I wonder if the economy should crash (our money is now worth the same as Canadian money for cripes sake — Canadian!!!) will God rescue the dollar as a courtesy for putting His name on it? I mean shouldn’t we get something out of offending the atheists and non-theists and those who believe in multiple gods and those religious people who feel it’s sacrilege to put His name on our grubby, root-of-all-evil money? Perhaps Pat Condell is right that Jesus and God are myths and it doesn’t matter. Anyway, Happy Birthday, four words!
Fifty Years of “In God We Trust”
It’s been 50 years since “In God We Trust” first appeared on U.S. paper currency, and those four little words have proven to be the source of big debate in the courts.
Michael Newdow, the California atheist known for trying to strip “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, has asked the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to declare “In God We Trust” an unconstitutional mingling of church and state. In Indiana, the American Civil Liberties Union has gone to district court, arguing that it’s unfair for the state not to charge administrative fees for “In God We Trust” license plates when a plate advocating for the environment carries extra fees.
Why, decades after the words were made the nation’s official motto and printed on our dollar bills, do they still inspire ire?
“A great many Americans are angry … when the government promotes religion and a great many other Americans believe that this is not promoting religion — they’re just representing who we are as a nation,” said Charles Haynes, senior scholar at the Freedom Forum’s First Amendment Center.
Thanks Hop!
>>And I’ll give it a rest with society is safe from the right wing’s
>>attempt to replace science with Sunday school in our schools…
I’m on your side with that one, Compay. Just leave me the fuck out of it. Please. I’m a big fan of Chuckie D and his Theory, stem cell research, reproductive freedom, and the whole shebang. Just leave me and my Jesus-loving self out of your discussions about snake-handlers, speakers-in-tongues, and snipers who kill abortion doctors.
>>I live in Indiana… The Jesus State… and I seem to get along
>>just fine with all but the preachy thumper bastards.
I used to live there too. And I used to play cribbage with a Pentecostal thumper that lived next door.. He was OK, as long as we kept the conversation to who was getting skunked next, and the drunkard down the street who never mowed his lawn.
>>If that’s what you need to believe… But I would say you are full
>>of crap and that context is your friend.
Tsk. Tsk tsk tsk. You know nothing about me OR my crap level, yet you are so quick to judge. I know you don’t like that Biblical shit, but I’m going to lay a little on you anyway: Judge not, lest you yourself be judged.
That’s the problem with the Fundies, and it’s the problem with the Atheist Evangelists too.
Can we make some sort of agreement on any further religious discussions to limit saying things that have not yet been said before? Or would that be booring?
10 print “God Sucks”
20 print “No, atheism sucks”
30 print $random_sarcastic_comment
40 goto 10
or maybe if we’d do it in php:
include_once(“/inc/sameoldargumentsdifferentday.inc.php”);
And this my friends is why coffee, religion, atheists, agnostics,God, government and printed money/coinage do not mix. Thomas Jefferson was a genius.
>>Thomas Jefferson was a genius.
That he was.
#63 – Ben,
Not a bad summation of many of these conversations. Randomize the order of 10 and 20. Change the message from “God sucks.” to “God does not exist. If he did, he’d suck.” That should reproduce our behavior pretty well.
#62 – Judge not, lest you yourself be judged.
Judgment is the sole province of the Lord.
But I’m an atheist, and I think someone has to do it.
But I’m not judging out of school. You said I did X. I don’t do X. I said you are are full of crap. I trust you to understand that I meant “on this issue”, and you are, “on that issue.”
Mr. Fusion and OFTLO – Why didn’t you guys mention your new license plate: http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=5266841 ?
I sure saw a lot of them the last few days.
Mister Mustard,
Eureka!! I figured it out. I have a term for the particular personality trait you display when speaking of atheism as a religion. Please, hear me out. It’s not that bad.
First, I would state that I am, as I have stated many times, an antitheist. This does mean that I see huge negative effects of theism and do actively oppose it. My definition of evangelism does NOT include selling any non-religious view. However, I suspect, and correct me if I’m wrong, that yours does. Hence, you see me as if I am evangelizing atheism, which I deny, but can understand your point of view.
