Banaz Mahmod
Reuters – London – July 19, 2007:
A Kurdish woman was brutally raped, stamped on and strangled by members of her family and their friends in an “honor killing” carried out at her London home because she had fallen in love with the wrong man.
Banaz Mahmod, 20, was subjected to the 2-1/2 hour ordeal before she was garroted with a bootlace. Her body was stuffed into a suitcase and taken about 100 miles to Birmingham where it was buried in the back garden of a house.
Her badly decomposed body was found in April 2006, three months after the killing.
Last month a jury found her father Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari Mahmod, 51, guilty of murder after a three-month trial. Their associate Mohamad Hama, 30, had earlier admitted killing her.
They were sentenced to life in prison, today.
http://tinyurl.com/yu2z52
She may have wanted to convert from Islam which carries the death penalty under Islamic law. While tolerance and respect of other beliefs are part of Islam leaving Islam is not tolerated at all and death is justified – which is terrible to us.
This may help to explain how Islamic extremists are able to whip up suicide bombers in a fight to preserve Islam. They see the west as a threat by influencing Muslims to leave Islam.
In a way no different than the Spanish Inquisition (which nobody expects) Confess, Confess…he must be made of stronger stuff….get the comfy chair!
Cheers
#2 The big difference is that the Spanish Inquisition and what the Muslims are doing is about 500 years. To compare the two is really quite the attack on the Muslims. You are basically saying they are as stupid as christens were half a century ago.
#3 You are basically saying they are as stupid as christens were half a century ago. I think that that was his point and I agree with it, and think it is very true from a religious standpoint.
[Duplicate post. – ed.]
Only another pointed reminder that when you believe in irrational things, any irrational act can be justified.
3. “You are basically saying they are as stupid as christens were half a century ago.”
I think you meant half a millennium ago. And yes, I’d have to agree that they are.
I don’t know that I would have used the word “stupid”. I’ve know some Muslims who are very intelligent people. But culturally, and theologically, they are cavemen compared to modern Christians.
#6
Are not the (some, but many) modern Christians the ones that are wanting creation taught in schools? Therefore “modern Christians” is a contradiction in terms, is it not?
So who are the religious cavemen then?
Confess! Confess! Get the stuffing up one end…!
Cheers
Since even noted professionals in the mental sciences cannot agree fully on what, exactly, intelligence is, we have to let such statements as “I’ve known some [followers of religion X] who are very intelligent people” pass.
But really it’s not so. Not very intelligent; say rather, somewhat intelligent, well-educated, proficient in their profession, well-spoken, &c, &c… But among very intelligent people, religious belief – and especially in traditional organized religions – is virtually nonexistent. The very people who apply the principles of logic in their daily work, scientists, are the same people who most affirmatively reject religious illogic.
The correlation isn’t +1.0, religion-to-IQ, but it’s very high, certainly above, say, 0.85. If we define intelligence as the ability to reason accurately and deeply – and that is definitely the major factor – people who do reason exceptionally well, it should be obvious, do not accept irrational propositions, particularly in things that range from, at best, being totally unsupported by evidence, to those that are completely contradicted by all evidence.
Bottom line; intelligence = rationality and religious belief is the antithesis of rationality. So, fundamentalist religion goes as strongly with stupidity as atheism and agnosticism do with genius. Those of course are the polar extremes, and there’re a lot of variations in between – but that’s the way it works.
Why more BS about demonizing Muslims?
You guys carrying water for Neoconservatives now?
Just did a Google search for Pastors that murdered their wives.
There seems to be tons of Pastors, in the US, that have murdered their wives.
Much more that the “Honor” killings that I hear about.
Don’t you think that there are sociopaths in every religious group?
Salaam alaikum JPV!
#9:
I’m sorry, the result of you logic is completely incorrect:
“Bottom line; intelligence = rationality and religious belief is the antithesis of rationality. So, fundamentalist religion goes as strongly with stupidity as atheism and agnosticism do with genius.”
There are highly intelligent individuals that are Christian or Muslim. They may not be employed in the fields of of science, but rather in the fields of Philosophy, Medicine and other are as that may not deal with directly with the study of “creation verses evolution.”
People like Francis A. Schaeffer (philosopher) , Ravi Zacharias (apologist) or Michael J. Behe (micro-biologist) are all believers of a major religion. None of the men mentioned above are stupid and all believe in a higher power.
Please do not be so quick to judge a person that believes in God as stupid. I don’t spend my time thinking that anyone that does not believe the same way I do is stupid. LOL, I may think that they are wrong, but not stupid.
#9, Lauren, see below, maybe this old comment and the two by pj that follow are relevant:
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=12674#comment-714540
Bobbo, if I dared, I would ask whether you think this “brutally rape then honor kill” thing is merely wrong, or should be illegal.
Still reeling from your boundless energy in discussing this issue in the dog-fighting thread, I won’t ask it. I won’t even think it. Forget I ever mentioned it.
