpenSource with Dot Net is becoming strong, with mostly Microsoft donating millions of lines of debugged code, called Name Spaces.
Try sometime PAINT DOT NET as a easy-photoshop like tool, I like it way better than GIMP.
I don’t know why the first reviewer says there is no Live DVD. It is listed right on Fedora’s Download page. Did this guy ever see the Fedora page ?
http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora
#14 Vince, correction, your post IS helpful / useful suggestions. Reread it twice. Basically must stick with tested hardware / brands.
You don’t mention ASUS.
mperkel could simply change his Mobo based on your suggestions.
I still feel a WAMP would be better than a LAMP in mperkel’s particular scenario though.
However changing hardware completely would be cheaper, yet Microsoft has a “light” edition of 2003 server which is real cheap.
This entire thread belies the problem with Linux and its derivatives. Rampant cool-aid drinking and a holier than thou attitude that turns off any non-cult member in a second. Trying to prop up Linux by saying, “well it’s better than windows” does little to inspire confidence, not to mention that we are talking about Fedora’s shortcomings. But I waste valuable air.