Phil & Mary
Of course, hard-core conservatives would rather the man die than get treatment for which he couldn’t pay since that would mean their health care or tax money would subsidize it. Exaggeration? I once heard on a conservative talk show some years ago two guys spouting exactly that. Be able to pay your own way or die. How much you want to also bet they were Christians?
Hospital seeks $42,000 — from a homeless man
Phil Hughes, a homeless man she had befriended[, …] showed up one day and offered to paint her house number on the curb for cash.
[Mary Olsen] gave him $5 and a lunch of turkey and mashed potatoes. During the next few years, she hired him for painting, yard work and other odd jobs.
Hughes has no family in the area, so when he developed a high fever and blood infection a year and a half ago and sought treatment at John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek, Olsen told him to give her name and address as an emergency contact.
“I didn’t want him to die and not know about it,” she said.
The $42,000 bill addressed to Hughes that later arrived at Olsen’s home covered the three or four days he spent in the hospital.
[A] collection agency began hounding her with phone calls looking for Hughes. The collectors especially liked to call early Saturday mornings.
She told them Hughes did not live there, was homeless and could not afford to pay. Her pleas made no difference: The calls continued daily for a couple of weeks.
“Phil is so obviously an indigent person that no one would expect he would have enough money for lunch,” she said, “let alone a hospital bill.”
I especially liked the hospital’s, “who me?” response.
#10
>>Collection Agencies save the average person
>>hundreds of dollars each year because of the
>>monies Collection Agencies Recover.
Exactly how do they save me money? Ya, I thought as much.
#22 Mustard I guess you believe in the concept of intellectual property. That being the ownership of concepts and ideas. How far are you willing to extend the ownership of an idea? Would you kill someone for using your idea? Imprison them?
If you want to retain intellectual property, don’t tell anyone your secret.
Chicken or the egg
Why are hospitals so expensive?
Because health insurance companies pay the bill.
Why do you need health insurance companies to pay the bill?
Because hospitals are too expensive.
Q/ How can the US government find billions of dollars per week for years for the Afghanistan and Iraq wars but does not have the money for public hospitals and a national health plan?
A/ Because there’s no money in that.
Oh…and you thought you lived in a democracy – try to change that one voters. đ
Cheers
>>Q/ How can the US government find billions of dollars per
>>week for years for the Afghanistan and Iraq wars
Don’t you listen to “president” Bush? If we provide health care to Americans, THE TERRORISTS WILL WIN!!
#38 MM I seem to be outside of the Bush rhetoric so I still have my common sense intact! đ
Cheers
There is an expression that you cannot get blood from a stone.
Perhaps all these banks that advertise charge cards , financing and loans for non documented residents can get financing for this poor fellow . Maybe he can get a car loan so that he can drive to the hospital parking lot to not pay his fees
Maybe this fellow should become the true success story as portrayed by the government lotteries
Beg for a dollar
Instead of spending the dollar or dollars on donuts etc spend it on a couple of lottery tickets
It is always portrayed that you have such a great chance of winning and becoming wealthy
With his new found wealth not only will he be able to pay the hospital bills but also be the new american success story
After all if this fellow made the big winnings so can everyone else
22,
BUT, we shouldnt have to pay for the 1000 failures of all the rest of the pills that TRIED to make, when 1 succeeded.. And most of those scientists dont MAKE alot of money. The ones on TOP are geting most of the profit.
When someone can Pay CASH for a NEW car, 2-3 times a year…I generally think they are making to much money.
>>How much you want to also bet they were Christians?
Do you really need to get in an anti-Christian digg on every post — even if it is pure speculation?
I, for one, am a Christian who supports single payer health care. I’m certainly not alone.
>>Perhaps all these banks that advertise charge cards ,
>>financing and loans for non documented residents
I guess I missed those ads too. Which companies are they, exactly, that are advertising charge cards, financing, and loans specifically for non-documented residents?
>>Mustard I guess you believe in the concept of intellectual property.
I don’t understand where you’re going with this one, pajarito de la noche. Not all intellectual property is so mysterious and unfathomable that you can protect it by just “not telling anyone your secret”.
$42K? He must have only been there for about 4 hours with 3 hours spent in the waiting room.
I’d ask the bill collector to stop by, I have a leather check wrapped around my fist.
We live in China and my wife and I have health insurance for the world EXCEPT for in the US.
So what happens if either of us gets sick in the US? We have air ambulance evacuation out of the US! đ That sort of says it all doesn’t it?
I laugh to myself every time I think of that…
Cheers
#22 – Mr. Mustard,
One point you may be missing about the cost to the drug companies for the R&D is that much of that is done with public money, sometimes in universities. So, as a society, we often, even usually pay for the R&D up front and then have to pay it again in the expensive meds.
What’s worse is when the drug companies explicitly create the condition the drug treats almost out of thin air. This article should nauseate even the most cynical among us.
http://tinyurl.com/28fhe6
#27 – OFTLO,
#5 – Only Israel, if they can be considered democratic rather than theocratic, rates lower than we do.