#11 You stated “#7 when I start seeing “modern christians” killing others because their kids are not being taught creationism, I’ll agree with you.”
Wasn’t there a threat just recently about that?
Please don’t ignore Abortion Clinics bombed and Doctors murdered…they were not Muslims… who was that now…Hmmm, guy on a cross, all powerful, oh yeah – Dubya!
So do you agree now as you said you would?
Also “Dead Wrong” – Pun? …meaning when I am dead I am will see that I was wrong about this? If that is all that needs to be said GEE I can say that to you as well.
That was easy…
Gawrsh Micky this religon stuff aint so hard to understand after all – He-yuk, He-yuk, He yuk
#12 These are notable exception. I have been searching for the study done on the correlation between religiosity and intelligence but I can’t find it, for now.
Experience, though it is a self-serving thing, tells me that Lauren’s statement is true. Among the very intelligent women and men in the Mensa activities I attended, I can recall none who was religious.
Many nonreligious men and women attend religious services or, otherwise, identify themselves as belonging to a religious sect. This may be skewing perceptions.
Speaking for myself, and my intelligence is more and more in doubt as the years go by, I tasted the fruits of many religions and their denominations. The only place that took me was right back where I started. I can still stand the services of those sects, such as the UUs, who try, with every act, to cover up their sordid, anti-intellectual, past.
TIHZ:
“modern christians” killing others because their kids are not being taught creationism”
“Wasn’t there a threat just recently about that?”
No there wasn’t. There’s never been one.
Oh and TIHZ, Salaam alaikum.
>>I have been searching for the study done on the correlation
>>between religiosity and intelligence but I can’t find it, for now.
http://tinyurl.com/22f3xe
I guess all those “Mensa activities [you] attended” didn’t give you a leg up with Google, huh? ;-P
#20, Mr. Mustard, your cited site and my cited site (comment # 13) seem to correlate fairly well. Maybe the answer is in plain sight. Interesting graph about GDP vs. religiosity, but that implies that education is a large factor. I’m not certain of that correlation — most IQ tests aren’t based on level of education. It’s possible to certify a genius at age 13, long before education is complete. You might find this article interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
Perhaps the GDP vs. religiosity graph is more a result of poorer nations’ cultures rather than education. Thanks for the link.
#21 – Yes Mr Ray, I found the article cited in your citation quite interesting when I went to the site. Quite informative, as are many of the sites you cite.
Also of some interest in the original site cited was mention of the “outlier”, (United States) where IQs are high, GDP is high, but the importance of religion is also high. Not sure what that means, but it’s interesting.
I’m not throwing my lot in with the Jesus-bashers here who equate spirituality with ignorance, stupidity, greed, envy, and overall moral turpitude. Sure there are a lot of people who have used their “god” for personal gain, some nookie with male prostitutes, ethnic cleansing, and a panoply of evil deeds. That doesn’t mean the underlying concept is evil. To steal a line from George and Ira Gershwin, I personally find it comforting to think that there is something out there “to watch over me”. Call me a dreamer. I’m not the only one. And some of us even have IQs that are pushing the upper end of double digits!
I am confused about the raping part… I mean, I can kinda get my head around why someone may want to kill someone, even a family member, for the sake of honour…. I am not saying I agree with it, but I can kinda understand from an anthropological sense why one may do that, but what’s up with the torture and rape thing? Isn’t that a bit much? Certainly something like a Halal cut of the throat or an old fashioned .22 to the head would be enough…
As for the ‘does all religion suck’, ‘are religious people thicky-thicky-thickos?’ debate, and ‘who is a better profit: Jesus, Mohamed or Richard Dawkin’ maybe what we could do is instead of all paraphrasing what we have all already said over and over again again, why don’t we just link to the last time we said it…. or failing, that maybe we could do a chart or something at the bottom of each page listing all the faults of the Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Dawkinists, and other religious groups then we could just point to that….
Look on the bright side, at least it won’t be another Muslim procreating. I would have died of embarrassment just by having that name.
#17 Milo
Er… sorry to disagree but the news of the threat was posted right here on this blog on the 18th
“Radical Christian sends bomb threats to Colorado University professors for teaching evolution, US media ignores it!”
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?m=20070718
Salaam alaikum
#22
Ho Kay got it thanks – I see that now.
By the way only if the pizza has anchovies are you allowed to do that. 😉
Cheers
#24
YOU have been neutered – right?
If not I am sure we would all gladly pitch in and take care of the expense for you.
Cheers
Thanx, BR, I somehow missed that one…
Mustardo – The underlying concept is not necessarily evil, just irrational. But it’s basically still all of a piece. Rational thought results in correct determinations and thereby to correct actions. Correct actions eliminate evil at the source. You cannot be completely rational and do evil, except in ‘mad scientist’ movies.
Ben Waymark – You continue to obstinately lump rationality in with religion. You also conveniently sidestep addressing the issue when you are shown to be wrong.
