BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Is stealing wireless wrong? — Everyone knows how I stand on this issue. What do the Brits think?
A man has been arrested after being spotted allegedly sitting in a street with a laptop using someone else’s unsecured wireless connection. Is it immoral to do this?
So here’s the thing.
You’re walking down the street in Hypotheticalville and in front of you is a gentleman who, when he walks, spills seemingly endless torrents of golden coins on to the pavement behind him.
He seems unconcerned by this and you notice that if not picked up, these magic coins quickly evaporate. Is it moral for you to pick a few up?
>>Skewed logic
In what way? Straighten it up for me, please.
31. I dont think I could if I wanted to, still funny. Maybe because radio waves are not solid objects, but I get your drift.
Don’t forget, the piggy-backer’s is sending a signal back to the open AP.
A better analogy is your neighbor has a universal remote and watches and controls your TV while you are not home. What if your neighbor changes the channel while you are watching TV?
>>A better analogy is your neighbor has a universal remote and
>>watches and controls your TV while you are not home. What
>>if your neighbor changes the channel while you are
>>watching TV?
Jeez, is this “crappy analogy day”, or what? Nobody is “controlling” the WiFi signal sent out by the non-encrypting offender/ victim. He is broadcasting his radio signals, uninvited, into MY home. I can’t “change the channel”. There is no “universal WiFi remote”. I can’t do ANYTHING (not even prevent him from broadcasting into my home) other than let my computer do what it was bred to do: Connect to that signal and access the internet.
it’s like rape
if she doesn’t notice or complain
you’ve gotten away with it
you’re a starbuck’s values sort of guy
make sure you brag to all your friends
if you have any
and don’t whine when your $5k mountain bike is gone
since you only used three locks
after all a fourth or fifth would have made it more secure
makes me think of the guy that eats other peoples lunches in the company refrigerator
>>It’s like rape
>>if she doesn’t notice or complain
>>you’ve gotten away with it
Dude! Where did you get the ‘shrooms?
(ps: if the women you’re having sex with “don’t notice”, you need to work on your technique).
4,
NOt in the major cities…
In NY its illegal to pickup recycled materials on the curb, unless you are the trash collector..
AND even in court, your trash in MANY states, is PRIVATE until its dumped in the mix.
This is more like someone WATERING their yard…
If you water someone ELSES, do you think they will complain??
This will come down to WHERE is private property.
This may be in the realm of Ariel trespass..
In Britain, a lot of broadband is charged by usage. So, when someone uses someone elses wifi without permission, they can be running up a bill for that person. Just because they were not technically savvy enough to secure it doesn’t make it OK to take.
My analogy… if I was to come along to your house in the morning before you get up and take your unsecured newspaper off of your lawn, would you think I was stealing it?
>>if I was to come along to your house in the morning before you get
>>up and take your unsecured newspaper off of your lawn, would
>>you think I was stealing it?
Sure. But if I went out, picked up the newspaper, and threw it into YOUR HOUSE, that would be a whole ‘nother kettle of fish. TFB for me.
That said, if somebody is paying by usage, then it’s more like stealing. My ISP doesn’t charge that way. Of course, anybody who is stupid enough to allow passers-by to access bandwidth that he is paying for is such a moron that he probably deserves what he gets. It’s not THAT hard to encrypt the signal. Jeez.
39. “Of course, anybody who is stupid enough to allow passers-by to access bandwidth that he is paying for is such a moron that he probably deserves what he gets. It’s not THAT hard to encrypt the signal. Jeez.”
Not for techies, but my late 70’s Mom or Dad couldnt do it, and they’re not morons. It seems to me it would benefit both parties to make it easier to set up encryption upon installation, whether it be by a tech or your average Mom and Pop. The installations I have done werent hard for me, but not for the average end user.
No other thread here as ever convinced me
more of the truth of the old adage: argument
by analogy is always suspect.
>>Not for techies, but my late 70’s Mom or Dad couldnt do
>>it, and they’re not morons.
Well, far be it from me to ever suggest Verizon for ANYTHING (unless you like talking to tech support guys in Mumbai and Chennai with limited English skills), but my recently acquired Verizon DSL/ WiFi modem has encryption as the default. If you don’t know the WEP key (which you can read on a sticker attached to the modem), you can’t get on.
Granted, Cliff Stoll or an equal might be able to hack in, but how much of a problem is that sort of thing in real life? It’s Mom and Pop in their 70’s and college students tapping into the neighbor’s WiFi signal. Unless you’re a bank or the CIA, WEP is probably more than enough.
True analogies or, not responsibility MUST lie with the WiFi transmitting person as its obviously creating a public nuisance over there with WiFi Free Riders roaming about helping to run up WiFi owners bills.
I say, the Brit Gov should put the heat on WiFi owners to make this a non-issue. Seems that encryption should be, if technically possible, be the default upon installation by anybody, regardless of tech savvy. Its called “The Instructions” people. If you can’t read’em, you don’t need WiFi.
