I wonder if the economy should crash (our money is now worth the same as Canadian money for cripes sake — Canadian!!!) will God rescue the dollar as a courtesy for putting His name on it? I mean shouldn’t we get something out of offending the atheists and non-theists and those who believe in multiple gods and those religious people who feel it’s sacrilege to put His name on our grubby, root-of-all-evil money? Perhaps Pat Condell is right that Jesus and God are myths and it doesn’t matter. Anyway, Happy Birthday, four words!
Fifty Years of “In God We Trust”
It’s been 50 years since “In God We Trust” first appeared on U.S. paper currency, and those four little words have proven to be the source of big debate in the courts.
Michael Newdow, the California atheist known for trying to strip “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, has asked the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to declare “In God We Trust” an unconstitutional mingling of church and state. In Indiana, the American Civil Liberties Union has gone to district court, arguing that it’s unfair for the state not to charge administrative fees for “In God We Trust” license plates when a plate advocating for the environment carries extra fees.
Why, decades after the words were made the nation’s official motto and printed on our dollar bills, do they still inspire ire?
“A great many Americans are angry … when the government promotes religion and a great many other Americans believe that this is not promoting religion — they’re just representing who we are as a nation,” said Charles Haynes, senior scholar at the Freedom Forum’s First Amendment Center.
Thanks Hop!
… and #30, #31
And He said ‘let there be coffee” and there was and it was good. Heh
Thank MaCarthy for the god crap on everything. When as a young man I went off to Korea to fight those “godless” commie bastards, it was for god and the American way. Today we have a nut case running our government based upon the superstitious voting nature of greater than half of our population. I for one would like to see the god out of our lives. If it’s fine for you, OK, but stop shoving that mythological crap from old campfire stories down my throat as though it was fact. If the money today said “silver certificate,” which was removed to add Joe’s god crap, it might be worth something again.
>>I still maintain that Atheism is NOT a religion. I also maintain
>>that I have proven this to you on at least two occasions.
Maintain away, Scottie. That don’t make it so. An unwillingness to explore alternatives is the darkest, most metastatic form of “religion”. And I’m ashamed of you for being a congregant at that Church, although I respect your right to believe what you will.
>>Actually, it’s amazing how liberating I find atheism. I am not a
>>slave to your non-existent deity. I am truly free.
Or so you think. Just as those who proclaim themselves to be the most intelligent are often the most dim-witted, those who proclaim temselves to be the most free are often the ones most tightly bound by the chains of their belief.
Hey, I believe, you believe. We just believe in different things. I don’t feel it necessary to call your religious belief system something perpetrated only by “whack jobs” and the mentally deficient. Why not return the favor? The only issue I’ve taken with you is your unwillingness to admit that the third most popular religion on the planet (1.1 billion; (Secular/Atheist/Irreligious/Agnostic/Nontheist) is in fact a religion.
Face it, dude. You’re a believer. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, as the Monkees would say.
It’s kind of amusing God was added to money because supposedly, “This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism.”
Nowadays, I doubt one person in ten understands what that phrase means but probably ten out of ten have a related opinion.
God Bless America!
Ok–MM==why does a subject have to be 100% black or white?
Why can’t some atheists hold it as a belief akin to religion and other atheists hold it as an absence of belief not akin to religion? These things are afterall purely defintional. Shame to have a single definitional understanding to obscure real differences.
But the reality is, you are too intelligent to maintain your position except in spite. That also can be defined in several non monolithic ways. The bad ways aren’t too pretty?
ZOMG You said God!! You’re oppressing me!!! Ow Ow, listen to me, I’m right and you’re not!! Get over yourselves. I don’t like Atheists shoving their nihlistic Nietzschian anti-religion in my face any more than I like fundamentalist Christians trying to “save” me. Both sides have a general tendency to look down on the masses as silly, inferior mentally, or just plain deluded. In the end Atheism seems all about me, and fundamentalist Christendom seems all about the church. Both are increasingly narrow-minded and exclusionary. I for one, am proud to be part of dirty masses that don’t have ALL the answers.
38–How is admitting you don’t know how/why the universe exists “having all the answers?”
