Rolling Stone : Propaganda, Wrapped in Lies, Covering up Murder? — Anyone who recalls the Viet Nam war knows about “fragging.” This was the practice of killing an officer or leader who was impossible to work with or who might have been disliked or dangerous or both. This practice, named after a hand grenade technique of murder, is something that will never go away as long as soldiers are heavily armed. This would explain the extremes that the Army went through to cover-up the Tillman death since he was a poster boy for volunteers and patriotism.
Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman’s forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player’s death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.”The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described,” a doctor who examined Tillman’s body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.
The doctors — whose names were blacked out — said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.
previous story about Tillman here.
More coverage here.
Was Pat Tillman Fragged by His Own Men?
I don’t know.
It isn’t clear to me whether or not someone credibly believes it was an intentional killing. What could the motive be?
What could the motive be? Uh, maybe he was a gung ho, self-centered prick? That was a good enough reason in Nam.
It sounds pretty credible.
If you follow the “more coverage here” link it sounds like the medical examiners were completly shut down when they originally attempted to start an investigation.
Here are the four bullet points they give as to the questions raised by the report
In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop “sniveling.”
• Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.
• The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman’s death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and could not recall details of his actions.
• No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.
Armies are mobile microcosms of their societies. Soldiers are only as disciplined and decent as the people and nations they come from. Which is another reminder, why war is a bad thing.
friendly fire doesn’t have to be malicious, any incompetent dumbass will do. who knows what happened to tillman, war is hell
Pat Tillman wanted to be a war hero all his life which is why he gave up a lucrative career to join the military. I think his fellow soldiers did him a favor by killing him so that his dream would come true. The cover-up was just a further attempt to make Tillman’s dream a reality.
Pat Tillman died a hero. I hope there’s a heaven otherwise he died an asshole.
It was well known that Pat Tillman was less and less happy with his army service after the invasion of Iraq, even writing home calling the invasion “so illegal”.
It is also well known that he kept a detailed journal of his service, which was burned by the troops after his death lest anyone ever got their hands on it.
The conspiracy theory goes that he was murdered because of very embarrasing to the army/Bush content contained in his journal. No doubt his journal in book form would have been a huge best seller.
#7….apparently only **well known** by you.
Tillman was killed by friendly fire….maybe in 20 or 30 years we will know if it was a fragging or not.
As an Arizona Cardinal, Tillman was popular, and a pretty decent guy…..who knows if he was a prick out of sight, but those who do aren’t saying….so we may never know just how *friendly or unfriendly that friendly fire* was.
#8, joshua,
Once again you haven’t bothered to read the story. This topic is about the possibility that he was purposely killed by Americans. The term is fragging. On a battlefield it is usually impossible to determine if close arms friendly fire was accidental.
Whether or not he was a “prick” is irrelevant. The point that it was covered up is very relevant. There is no need to wait one year, let alone 20.
HEAD SHOT!!
#8 “A lot of people have been contacting me concerning the piece in the San Francisco Chronicle about Pat Tillman. (For those who have been hiding under a rock, Tillman was the former NFL football player who gave up a multi-million dollar contract to enlist in the army in 2002. He served two tours of duty, the first in the invasion of Iraq and the second in Afghanistan, where he was killed in a “friendly fire” incident the Pentagon tried to cover up.) According to the Chron, Tillman was far from the right-wing poster child the right–and the left, including me–took him to be. He regarded the Iraq war (although not the Afghan invasion) as illegal and read a lot of Chomsky.”
http://tinyurl.com/3clv9q
The conspiracy in detail
http://tinyurl.com/39xjdq
Did anyone investigate to find out if Pat Tillman was an asshole? When I was in the Army I met several people that I thought I would have to shoot first before I went into battle with them.
Going to battle is one thing, going with some people that could not be trusted is entirely another. The tightly groups shots in the head sounds like something more than friendly fire. And now they want to make some innocent General a scape goat? Really makes you want to go right out and join up, huh? No wonder they are having problems recruiting.
#8 – Tillman was a Cardinal? I didn’t even know he was Catholic!
Boy this stinks to high heaven doesn’t it?
