William Lobdell
WHEN Times editors assigned me to the religion beat, I believed God had answered my prayers.
I wanted to report objectively and respectfully about how belief shapes people’s lives. Along the way, I believed, my own faith would grow deeper and sturdier.
But during the eight years I covered religion, something very different happened.
My soul, for lack of a better term, had lost faith long ago — probably around the time I stopped going to church. My brain, which had been in denial, had finally caught up.
Clearly, I saw now that belief in God, no matter how grounded, requires at some point a leap of faith. Either you have the gift of faith or you don’t. It’s not a choice. It can’t be willed into existence. And there’s no faking it if you’re honest about the state of your soul.
Well dang, he can’t well up faith. Guess he’s gonna have to burn for eternity now, cuz of, you know, God’s unconditional love n’ all.
… belief in God, no matter how grounded, requires at some point a leap of faith.
Therefore, it is not grounded at all. This statement is self-contradictory.
Either you have the gift of faith or you don’t.
Faith is not a gift. It’s a delusion. This guy seems to have not only been not good at religion, he seems to have been pretty bad at writing as well.
Also, claiming that faith is not a choice brings up the whole issue of whether religion is genetic. This should spark a nice long debate both in and out of the scientific community that will closely resemble the debate about homosexuality.
Actually, there are already debates in evolutionary biology about whether the ability to believe in crap gave us an evolutionary edge or whether it is an evolutionary byproduct of some other feature in our brains that is actually useful.
Either way, despite the fact that he has come over to at least some level of nontheism, from this little snippet, I think I don’t particularly like this guy. It sounds as if he’s still judging nontheists, now including himself, somewhat negatively.
I’ll read the full article later and see if I still feel that way.
Finally, someone who fesses up to their real feelings. I think many people go to church because of duty, or maybe just a half ass belief that they must in order to get into to a better place when they die.
It is obvious that they don’t really believe or their actions in the rest of their lives would be better. The problem is people are not affraid of doing wrong anymore. They still believe something good will happen to them. Maybe it will? I think blind faith is over for many. We as a humans question our faith more than we ever have before.
his main problem was being a writer requires you to think about your topic. You cant really think about your religion without losing faith in it…
As much as I enjoy poking fun at Scientology and their ridiculous alien space ship story, is it really anymore ridiculous than any other religion? no.
Is there a broader context?
How about anything else you believe?
How about GOUSA? FREEDOM? The free market system? Politics? Democracy? Love? Hate? Your Children?
Where have you taken that leap of faith?
@ 5.
There is an essential difference between talking about believe in one’s country, freedom, economics, politics, etc. and about one’s religion. All of the things you mentioned are able to be ‘seen’ and understood, while religion is something unseen and the writer is correct, requires faith. I don’t know if thats something that a person is just born with, but I also seem not to be able to make that ‘leap’.
All the things you mention are human things, earthly things, but religion or rather just faith in a higher being, is unhuman. It is believing in an afterlife without any proof at all, and praying to a ‘god’ that can’t seem to stop human idiocy and human violence.
6–Evan, thats one way to define it/look at it==but another is that all things mentioned are just constructs for the real world we find ourselves in.
An example that comes to mind is the stone cold killer caught in the act and the parents who claim “he’s a good kid” and the social leaders who want to claim racism and such?
Just a stab at trying to look at “belief systems.” There is something to learn about it, something man made and not “real” even though it can apply to myths as well as to reality?
Or maybe not? But I think many accepted invalid belief system interfere with gaining a better life, just like religion does.
#6 ( Evan ) – ¡ Touché !
Since there is no empirical proof ( yet ), as much faith is required to be an atheist or agnostic as is the amount of Faith required to believe in God.
Both nature and nurture play a big role in choosing either the upper case ‘ F ‘ or the lower case ‘ f ‘.
Allen McDonald, El Galloviejo®
#8–Allen==how much faith is it taking you not to believe in “Gommbango?” None you say? I thought so.
>>Since there is no empirical proof ( yet ), as much faith is required to
>>be an atheist or agnostic as is the amount of Faith required to
>>believe in God.
Uh-oh. Estás jugando con fuego, viejito! You’re going to annoy a lot of self-proclaimed naughty, dangerous boys by stating that they are as faithful as the Faithful. That’s sacrilege!
Ah, it’s Monday morning. The ignorant are here, refreshed from their Sunday fix of refusing to face facts.
See there, your work is not in vain here. Keep these anti religious threads going and you will make serious headway.
#10==M Mustard, how much faith is it taking you not to believe in “Gommbango?” None you say? I thought so.
>>how much faith is it taking you not to
>>believe in “Gommbango?”
Have a cup of coffee, bobbo. You’ll start making sense any minute now!