One mo’ time: science is not a belief system, like religion. It is a proof system. And proof is the #1 thing that is completely absent from religion.
Facts and nonsense are different things. Different religions are simply different forms of nonsense. Science is the replacement of nonsense with reality, not a competing system of more nonsense.
But I apologize; please continue with your “I may not be smart but I’m right and the entire world of scientific thought is wrong” schtick. You set a fine example of the sort of egocentric idiocy that fuels religion’s defiance and rejection of facts and reality. “Millions of people who know far more than me are all wrong – because I think so.”
Oh, yeah, great reasoning skills on display there, alright.
#13 – Crazydave
“People like Francis A. Schaeffer (philosopher) , Ravi Zacharias (apologist) or Michael J. Behe (micro-biologist) are all believers of a major religion. None of the men mentioned above are stupid and all believe in a higher power.”
In fact, they ARE all stupid. You are simply someone easily impressed by the big words and big concepts they spew. Behe, in particular, is a special fool, being one of the leading lights of the evolution-denial school of idiocy.
Here’s a little clue for you; education, and the ability to sound – to the ignorant and gullible – like you know what you’re talking about, those have little to do with being intelligent. It’s called pseudo-intellectualism.
28 “Lauren the Ghoti”:
My apologies for side stepping the issue. Your rational belief in science is completely justified and correct, unlike all religions or any other philosophy. The rationality of science never fails and is always objective. Anyone who doesn’t believe in science is a fool and infidel. Personally, I reckon we should first educate them to see the truth as we see it, and if that doesn’t work, we will kill all the superstitious believing scum and thus rid the world of all war and possibly most hunger and want, surely that will the only solution, indeed, the final solution, to all our problems. That would also be the most rational thing to do. Science is indeed nothing at all like religion.
#2 – – Now, death to those who want to convert from Islam==is that fairly viewed as an extreme position or mainstream position in the Muslim religion? Is there a Koran quote to put this into scholarly play?
#6–This is just more evidence and example that Christians have lost their way? If you have the ultimate truth in mind, and you think that truth involves converting/not tolerating non-believers, then not to attack others is hypocrisy. We non-believers may desire such rot at the core compromise with political reality, but that smacks at the heart of what truth oriented religions are all about.
#9–Now do a search on how many pastors rape their daughter for marrying outside their church? That might be the relevant apples to apples comparison?
#12—Evidently, you don’t understand what a correlation means?
Still, because the studies referenced at #13 are in accord with my own values, I tend to discount them and wait for “more evidence.” Those with high IQ love to over estimate its importance. Lots of work done in the area of “Emotional Intelligence” and some 10-12 other types of Intelligence are studied as well. I don’t recall if there is a “religious intelligence” as it does seem oxymoronic.
#14—dont try to bait me like some rabid dog! I see a big difference when talking about people, versus talking about animals. Call me a specieist? No, the minority view here would be to evaluate the situation thru the filter of religious rights and family rights. In form, the arguments can be made and will win or lose depending on what you consider the highest value—religion, family, or individual. I champion the individual im most cases, as I do here.
#21—I think the USA being an outlier shows the variable of culture at work==and maybe an inability to measure the “average” level of actual education, ie–not corresponding to years in school if the schools are not very good. But I have always been dismayed at the numbers of people recognizably more intelligent than myself who are nonetheless religious. Most of them I have talked to though really start with some religion and then modify it to fit their sensibilities, so maybe its not as bad as I think? We are social as well as thinking creatures, and that dual nature has its consequences.
#23–I don’t get the rape and torture either, but it would be consistent with a general misogyny present in various forms in these male figurehead relgions. Lauren does a better job of identifying your obvious defect, but I gotta add that Dawkins is not a prophet in any sense of the word much less in the sense you attempt. I can imagine a world in which SCIENCE brings all of mankind together. I can’t do the same with religion. If true, what does that tell us – – -beyond the obvious?
Why am I asleep during the better threads??? Who can I blame rather than myself or chance?
29–Your attempt at sarcasm is a hoot. Its only religion that wants to kill people who disagree. Way to embrace the bear trap. Fool.
[somewhat off topic]
#21, Mr. Mustard, there are times when one can view the Universe live with the Mark I Mod 0 eyeball through a medium aperture scope and one can’t help but wonder where it all came from. Like I said, I’m not religious, but the solitude and grandeur is at times amazing and overwhelming. Just to be able to investigate and contribute to discovery is pretty cool.
From #28, Ben Waymark, “The rationality of science never fails and is always objective.”
Obviously since I’m a scientist [infidel], I cannot possibly be objective about this subject, so I’m not going to even try.
#27, Lauren, since that was addressed to you, I leave the comment to your capable typing fingers. I’ll be disappointed if you don’t give it your best shot, as I know you can. Good luck. Sun’s up, scope’s down, I give.
For those who like informative pictures of the universe, here’s one with enough links to actually learn something — Dawn of the Galaxies:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040929.html