Stories I’ve heard about fragging more often than not involve a gung-ho type guy out to be a hero==volunteering the squad for duty, drawing fire to the squad, etc–stuff that gets you killed. Very few assholes get fragged, “everybody” is an asshole, not much differentiation to go on.
So rarely any reason to lie. Course, if you just killed someone, that could be a reason.
#7 – ArianeB
“The conspiracy theory goes that he was murdered because of very embarrasing to the army/Bush content contained in his journal.”
Time to check Uncle Dick’s hands for gunpowder residue…
I remember listening to him give Jim Rome and interview a day or two before he shipped out for basic training. He wanted to join up for the right reasons. He was very soft spoken and respectful, continually calling Jim Rome (who is often a prick) “Sir”.
Asshole or not (and from what I have seen, I am voting for “not”), something very. very wrong took place here.
#9…Fusion…Once again your vision is faulty. I know what the story is about. I’m saying that if this was a fragging….it may never be known for a fact. It’s tough to prove fragging as long as the princibles stick to the agreed on theme.
As far as his being an asshole….I personally don’t believe he was….I met him at Cardinals events, and he was always a really nice guy. But, as I said above, unless someone knew him up close and personal, anything is possible.
The cover up of the truth about how he died is why the *innocent* General is getting demoted.
Pat Tillman was old school. He gave up a very lucrative career in the NFL to join the military out of duty. I remember the folks on ESPN praising his lack of selfishness. And yes, those same folks honored him during NFL games and there were moments of silence in his honor.
Of course, to me, a picture of Pat Tillman would have the a plaque with the following inscription under his name, “World’s Biggest Sucker”.
Yes, Pat, you gave up a lucrative career not to serve your country (although you were told that you were) but to serve Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. Didn’t you know that going in? Of course, you thought you were serving America, didn’t you?
As one soldier mentioned in his blog, war is a great business. Halliburtion’s stock has gone from 5 to 30, and that is what Vietnam was all about, making Halliburton (then Brown and Root) et. al money. And while you served and were paid peanuts, Halliburton “advisers” were making 10X what you were. To quote the blogger, war is so profitable, the only time I would ever fight again would be if we were attacked or the constitution was threatened.
The only other reason for Americans to fight is if they are paid handsomely to do so. Most of the wars our country has fought have been more about money than our defense.
Of course, some will say that we were attacked, and I agree, we were. In Oklahoma City by McVeigh and by Bin Laden with the USS Cole and American embassies prior to 9-11. But with 9-11, there was the endless media coverage, so you felt you had to jump in and help. Just like with Katrina, the media went at it non stop.
Of course, just like Katrina, we were asked to help when in actuality, our government, whom we pay taxes to work for us, screwed up royally. You should have turned off your TV and quit listening to the media. I couldn’t even watch a football game without being hit up with a Katrina message (as if the only people in the world suffering were Katrina victims).
Why is it that we Americans rally around our leaders when tragedy strikes when the tragedy is so often due to their own neglect? Why isn’t our first reaction to grab our leaders by the collar and ask, “how in the hell did you let this happen”?
It’s not like 9-11 was the first time Bin Laden attacked us. And there was the infamous FBI memos showing that we knew 2 of the 11 terrorists were in the U.S. And other memos suggesting that terrorists were going to use planes as weapons. Hell, the whole idea of using a plane as a weapon was written about years before in a Tom Clancy novel.
I will never understand why a corporation like Merck is raked over the coals because it should have known Vioxx caused heart attacks, and no one rakes the government over the coals for its incompetence with tragedies like 9-11. No one was fired over 9-11. Can you imagine the response if Merck asked citizens for help from its “tragedy” with Vioxx?
I will never understand why corporations like Merck are held to a higher standard than our own government.
There are some that think that Bush and Cheney knew about 9-11 and allowed it to happen. Personally, I think that is given them way more credit than they deserve. What is not in dispute is that there was ample evidence that Bin Laden was going to attack us and those two morons did little to prevent it. To me, they were more stupid than malicious.
And so Mr. Tillman, I admire your courage, your lack of selfishness, and your patriotism, but in the end, I deplore your naivete and call you, “The World’s Biggest Sucker”. And if you were alive today, somehow I think you would agree with me.