14–You don’t see the logic here? VERY self evident. Maybe that beer rather than the cup of coffee would make all things clear? I wonder if you see it, and reject it, or don’t see it at all, all wrapped up in dogma as it is?
Yes, another Monday to begin the week.
>>You don’t see the logic here?
Sure I see the logic, bobster. Personal belief about the existence of a higher power is just that. Personal belief. And it requires a leap of faith. One way or the other. Is it so hard to admit that?
Your continuing unwillingness to accept that self-evident fact continues to fuel suspicion that you are somehow on the payroll of Mr. Dvorak, trolling for blog hits.
Tsk, tsk.
It seems that most people lose their faith when they stop obeying. Faith brings obedience, which means you have to do something. Here is where most just can’t handle living by God’s authority.
16–M Mustard, but thats not the topic at all. The topic is whether or not the same quality of faith exists in the belief in a God compared to NOT believing in that God. You repeatedly aver that both are the same thing, that not collecting stamps is a hobby. You haven’t explained the benefit or consequence of such equivilancy of believing that opposites are the same, but perhaps that is the central mystery you are keeping from usl: limiting that knowledge only to a central core of true believers? Belief in what??? – — – THATS the secret!
Oh you leap of faithers, can leap so far!! I can only look on in rapt amazement.
>>You repeatedly aver that both are the same thing
Oh, but they are, bobbo. And if you can’t understand the difference between “not collecting stamps” and “denying that stamps exist, or that anybody collects them”, then I’m getting tired of this discussion long before I thought I would.
Palavering with the dense, the obtuse, and those in denial is not the way I choose to start the week.
19–oK MM –thought I saw a pretty good response to this point on the other thread, but if that didn’t pry open the door, nothing I can add would.
So, seems to me I asked you you didn’t respond, ((or maybe I just dreamed it?)) Faith in God==belief in something that is illogical and has not one shread of proof to support it.
No faith in God==belief in what can be proven and reproducted by repeated testing.
What can I learn about the scientific method by realizing it is just another form or example of faith?
bobbo, you’re becoming tiresome.
if you truly don’t understand the difference between “no faith in god” and “faith that god does not exists”, then i’m wasting my time with you. go back to studying for your GED.
over and out.
People have always asked basic questions like, where do we come from? Why are we here? What happens when we die? The guy who makes up the best story gets privilege and power. It’s a con and it always has been.
Within a few weeks of 9/11, I attended a wedding. At our table were two rather “religious” women along with my wife and I. Almost six years later and I still remember the argument coming out that we are not allowed to question God’s will. Of course they had no explanation for why God would allow 3,000 people to die like that. Or why God would put such a devoted woman (one of the wedding party) in a wheel chair. Or why we could be eating in such fine style when so many of those innocent children were going to bed hungry.
I came away understanding that this isn’t faith. It is willful blindness.
So it looks like (in this forum at least), our God is confined to being in control of this world. Please accept my paraphrasing Jesus’ teachings as ‘Love is the only way in which our world actually functions’ – as in it doesn’t break apart. Then faith doesn’t seem so stupid, because it does away with these inane questions of God’s existence and control. When you focus on how love makes the world work, then you see that God was not about letting 3000 people die on 9/11, but about what happens when people hate and when people help.
Mr. Fusion,
I believe Jesus would have answered you like this?
Luke 13
3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4: Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Ashmembers, you have just committed apostasy in the eyes of the Atheist Church.
I always enjoy the postings when it comes to religion. I just feel bad for all the flimsy straw men that get knocked down time and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and againand again and againand again and againand again and again.
Those straw men arguments must just feel they are getting bullied. I feel badly for them.
The reality is, it is easy to make fun of people of faith, but all of us have blind faith in some major aspect of our lives, something that we beleive in where we accept someone else’s word for it, without much reflection. We call that fundamentalism in others, but sophistication in ourselves. Thus a bit of humility isn’t a bad thing.
My bet is the writer ends up in a seminary within 10 years; several yuears ago I read a journal article that surveyed seminarians and found a majority of them entered seminary to resolve a personal faith crisis they had.
#22… Good point, Mr. Fusion, although I’ve never been able to quite make the distinction that you see. Without that phrase “willful blindness” (or a suitable equivalent), I would struggle to find an adequate definition for faith. In any case, the admonition that “we are not allowed to question God’s will” is what I call the self-preservation clause in religion. Without it, most religions would not survive.
>>We call that fundamentalism in others, but
>>sophistication in ourselves.
Very good point, Mr/Ms Nova.
There are no mistakes in life, just lessons to learn. And until people stop looking outside themselves for completeness they will never know what is inside, what is fundamental in all, that which cannot be objectively observed but only subjectively experienced. And that is what we ALL are looking for, whether you believe it or not, that is the truth.