You know I agree with you 95% of the time, and you are right about the absolute critical need for a National Health Care system⌠But I want to point out that while Israel is a Jewish state, they are a democracy and their government is decidedly not under theocratic control. (that is what makes Israel different from The United States)
Yes. We certainly agree a lot more than we disagree. I would have written exactly that a few months ago. Would that it were true. Did you know that if you are born of Jewish parents and live in Israel, you may only be married by a Rabbi? Marriage of Jews by any other official is not allowed. That is what made me realize that religion really is a strong part of government there.
Funny thing is that the assholes that put that into law are probably the same shitheads that don’t believe Israel should exist because the messiah has not yet arrived.
(big aside)
Perhaps W is the messiah. After the messiah there will be peace on Earth. The moon is peaceful … and lifeless. Perhaps the messiah is one who will turn the Earth into a lifeless rock.
(/big aside)
>>One point you may be missing about the cost to the drug
>>companies for the R&D is that much of that is done with
>>public money, sometimes in universities.
I’m not missing the point at all, Scottie. With the exception of very basic research (ie, no real application to drug development) and a few high-profile things like AIDS vaccines, virtually none of the costs of of drug development are done with “public money”. Certainly not any of the astonishingly expensive human clinical trials.
And drug development costs are skyrocketing every day. Nobody wants another VIOXX or Phen-Fen, and large, long-term safety studies are very expensive.
In 2003, it was estimated that the cost for developing a single successful new drug (including costs for failed development candidates) is about ONE POINT SEVEN BILLION DOLLARS.
Maybe you or ECA imagine that companies are going to make a decent ROI by charging $0.15 for a pill that “costs” them $0.10 in raw materials and manufacturing, but it’s just not going to happen. If people want effective and SAFE drugs, they’re going to cost.
To put things in perspective, though, at a cost of $2,000,000,000.00 per week for the war in Iraq, we could have a new blockbuster drug ever 5 or 6 days.
It never fails to amaze me how some people can turn ANY story into a political or religious soap box. How dare you make a comment like “How much you want to also bet they were Christians?” If you had substituted the word “Muslims” or “Jews” or any number of other faiths you would have been burned at the stake but for some reason nobody seems to care if it’s “Christians”. You are a genius! You’ve found a way to have your opinion forever ignored in just one sentence! Way to go.
“Do you really need to get in an anti-Christian digg on every post â even if it is pure speculation?”
That’s not a “anti-Christian digg”; it’s a anti-hypocrite digg.
“why do Doctors still make more than nearly every occupation in this country other than a CEO ”
Maybe because they bust ass and study for YEARS to get those two letters at the end of their name, and have an amazing amount of knowledge. Of all the things to complain about in health care, the salary of health care providers is not one of them.
#53: Most things have been turned into religious or political issues when they become controversial. It’s just a fact of American life today. And you only have to listen to conservative radio for a short time to hear them spouting this or that about their religion, and usually it’s from a Christian perspective. When you combine the two, you get — more often than not — a stunning lack of compassion or understanding from people who profess a belief in a religion which is all about compassion and understanding for your fellow man. In other words, greedy Christian hypocrites. My experience has been that you just don’t hear that kind of thing from Jews and Muslims much.
#52 – MM,
To put things in perspective, though, at a cost of $2,000,000,000.00 per week for the war in Iraq, we could have a new blockbuster drug ever 5 or 6 days.
In the programming field, we call this the “nine women still can’t make a baby in a month fallacy.” Sometimes, throwing more resources at a problem doesn’t necessarily speed it up. Besides, aren’t we already a society of over-medicated fools? How many new drugs do we need?
Read the link in my prior post #50. These companies not only manufacture the drugs, they also manufacture many of the conditions. I think we don’t need that aspect of drug research at all.
>>ânine women still canât make a baby in a month fallacy.â
Tsk tsk, Scottie. I wasn’t suggesting that this would really happen. I was merely providing the comparison “to put things in perspective”. Those are our priorities.
And I don’t think that drug companies “manufacture many of the conditions”. Some of them are overblown, yes. In many other cases, people 25 or 100 years ago simply lived lives of quiet desperation, now knowing that whatever was making them miserable or sick was a disease, and could be treated.
There’s no doubt that drug companies are going to pimp their wares, same as the next guy. I don’t see how that differs from multi-core processors, This Year’s Car, the latest TV/DVD mumbo-jumbo trying to convince people to watch the same old crap on a $10,000 home theater, or any other side effect of a (semi-) free marketplace.
If you really don’t think that penicillin, beta-blockers, carboplatin, or sleeping pills are safe and effective, don’t take them.