>>Why can’t some atheists hold it as a belief akin to religion and
>>other atheists hold it as an absence of belief not akin to religion?
As long as Atheists persist in claiming that I’m like Ted Haggard and Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggart because I’m a Christian, I think it’s only proper that they be lumped in with true believers in the Church of Atheism like Mao and Pol Pot and Stalin.
For those who just want to live and let live, welcome to the club.
I don’t see much living and letting live here tough; in a perverse twist on Godwin’s Law, each posting here seems to be a race to see who can use “Christian” as a term of slander first. That is if the lead-in post doesn’t have some kind of anti-Christian hatemongering in it to begin with.
Tsk. Hate begets hate, Bobster. As a fellow who equated “knowing Christians” with “hating them”, I’m disappointed, but not surprised.
#38 Angus,
Join us over here on the “Agnostic” side, the water’s great! You don’t have to pick fights, and you get to sleep in Sundays.
I think that the Atheist “Missionaries” are just as annoying as their fundamentalist counterparts. Both of you, enjoy your religion (or lack thereof) and keep your beliefs off of me.
As for the issue at hand, I do believe the phrase should be removed from our money. Not necessarily because it implies or “Forces” an acknowledgment of god, but because it, IMO, implies a worship of money.
For what its worth (and its probably not worth much) as a Christian I’d object to having ‘in god we trust’ on my currency (as I am not American its not such a big issue). I mean, really, what does trust in God have to do with money? If you want your money to be proper, proper money, you really outa have a picture of the Queen (or perhaps some other aging German woman) on it….
#20. Morgan “The love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.” is slightly, but importantly different from “Money is the root of all evil”. If you take away money, evil will still exist. You’ll just have to barter for evil things instead of using currency….
#37 bobbo,
Interesting idea. So I’m what, … an Atheist, Church of Darwin while you might be an Atheist, Church of Dawkins, Reformed?
😉
>>I think that the Atheist “Missionaries” are just as annoying as
>>their fundamentalist counterparts. Both of you, enjoy your
>>religion (or lack thereof) and keep your beliefs off of me.
Ditto.
#35 – MM,
What you still completely and utterly fail to understand about me is that I am perfectly willing to give the god hypothesis credence just as soon as the first bit of evidence is presented. This is very different from the religious mindset that god exists based on absolutely nothing and with complete and total unwillingness to change in light of new data. Your own beliefs are rather fluid, making you more of a free thinker than most of the religious crowd. In fact, I’m not sure that your own beliefs can necessarily be considered a religion. They may not meet the standards for dogmatic belief. For example, if evidence of the Hindu deities were to present itself, you would likely be willing to change your belief system accordingly. This is not true of most of the religious crowd. It is, however, true of atheists. And, this willingness to change with new data is a key difference. Religion forbids such change. It’s right there in rule numbers 1 through 4.
What?!?! You mean there are references to deities on your
>>In fact, I’m not sure that your own beliefs can necessarily be
>>considered a religion.
Oh they can, Scottie. Trust me. I even go to church, and the Good Reverend Doctor who is the pastor there tells me so! Our difference, yours and mine, is that I’m not ashamed to admit it.
As to the Hindu god, sure if one came and spoke to me, I’d change my belief system. Only a moron would not. I’m always open to evidence-based information. If we were only to believe things that we could observe and verify FIRST HAND (rather than relying on the second-hand tales of prophets, scientists, doctors, engineers, and others who claim to know what they’re talking about), we probably wouldn’t believe anything at all.
In the meanwhile, for things that cannot be observed under a microscope or measured by an oscilloscope, I just have to go with my gut.
#47 – MM,
I’m still waiting for a GUT. But, I’ll settle for a TOE.
>>I’m still waiting for a GUT. But, I’ll settle for a TOE.
Don’t give up hope, Scottie. Salvation may be yours yet.
gee I wish I could still believe in Santa Claus, but I just can’t do it
Nice try Uncle Dave . When they put “In God We Trust” the Canadian Dollar was worth more!
Get the facts right… for once… please.
Don’t forget to click on the horoscope links people!
#8 – To force off “God” on all items promotes your religion, Atheism, thereby breaking the 1st Amendment.