Sounds very likely that Tillman may have pissed someone off and in the heat and stress of battle with plenty of ammo avaliable someone decided to act out their thoughts. Not unlike violence in America with handguns. If you don’t have a gun you would fight it out. If you do then you shoot someone. Training military to kill can even help make this happen. Your just not supposed to kill each other.It’s obvious Tillman was a over acheaver and it’s not surprising that some entry men did not like him. This does not excuse their actions!
the best thing about all of this is that no one misses this asshole rofl
19–jz–Nice eulogy. Deserves some comments.
Its one thing to defend one’s country, not too sure about anyone wtih options who volunteers for combat in foreign lands. Could be “patriotic” to some degree but more likely mostly something else?
How could anyone that reads Chomsky volunteer for a BushCo war effort? That always sounded a bit Public Relations to me—unless he was reading Chomsky for the disagreement, which I have not heard.
“I will never understand why corporations like Merck are held to a higher standard than our own government.” //// Because our King has reserved sovereign immunity for its own actions. And rather than “allow” such misfortunes, in the main, I think our government creates these situations. Not Katrina, but Iraq?==most definitely.
America is a merchantile nation. We are about making money, not about exercising power. We don’t have the stomach to do those things that would have prevented 9/11, still don’t as our open borders show==business making money triumphs national security. I recall reading during those events of small aircraft landing on the whitehouse lawn that there were anti-aircraft guns mounted on the roof? Sounds more like a fantasy as I say that outloud==but I believe that bureaucrats rarely think outside the box, even when thinking of saving their own hides. So I believe BushCo never had a firm notion that attack by planes was a likelihood. Given GOUSA’s inhibition to act, I doubt such knoledge could have been acted on anyway.
Good Post.
Hey jz, everyone should read this. Should be required reading in school.
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
Tillman was murdered by the military as directed by the top Army brass. He was going to become a vocal opponent of the war and the illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. This would have been extremely embarrassing to the Bush Administration, so it was important that Tillman died “in combat”. There were three bullet holes in Tillman’s forehead from a range of ten yards, indicating execution, not friendly fire. General Wesley Clark, on Olbermann’s show stated that the orders came from the top to cover up the investigation:
http://tinyurl.com/2tzbbv
[Please use TinyUrl.com for overly long URLs. – ed.]
Geeze oh Pete !!!
I wish people would stop posting youtube videos as PROOF of something. I also wish they would stop linking opinion pieces by obscure writers as PROOF.
People, it doesn’t matter which asshole it came out of, an opinion is just an opinion, it is nothing more then that and should never get in the way of FACTS. If you have some facts from a reputable source then fine, cite that source.
#8, Arriane,
If you have something to comment, then say it. Quoting passages from another opinion piece doesn’t tell anyone what YOU think.
#23, dwright,
Why should this be required reading. I got through the first chapter and quit. There were too many factual errors. I’m not mentioning the philosophical arguments, I’m talking errors.
#25, Dfaver,
You insinuate Clark said Tillman was assassinated. He didn’t. Clark only suggested and commented on a cover-up of the facts of friendly fire vs enemy fire. He is too smart a man to suggest there is a conspiracy.
#26
I posted what I think in post #7, joshua challenged me in post #8. I posted what I posted in #11 to prove it is not just me saying these things.
Back in the murky sixties there was a destroyer squadron at sea that lost their commander over the side during heavy weather. The scuttlebutt had it he was an asshole, and someone helped him over board on one of those “Dark And Stormy” nights.
How can anyone know all the answers until the hearing? What have his comrades said about him? I’ve only read about someone who changed testimony. That’s a problem and fuels the more investigation crowd. You may be ok to frag a bad soldier, but DON’T CHANGE YOUR STORY. To those who support murder, why do it so dumb and burn evidence? I don’t want anyone murdered. Why didn’t they just wreck his reputation? Like he had pts, a mentality breakdown. Murder and the sports president doing executive priv LOOKS GUILTY BAD. No one much can believe Bush and all those who like fragging. I’m not registering Republican EVER again. Alot of people are changing now so many accept murder.