Second, while you espouse a view that is against any form of evangelism, you espouse the view so strongly that, by the same definition that would allow for evangelism to include aggressive attempted persuasion of any viewpoint, you evangelize against evangelism.
Therefore, if you accept a definition of evangelism that includes non-religious ideas, it would make you an evangelical anti-evangelist!!
What do you think? Is that a fair description?
Personally, I don’t like the term evangelical atheist because I don’t believe evangelical can or should be used this way. So, I would really just prefer to call myself and antitheist and call you an antievangelist, without attaching the qualifier evangelical in front of either of them.
What’s your opinion?
#68 – Actually, the plate itself would not bother me if it were privately sponsored and cost more than the generic state plate. But Indiana is a particularly fertile ground for fucked up Jebus freaks.
The obvious issues aside, DMVs have run out of standard plates and substituted the God Freak plate automatically. This is a serious issue (but not for me, as my car is registered in Ohio, as is my residence and driver’s license (I refuse to submit to Indiana’s stupid registration policies)).
#69 – I like the word evangelist. I consider myself an evangelist for many things… AMD, nVidia, true Chicago pizza, independent music, privacy rights, and much more…
I am not an evangelist for atheism because logic and reason sells itself. 😉
#70. what Chicago pizza do you evangelize for?
And setting aside “in god we trust,” should we be truly offended by all the Masonic symbols on our currency? that pyramid with the eye is just spooky.
#19: “This was supposed to be a critical TECH blog.”
Never has been, never will be. John has other outlets for that.
What would we have to talk about if it wasn’t for the ACLU AND THE PINKO COMMIE LIBERALS. Those that feel threatened and angered by in God we trust on money must not have much of a life and may even be insecure about their beliefs and theirselves. Now if it said in Clinton we trust, or John Boy and Billy we trust (Which would be much better than Clinton by the way) now thats something to worry about.
In God we Trust has been on our coins since 1864. Now you want to get out of sorts for something we have been doing for 143 years. Leave it alone.
>>ACLU AND THE PINKO COMMIE LIBERALS.
Hoo boy. Better wipe that spittle off your lips, hon. You’re looking a little rabid…
>>evangelical anti-evangelist.
Well, close enough for government work, I guess. Although I don’t consider myself a true evangelical anti-evangelist; I leave people alone as long as they leave me alone (unlike true evangelists). It’s only when they try and ram their “Jebus-loving whack job” nonsense down my throat that I protest. So I guess “antievangelist” would do the trick.
#73 Pam, the first letter on record to the Secretary of the Treasury requesting recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins was from Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania. He appeared to be afraid that future scholars would rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation. He hoped that a reference to God on our money “would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed.”
It sounds pretty superstitious to me. I think I would have gone with something a little more universal…
“We Knocketh On Wood.” 😉
Slightly directed at #73 and mostly trying to stay on topic. It doesn’t bother me to see religious phrases on the money. In fact if religious people need such a prop to keep their faith then more power to them.
Pam said “those that feel threatened and angered by in God we trust on money must not have much of a life and may even be insecure about their beliefs and theirselves” (spelling mistake included) How is having god printed on money a threat to an atheist? Could christians be christians if they didn’t have all of their props (churches, books, phrases, crosses)?
The religious phrase on the money is just words. To someone who does not believe, the phrase is meaningless. In fact the money that the phrase is on is probably quit worthless in value. A meaningless phrase on worthless money, do you value your faith that much?
If you truly believe, you need no props and you do not need to convert others.
#73 – Pam,
ACLU AND THE PINKO COMMIE LIBERALS.
I wasn’t aware that we had a communist constitution. Would you please show me what in our constitution you consider to be pinko commie liberal?
You see, all ACLU does, and their sole charter as an organization, is defend the constitution. The point was even made quite well in a popular movie The American President.