Better yet, put the heat on the WiFi transmitter manufacturers to make it mandatory default encryption as well…again, if possible. 75% of car safety equipment was Gov. mandated because the manufacturers were of the mind, “Car owners take your chances and we’ll take your money.”
Jeez, it’s not like you were stealing underwear off their clothes line. My iPhone finds any open access point and grabs on like a leech.
>>Seems that encryption should be, if technically possible, be
>>the default upon installation by anybody, regardless of tech
>>savvy. Its called “The Instructions” people. If you can’t
>>read’em, you don’t need WiFi.
Well, it sure as shit IS technically possible. To wit: my Verizon DSL/ WiFi modem.
As to “the instructions”, let’s not get too carried away overestimating Americans’ abilities to interpret and understand Engrish. Or whatever. I have installed 5 Verizon and Comcast DSL or cable modem connections (2 for myself, 3 for others), and EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM required a call to Mumbai or Chennai or Mysore (koff, koff) or somewhere to make it work. (The encryption part was NEVER a problem, btw). And every call ended up with me typing in some obscure dotted-quad address and dicking around with setting that nobody in their right mind would EVER know how to dick around with. The “highly trained” technical support personnel in Mumbai or Chennai or Mysore (koff, koff) could find no way to allow me to execute the installation programs on the supplied CD to get the connection to work.
As long as it isn’t a metered connection how is this stealing? If you were paying per mbit then yes, otherwise get a life!
Mister Mustard and all the other less than bright lights.
If you tap into someone’s service that is stealing. What you forget is if it is a pay per usage then you are taking their usage. If it is a straight account, then you are depriving the ISP of bandwidth. Either way, you are taking something that is NOT FREE.
It might be free to listen in on an unencrypted broadcast, but as soon as you start using their equipment to access, you crossed the line.
Ralphie; If anyone is concerned about having their “bandwidth” “stolen”, they should take steps so they don’t BEAM IT RIGHT THE FUCK INTO MY HOME. Not only are they invading my space, they’re interfering with my ability to connect to *MY* ISP.
*pow*, right in the kisser.
Now, get back on the bus, and keep driving.
@MM “they should take steps so they don’t BEAM IT RIGHT THE FUCK INTO MY HOME”
Nice!
Anyone else agree that #7 is the winner? —> “We’re talking about a radio wave. If I broadcast into the ether, is it wrong for my radio to tune into your frequency.”
If a tree hangs over onto my property then the fruit of that tree that is over the line is mine by law.
I am worried about parents who try to protect/monitor their kid’s internet browsing. I know my parents do this by killing the Wifi before they take off to work and when they go to bed. If someone is letting an open access point into their home it could make such monitoring a bit more difficult.
I dont know about the rest of you, but when I have serious trouble with my comp or other tech related things I have friends, family, or a professional that I can call up and have work on my system.
No excuses here. If you are having trouble with your connection then find someone who can fix it. Cant afford it? Too bad! If I dont know how to repair my sink I have to call a plumber or go without a sink. If you can’t find someone to fix you connection go wired or go without…
I don’t think its stealing, its more when it abused, for example if your totaly hammering sombody line with torrents, thats a big no for me, but if your just flicking threw doing everday surfing then yeh.
#48, Mustard
The radio waves coming into your home are NOT intrusive. They are as benign as sunlight. Listen in all day if you chose, that is not the issue. When, however, you start broadcasting back, then that becomes the issue. You are using the ISP’s bandwidth and the owner’s router WITHOUT PERMISSION.
If their signal is causing interference with your home, then you have a right to complain. But you don’t have any right to take.
If a wind storm blows your lawn chair into my yard, it doesn’t become mine. Some might even suggest I have a duty to return the chair. If the chair damaged my petunias, then I might have a complaint. Until you tell me I can keep the chair, I may not treat it as my own.
*
This isn’t about stupidity on the owner. Blaming the victim of theft has never ameliorated the culpability of the thief.
This not similar to a tree hanging over the property line. Yes, you may take the fruit but you may not kill the tree.
It doesn’t matter if my door is locked. If you enter my home uninvited you are trespassing. It doesn’t matter if the car is locked, stealing it is still theft.
This isn’t the same as using your remote to change the neighbor’s TV channel. That would be mischief, a separate criminal charge.
It doesn’t matter if there is nothing solid and tangible. If you tap into some electric lines and use the free flowing electrons then that also is theft. If I make a movie that is near word for word the same as your book, that is theft.
*
If there is any analogies, one would be something like a police scanner. Listen in all day if you like. Just don’t try using it for your own broadcasts. Or riding a transit bus. It doesn’t matter if the bus is going that way anyway, you are still expected to buy a ticket. The same as the ISP expects you to buy an account.
Hm. Interesting points, Mr. Driver.
52, Very well said.