If you think what you just said is true, then you are illiterate. Don’t make me bitch slap you.
#16 – I guess you’d have to say we “evolved” to be religous
I want to call that a “devolution” but I’m afraid you’ll take it as a personal offense and start stamping your feet and bitching about Stalin and Mao.
#19 – This was supposed to be a critical TECH blog.
Says who? Don’t let the digital door hit your e-ass on the way out.
#21 – “Zoroastrian derivatives”, as you mysteriously insist on calling it
The history and origins of mythology are pretty well documented. I’m not sure what is so mysterious about it.
#27 – God is a title not a ‘name’. So God’s name is not on our money.
You must be an atheist because most Christians don’t know that much about “God”.
#28 – other than to point out the self-evident fact that their immutable, incontrovertible belief that there is no God is itself a religion,
Self evident until you take a class in English and realize how stunningly wrong you are and have been proven to be over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Since you think on a higher level, why not learn on one too?
#35 – An unwillingness to explore alternatives is the darkest, most metastatic form of “religion”.
Its because we’ve explored that atheists are atheists. But I’m not close minded… I’m just waited for evidence… I’m just not holding my breath while I wait.
Just as those who proclaim themselves to be the most intelligent are often the most dim-witted, those who proclaim temselves to be the most free are often the ones most tightly bound by the chains of their belief.
So you’ve walked in his shoes? Or mine? Or anyone elses? You can project that on us, but that don’t make it true.
I doubt I’m more intelligent than all or even many Christians… But I am a damn sight smarter than this Bob Jones University grad I saw on the 700 Club a while back. The “Doctor” of theology (that’s like having a doctorate in Dungeons and Dragons) explained that the Earth used to be covered in magnetism, and magnetism made snake venom into a cure all medicine, but magnetism erodes in the presence of sin, and man’s sin pushed the magnetism to the polar cap and snake venom is now poison…
Yes… I’m smarter than that. I’m a God damn metric fuck-ton smarter than that.
I don’t feel it necessary to call your religious belief system something perpetrated only by “whack jobs” and the mentally deficient.
Not “only”, but good Christ Mustard… how much sin do you need to generate to deactivate a magnetic field? What does someone need to believe before we can agree that they are a whack job (or as i like to say, loonbat)?
#37 – Ok–MM==why does a subject have to be 100% black or white?
Because theist universes are binary? (I’m just guessing… I don’t “know”)
#38 – I don’t like Atheists shoving their nihlistic Nietzschian anti-religion
Atheists are not nihilists. Personally, I can’t stand nihilists. They are the most boring people ever. I’d rather spend a month at Jesus Camp than a week on a nihilist retreat.
You might do well to find out what a nihilist is before you start painting atheists with that brush.
#40 – As long as Atheists persist in claiming that I’m like Ted Haggard and Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggart because I’m a Christian, I think it’s only proper that they be lumped in with true believers in the Church of Atheism like Mao and Pol Pot and Stalin.
We don’t. You are just over sensitive and a crybaby.
#41 – Join us over here on the “Agnostic” side, the water’s great! You don’t have to pick fights, and you get to sleep in Sundays.
Agnostics! HA! Intellectual cowards. Theists in disguise! Get some courage for your conviction. Sit on that fence long enough and the post will slide right up your ass! **
** ( 🙂 I’m doing that tongue and cheek, so don’t get bent out of shape)
I think that the Atheist “Missionaries” are just as annoying as their fundamentalist counterparts. Both of you, enjoy your religion (or lack thereof) and keep your beliefs off of me.
When the Thumper Xians (Disclaimer: of which Mustard is decidedly NOT) stop shoving their narrowly defined “God” into law, we’ll stop fighting back. Until then, Xians waged this war, we are gonna fight it.
#47 – Our difference, yours and mine, is that I’m not ashamed to admit it.
I readily admit that I am not in a religion. What is the problem?
#52 – OFTLO,
Late to the party but always welcome. LMAO at some of those comments.
>>and have been proven to be over and over and over and over and
>>over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
>>over and over and over and over and over and over and
Protesting a little too much there, OFTLO? Har!
>>You are just over sensitive and a crybaby.