Actually Pam, the fact that you oppose an organization that defends our constitution and by inference, our constitution itself, I would call you a totalitarian. I don’t know whether your preferred government form is monarchy, fascism, dictatorship, or communist. But, you don’t seem to like our democracy much.
#75 – MM,
Look a little more closely at your posts over the past N months or so. You are pretty evangelical. You often bring up the topic of atheists as a religion long before anyone else. You often talk about both atheists and religious folk ramming their beliefs down your throat, even when it is not on topic (though it is here). I think you are about as evangelical about your anti-evangelism as I am about antitheism. Though, again, from reading dictionary definitions of evangelism, I really don’t think it applies here. Last I checked, only 1 in 13 did not mention religion, and many specified protestant. Site’s not coming up now. I can check that later or anyone interested can check it themselves.
>>You often bring up the topic of atheists as a religion long
>>before anyone else.
Only in the context of ad hominem Christian bashing, Scottie. I don’t just start out of the blue; it’s either on-topic (as the case is here) – or in some discussion about quad-core chips or the Iraq war, when a participant non-sequiturs in with some slam against the “Xian whack jobs” and “Jebus-loving lunatics” for no apparent reason other than to libel Christians.
As to the definition of evangelical, sure “most” of the definitions will refer to religion, esp. Protastantism; a number of Protestant churches actually have “Evangelical” as part of their NAME. That doesn’t mean that’s the only accepted definition though; the meaning I was trying to impart was “marked by militant or crusading zeal : EVANGELISTIC “.
And you gotta admit that a lot of your Atheist bretheren are marked by militant or crusading zeal, if nothing else. I feel less pressure to BELIEVE, BROTHER!!! in an Evangelical Covenant Church than I do in a conversation with some of those zealots!
#79 – MM,
I feel less pressure to BELIEVE, BROTHER!!! in an Evangelical Covenant Church than I do in a conversation with some of those zealots!
That’s probably just because of your own personal bias. I feel it the other way. I’d guess the fervor is equal. I also don’t mind personally being called zealous or most other inoffensive terms for my own personal feelings on the subject. I just don’t tend to like religious terms for non-religious beliefs. So, crusading (offensive due not only to religious meaning but also due to the violence in the reference) and evangelical (there are no angels in atheism) tend to bother me. Militant bothers me as well since I am non-violent.
I’d also say, though I don’t believe I’ve used the term Xian whack job, that such terms obviously deride the lunatic fringe of the likes of Haggard and followers and are no reflection on the majority of Christians.
>>I’d also say, though I don’t believe I’ve used the term Xian
>>whack job, that such terms obviously deride the lunatic fringe
>>of the likes of Haggard and followers and are no reflection
>>on the majority of Christians.
And I would say that my comparison of evangelical, militant, Atheist zealots to Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, and others who seek to “bring the word” to non-believers derides the lunatic fringe of Atheism; those who characterize anyone with spiritual beliefs as a “whack job”, a “lunatic” or a delusional fool.
>>and evangelical (there are no angels in atheism)
The roots of the term evangelical are only distantly related to “angels”. In the original Greek, it meant a reward for good news given to the messenger. Current usage applies “evangelist” to all sorts of irrationally exuberant types, from Jack LaLanne, to Ron Popiel, to the late Tammy Faye Bakker. No angels required.
>>That’s probably just because of your own personal bias.
No, it’s because of the anti-spiritual bias of some communities, including DU. Try posting something under a different name in a relevant thread here that says “I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior”. Then count the seconds before the Atheist Storm Troopers are all over you like stink on shit, belittling, berating, and ridiculing you. I hope you have a watch that will measure fractions of a second.
#78, Scott,
I think you are about as evangelical about your anti-evangelism as I am about antitheism.
I’m going to defend Mustard somewhat on this one. Too often he has been the sole torchbearer for the “religious” side. So yes, he takes much more personal attack than do others. I don’t think his religious posts are all that extreme with the possible exception of insisting atheism is a religion.