It is an owner’s responsibility to lock their house.
There’s a difference (as there should be) between someone stealing an unlocked car (with keys in the ignition) or an unlocked parked bike…than someone breaking into it, or cutting the bike lock. Still illegal, but don’t expect much sympathy.
If I don’t want viruses on my computer, it is MY responsibility to install virus protection. I don’t dangle net cables into my neighbors yard, either. If I want to use wireless without someone “stealing it”, it is MY responsibility to encrypt it.
There are no “fool-proof” methods for protecting your stuff. Doesn’t exist. However, if you don’t even bother to take the smallest precaution, then it should still be on your head for being a moron. If someone hacked my encrypted WiFi, I’d have a different opinion than if someone’s Nintendo DS parked itself automatically on my connection. If it’s illegal, it’s illegal until otherwise…but it doesn’t excuse the owner from not using common sense.
A man standing ON THE SIDWALK and using the airwave SENT TO HIM from an unsecured router cannot be compared to a B&E or burglary. HE IS ON THE SIDEWALK, he is not entering ayone’s home (even if wide open!).
If you threw out *anything* over the window out on the street or walkway, don’t be surprised if someone else find it useful and uses it. Same with wireless.
Granted, the airwaves cannot be told to “not leave the premises” without expensive hardware, but thats for what we have various securing schemes available.
Simply if someone don’t care what is being thrown out on the street, he has no right to sue anyone picking it up on the street.
OTOH I thought onlu USA is full of idiots and sleazy lawyers who’d sue their own mothers for a birthmark on the sole of their feet – apparently this society cancer is spreading everywhere 🙁
(“Hot!” warning on a HOT cup of coffee and other idiocies we all can thank to US lawyers…)
There is no hope for USA I guess.
#52 Ralph:
I have to agree with Ralph. When you “transmit” a data request to your neighbor’s wireless network and cause additional bandwidth to be used, you are no longer just a listener. It is difficult to come up with a simple analogy to this.
Ralph wrote:
“If there is any analogies, one would be something like a police scanner. Listen in all day if you like. ”
As a side note, don’t listen to the frequencies between 824-851MHz and 869-694MHz if you live in the USA. The Electronic Communications Protections Act of 1984 makes it illegal to listen to these frequencies (cellular phone calls). This was the first time in the history of the US that listening to a unencrypted radio signal of any kind became illegal.
>>A man standing ON THE SIDWALK and using the airwave
>>SENT TO HIM from an unsecured router cannot be compared
>>to a B&E or burglary. HE IS ON THE SIDEWALK,
888, are you sure you’re not ECA in drag??
#55, Jamie,
Don’t confuse prudence for responsibility. While it may be prudent to lock your car, don’t blame the victim if someone steals it. While it might be prudent to not allow 14 yr old girls to drink, sex with them is still illegal. It might be prudent to install a firewall and AV on your computer, but that doesn’t mean malware is OK otherwise.
#29 – micromike
“In the US if you don’t lock your house you can never get a burglary conviction if you are robbed. Similarly to prove trespassing in the US you must prove the person intended to damage your property when they crossed the property line. In general if something can be locked but isn’t, it is usually not a crime to help yourself.”
I have to ask you, lad… where o where did you get these bizarre misconceptions?
a) “In the US” NOTHING. The laws vary from state to state. What’s felony breaking and entering in State A is misdemeanor unlawful entry in State B and simple trespass in State C.
b) “…if you don’t lock your house you can never get a burglary conviction if you are robbed…”
Sorry, son, you will look long and hard, and come back very disappointed if you go look for the jurisdiction which permits “open season” on your belongings. You can set your TV on your front lawn – if it doesn’t have a sign reading “Free” or “Take Me”, it’s still theft when someone takes it without your say-so.
A different matter is insurance. If you fail to take “reasonable measures” such as locking your doors, your policy may deny you coverage for whatever’s stolen. But whoever stole it still committed SOME crime, no matter what state you live in. If you did not explicitly put a sign up that says “Free Stuff” or “Take whatever you want,” no one has the right to enter private property and remove anything.
c) “Similarly to prove trespassing in the US you must prove the person intended to damage your property when they crossed the property line.”
Nonsense. Completely wrong. There are thousands and thousands of differing trespass laws all over the US. Permission to enter property can be implied in many cases, but in others it must be spelled out. And something that holds basically everywhere – a sign forbidding trespassing does just that, whether someone “intends to damage” the property or not.
d) “In general if something can be locked but isn’t, it is usually not a crime to help yourself.”
Someone has hoodwinked you. Your negligence in not securing your property against entry or theft in no way grants anyone else any right to enter or take what is still legally yours.
I suggest you not try out these novel legal theories of yours, since nearly everywhere, entering an unlocked house constitutes breaking and entering or at least unlawful entry, either of which is a criminal offense.
Sorry, micromike, but I don’t think you’re quite ready to practice criminal law. 😉