As are you, brother. May God have mercy on your soul.
>>I readily admit that I am not in a religion. What is the problem?
I think you know full well what “the problem” is, brother. You’re a believer, a TRUE believer, and you are ashamed to admit it. And somewhat of a pain in the ass, to boot. Why don’t you just give it a rest. If you don’t like Ted Haggard or Jimmy Swaggart, take it up with them. Not all white people are like Adolph Hitler, not all Atheists are like Mao and Pol Pot and Stalin, and not all Christians are the xenophobic hatemongers you consistently refer to, implying (your disclaimer notwithstanding) that most of us are.
#54 – MM,
You lose. Godwin’s Law. Gotta be more careful if you want to stay in the game.
>>You lose. Godwin’s Law.
That was hitting below the belt, Scottie. I didn’t use “Hitler” in an affirmative sense (X is like Hitler), as the spirit of the law suggests.
Uncle dave “(our money is now worth the same as Canadian money for cripes sake — Canadian!!!)”…
And just what is THAT supposed to mean? Eh?
Couldn’t we just put “in god we trust” on some money, and, “in dog we trust” on an equal amount of money?
Would that satisfy you people?
#53 – You guys keep weird hours man 🙂
#54 – and not all Christians are the xenophobic hatemongers you consistently refer to, implying (your disclaimer notwithstanding) that most of us are.
If that’s what you need to believe… But I would say you are full of crap and that context is your friend. I try to keep your delicate sensitivities in mind and refer to the Haggards and Robertsons of the world as Xian, often prefaced by Thumper or Fundy or something deservedly offensive… and I try to say Christian when I refer to the average person of faith who just wants to get along, work, raise a family, and govern their own destiny and not control others…
An example of these good Christians would be you, and every last person I work with and or interface with in some way on a typical day. I live in Indiana… The Jesus State… and I seem to get along just fine with all but the preachy thumper bastards.
And I’ll give it a rest with society is safe from the right wing’s attempt to replace science with Sunday school in our schools… When abortion clinics are safe from Xian terrorists… When gays can marry… When the First Amendment faces no opposition… When I am 110% certain that will not wake up in a theocracy tomorrow…
…and you shouldn’t expect any less of me.
#56 – You are right… That was a fair use of Hitler.
#58 – Frankly, if the treasury called me and asked, “OhForTheLoveOf, do you want us to remove the slogan ‘In God We Trust’ from money?” then I would say yes… But they aren’t and I have bigger things to worry about, like the subversion of education and the slow erosion of civil liberties… and anyone who can’t see it is either blind or a Fundy Xian hell bent on destroying the America I was born to and intend to protect.
So really… The only issue I have with money is why the wealthy place so many barriers between the poor and opportunity in America… Who cares what is printed on the many, too many Americans aren’t getting a chance to read it anyway.
“OhForTheLoveOf, do you want us to remove the slogan ‘In God We Trust’ from money?”
40–MM==You say “As long as Atheists persist in claiming that I’m like Ted Haggard and Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggart because I’m a Christian, I think it’s only proper that they be lumped in with true believers in the Church of Atheism like Mao and Pol Pot and Stalin.” But you then go ahead and lump all atheists into that pot.
Then you say “For those who just want to live and let live, welcome to the club.” which is NOT what you do.
43–Mr Fusion==well thats on the right track but I know Dawkins is a Darwinist, while Darwinians may be more diverse with respect to God? I’m just trying to meat Mustard half way by acknoledging that “some” people are over involved in atheism, making it an all consuming life style and try to convert other people, as opposed to those atheists who do indeed simply don’t believe and want to be left alone. Mustard will protest, but I think he only sees/assumes the former, thereby abusing the latter. BTW, I’ve never met an evangelical atheist, that was just an argumentative construct. Could be difficult to make the distrinction between an atheist “fighting” to be left alone, verses an evangelical – – – – -hummm, no, not that hard. Mustard really is just obstinate. Won’t admit the truth even if he does see it. He has the blog fever.
52–OFTLO, binary too simple. More psychological in that some of the thumpers motivated by a desire for “firm” positions unsullied by gradations of relevance. Nead fuzzy logic, not logic gates.