I don’t agree with his POV, but I don’t feel threatened or offended by it either.
And I’m hoping he’ll maybe give me $5 for writing this.
>>And I’m hoping he’ll maybe give me $5 for writing this.
The check is in the mail, Nuclear One.
#71 – #70. what Chicago pizza do you evangelize for?
I evangelize for Chicago Style pizza made in Chicago by Chicagoans… It’s more a cultural thing than a brand thing… 🙂
#73 – Those that feel threatened and angered by in God we trust on money must not have much of a life and may even be insecure about their beliefs and theirselves.
The offending slogan wasn’t always on the money… so how threatened and angered were the people who fought to put it there?
Your cut rate armchair psychoanalysis of those who have a different belief than you is just a bullshit attempt to discredit opposition without having a valid argument.
#79 – And you gotta admit that a lot of your Atheist bretheren are marked by militant or crusading zeal, if nothing else.
Not really… I never talk about God except for here where it is on topic, or when shouting down some Xian fucktard who I catch trying to break the Darwin Fish off my car…
And I might be wrong, I don’t know, but I don’t think Darwin actually was an atheist…
This is something that should have been removed when the Cold War ended. It was placed on our money and inserted into the Pledge to help combat the Communist threat. Since that is not going to happen, we should recognize every religious entity – where’s the equal time for different religious groups? Give every group their own coin or bill and even have one with nothing. We could probably stretch the Pledge out to 20 or 25 minutes with the additional wording. No, I’m not kidding – it should be all or nothing. Can you see phrase ‘Allah is Great’ hidden on the new $5 bill?
>>or when shouting down some Xian fucktard who I catch trying to
>>break the Darwin Fish off my car…
That happen a lot to ya, OFTLO?
>>I evangelize for Chicago Style pizza made in Chicago by
>>Chicagoans… It’s more a cultural thing than a brand thing…
Heh heh heh. In other words, “I don’t know”. I lived in Chicago for quite a while, and there’s a lot of shitty pizza made in Chicago by Chicagoans. If you knew anything about it, you’d name a spot. You sound like one of those “Xian fucktards” you’re always railing on about.
>>The offending slogan wasn’t always on the money…
Hey, it’s the official motto of the United States of America, in case you didn’t know. If you don’t like it, write to your congressman.
#82 – Mr. Fusion,
I agree with you completely about his religious side. If you’ll re-read your own paste of my post, you’ll see that I was not speaking about his religious views. He is very definitely not trying to sell religion here. However, he is quite adamant in his anti-evangelism of both atheism and religion.
#84 – OFTLO,
I’m not sure about Darwin himself. His wife was deeply religious and he was always concerned about her opinion of his work. He worried that she would think he was destined for Hell. I’ve not heard much one way or the other about his own religious beliefs or lack thereof.
#84 – OFTLO,
According to wikipedia, which I still consider fairly reliable despite the whole wikiality thing, Darwin ended life as an agnostic.
http://tinyurl.com/2d4gcz
If your an athiest, catholic, baptist. It doesnt matter. The fact of the matter is this nation was founded by people who wanted religious freedom. That is why they started the reveloution. That is historical fact. Like it or not, the belief in God is part of this nations heritage. And if it offends you….. to bad. We have rewritten enough things already to please the whining liberals.
#81 – No, it’s because of the anti-spiritual bias of some communities, including DU.
I am not anti-spiritual… Personally, I am spiritual. I am also an atheist, and I am anti-dogmatic and anti-church (except for Bhuddist Temples or Unitarian churches 🙂 )
I don’t agree with you at all… There is NO anti-spiritual sentiment on this site that I can see, and if there is it is in the form of the aberrant post from the occasional sociopath.
Those who you seem to think are anti-spiritual are simply defenders of a culture under attack by fanatic theists, be they Christian, Muslim, or whatever.
What exactly do we trust god to do?
We trust him to stay completely out of our business and never show his face or leave any evidence of his existence, his identity, or his wish to communicate.
And so far, he’s never let us down 😉