#55 – You’re probably right Dave. I guess I just wish people would actually live what their faith teaches instead of the bastardized version that seems so prevalent today. I consider myself a Christian, however, I don’t currently attend any church due to the problems that most seem to be having. I believe in evolution and believe in the scientific process. Unfortunately, only the extreme believers in any issue get publicity. I don’t believe that abortion is right, however, I believe that “anti abortion” protesters are the Devil incarnate. They are doing more to hurt their cause then any “pro” abortionist could ever do. It’s the same with almost any issue today. I’m sure there are a vast majority of Muslims that are peace loving people but do they get the limelight? No way, it’s the radicals that get the attention. Given all this, I would still appreciate it if you could keep the “Christian” type comments to yourself and be a bit less biased.
Hey, John maybe you should run for congress. Your not about technology any more. We need someone like you to rid us of these Christian types. Hey, you can start with me. I stopped reading msnbc because of there anti-christian rants. Now, I’ll stop reading your crap.
#51 – Did you know that if you are born of Jewish parents and live in Israel, you may only be married by a Rabbi?
Yes. That is unfortunate and true and endemic of the complex issues that Israel grapples with. The struggle between orthodox and reformed Jews, and their perceived need to preserve “the right of return” gives rise to rules such as this.
To the Jews, if you are born Jewish, you are Jewish even if you do not practice. It’s as much an ethnicity as a religion.
But here is the distinction I’d ask you to consider. The decision to make that policy of Jews only being married by Rabbis was made by a democratically elected government, representing the majority of Israelis… If is not forced upon non-Jews… No non-Jew is forced to observe Jewish traditions… and no Synagogue has the power to impose such rules. The “church” is subservient to the government.
So yes… tragically, there is such a policy. But that doesn’t change the fact that Israel is not a theocracy.
#61 – Bye.
#59 – MM,
If you really donât think that penicillin, beta-blockers, carboplatin, or sleeping pills are safe and effective, donât take them.
Ambien’s actually a great example. I do wake up in the middle of the night quite often. And, I don’t take ambien for it and sill continue not to do so. Penicillin’s great for what needs it, but let’s stop prescribing antibiotics for viruses OK? It only makes the antibiotics worth less and even worthless when really needed.
#62 – OFTLO,
Yes. As someone who fits one of the definitions of Jewish but not the other, I’m fully aware of the issue of Jewish as race versus Jewish as religion. It’s one of the reasons that Israel’s policy on the subject offends me.
But here is the distinction Iâd ask you to consider. The decision to make that policy of Jews only being married by Rabbis was made by a democratically elected government, representing the majority of Israelis⌠If is not forced upon non-Jews⌠No non-Jew is forced to observe Jewish traditions⌠and no Synagogue has the power to impose such rules. The âchurchâ is subservient to the government.
So yes⌠tragically, there is such a policy. But that doesnât change the fact that Israel is not a theocracy.
Incorrect. The fact that the majority ruled it to be so, does not make a democracy. Part of the job of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. This is becoming a problem here and is clearly a problem there. If a religious government is duly elected, as it was in Iran and will likely be in Iraq, it is still a theocracy because it does not protect the rights of the minority.
Israel is already borderline. The U.S. is becoming increasingly so. I would fight to preserve democracy over theocracy at every step of the way.
#54, Barret,
âwhy do Doctors still make more than nearly every occupation in this country other than a CEO â
Maybe because they bust ass and study for YEARS to get those two letters at the end of their name, and have an amazing amount of knowledge. Of all the things to complain about in health care, the salary of health care providers is not one of them.
Why? Many people have a couple of letters at the end of their name. Quite a few have several sets of letters at the end of their name. Many people spend just as much time learning as do physicians. Quite a few of them spend even more time learning, researching, and writing papers than do physicians. And most of them earn less than do physicians. Some earn a lot less.
It would appear to me that health care salaries should be discussed.
#52, MM,
Iâm not missing the point at all, Scottie. With the exception of very basic research (ie, no real application to drug development) and a few high-profile things like AIDS vaccines, virtually none of the costs of of drug development are done with âpublic moneyâ. Certainly not any of the astonishingly expensive human clinical trials.
Oh, contrare. Most drug research is based upon prior work done by public institutions or knowledge in the public domain.
The expensive part though is all the drug companies trying to reinvent the wheel. When Prozac came out it heralded a new era in mental illness treatments. So all the other drug companies started researching copy drugs. Soon there were a dozen anti-depressant drugs on the market, ALL similar to Prozac in formula and efficacy; none were superior. The drug companies pressured physicians into prescribing their anti-depressant drugs even though there was no real efficacy differance.
The same happened with VIOXX. It is a copy of Celebrex (as is Bextra) and had no noticeable advantage over the other excepting it isn’t as safe. (and the safety of Vioxx is debatable)
68% of new drugs currently coming into the market are copy drugs of existing formulas. (CAO Report in Washington Post)
http://tinyurl.com/ygarug
*
For some reading, try the American Journal of Bioethics
Will Lower Drug Prices Jeopardize Drug Research? A Policy Fact Sheet
(snip)…it took 58% of global R&D expenditures invested in the US to discover only 43% of the more important new drugs …
http://tinyurl.com/25w4h2
The hospital has to make some effort to recoup the money so they may use it as a tax write off. Effen scum bags.