Now I have not seen the autopsy report and I am not a ballistics expert BUT 3 rounds out of a M-16A2 or a M-4 in a tight group can ONLY happen 2 ways: 1) the weapon is set for single shot (normal op) and 3 shots were fired into Tillman’s head or 2) the weapon was set on burst (3 rounds), fired at extremely close range to maintain the tight group. Here’s the problem with either case being an accident: In the first scenario, three well-placed shots in a tight group can be easily achieved from 0 to 300 yards with iron sights. It just takes time and your target can’t be moving. In the second scenario, placing the weapon into burst mode is very unusual, as neither the M-16A2 nor the M-4 are machine guns. The reason for utilizing single shot as opposed to burst is simple: with one pull of the trigger in burst mode, 3 rounds are fired cyclically; unfortunately physics takes over as each round leaves the muzzle it climbs, firing each round higher than the last. As such, the military is trained to use single shot mode to conserve ammunition as well as maintain a high level of accuracy. The burst mode would be used in a final protective fire i.e., your position is being overrun or your machine gunner is dead and your platoon needs to maintain its superior firepower while engaged. As a former member of our military, the handling of Pat Tillman’s death by the military and Bush administration makes me physically sick. To think how the Tillman family has been put through HELL over this. Shame on the United States. Tillman’s officers in his command should be put to death for the perversion that has taken place. It is hard for me to believe NO ONE in his chain of command had the courage and integrity to stand up and make this right!!
in defense of Tillman:
Tillman Comrade Recalls Final Moments via Newsvine.com
A tragedy (friendly fire) about a heroic sacrifice (giving up a well paying career for country) has been turned into a grassy knoll, magic bullet conspiracy.
;-(
Pat Tillman was murdered. The US forces who generally are assumed to be responsible for pulling the trigger were not the perpetrators – that’s why the ballistics don’t jibe. The M-16s and M-4s that regular grunts carry, at 50 yrds (the range the guy with Tillman swears the firendly fire was coming from) wouldn’t likely inflict those kinds of wounds under the best of circumstances, let alone in the conditions described by the eyewitnesses.
However, that same soldier – and everyone else interviewed – claims there were snipers assigned to the mission. No one was able to provide their names – they were not a normal part of the unit, apparently – but all eyewitnesses said they took up positions farther away than 50yrds. Because of the distance, no one can swear that the snipers did or did not fire into the melee, however they were carrying the kinds of weapons that could inflict those wounds found in Tillman’s head – as far out as 200yrds, maybe more. Since we know that the Taliban definitely were not responsible, that it was friendly fire, the only logical conclusion to make – based on the autopsy report of his wounds alone – is that Tillman was sniped by US forces.
The question is why. I believe it was done to make him a martyr – someone the country would rally around even more tightly, ala 9/11. He was a celebrity/soldier and that was reason enough to choose him. The fact that he also may have had enough brains to realize that the Iraq War was an illegal mistake might have had some influence on the timing, depending on how many people knew of those opinions and how high up that info went. However I assure you that had Tillman been a hardcore supporter of the Iraq invasion, he would have been off-ed anyway. He was a good looking ex-footballer that the country had taken in to it’s collective heart. What better way to get that country on board a a brand new war with shaky premises, than to tug their heartstrings some more by celebrating a fallen citizen-soldier hero?
To the little Master of the Universe types we have in government now, such a plan would have been eminently logical from a political standpoint. Plus, they – with no real military experience of their own – probably figured the catchall ‘fog of war’ would obscure the details enough to easily get away with it. Unfortunately for them, they were as wrong on both those counts in the long run as they have been on just about everything else.
Why do you think the administration won’t let Congress see ANY internal memos regarding their conversations on Tillman the man or his death? If it was just general comments along the line of “Poor Tillman – but what a lucky break for us!”, do you think they would be willing to cause a Constitutional crisis over it? Their approval numbers are so far in the toilet that a revelation like that would mean almost nothing. No, this is about people covering up a crime that would only result in their ALL going to jail if it ever got out.
Trust me – it’s just that fucked up. That poor man was designated a pawn from the day he announced his plans to leave the NFL for the USArmy. It was simply a matter of the boardplayers deciding when the best time would be to take him out of the game, for maximum publicity effect.
The sonofabitch never had a chance.