bobbo says:

I think that is a pretty good definition of capitalism—screw one group of people to benefit another group of people, all to the greater injury of the GOUSA!!!

The privileged class is favored in many and varied ways–eg–all help wanted ads should state the complete benefit package and salary range. Not to do so is Employer Based Fraud from the get go.

Now tell me about all the worker protection legislation that is in place. Smoke and mirrors to lull you to sleep.

mxpwr03 says:

These companies should not have to go through this process in the first place, this is just wasted economic activity. Allow the companies to hire foreign workers without all this obstacles, and the wealth of this country will increase. U.S. workers in these specific sectors will either have to compete for a lower wage, or another form of employment, but these foreign workers will be able to secure a job, and a lifestyle, that will be leaps and bounds better than what they had before.

Oh and #1 & #2, don’t forget this Rule-
#211 Ferengi Rule of Acquisition – Employees are the rungs on the ladder to success, don’t hesitate to step on them.

Jess Hurchist says:

Didn’t someone say ‘The capitalists will sell us the rope we hang them with’ or somesuch

AaronW says:

No wonder I’m having a tough time putting my MIS degree to use. Jeez this makes me sick.

bobbo says:

#4–Actually, the wealth does DECREASE.

Paying the workers less, initially keeps the nations worth “the same” with it being concentrated to a smaller capital privileged class of citizens. But with that concentration, the majority of other laboring class has less money. Now, the money in both groups will “circulate” but the larger poorer class has less money so there is less circulation. Unfortuneatley, trickle down economics doesn’t work, and the concentrated wealth of the privileged few also does not circulate as much. Result–over time, net worth of GOUSA declines.

The Ferengi’s are an avaricious lot, and as a result, a bit dull.

Matt F says:

It’s rather ironic that such behavior has led me to abandon engineering and become an attorney. But its really the fact that our public education system does not teach our citizens to put their country first and their profit motive second that has led to a situation where such drones are available and willing to screw their fellow citizens. It’s not that foriegn engineers are bad people, because they are not, its the principle of putting money before country, and the consequent effect that such behavior will have in the long run. Has anyone checked the college engineering enrollement numbers lately? They stink. It’s a direct result of importing cheap talent. How long can the U.S. continue to maintain economic strength if it continues along the current vector? One wonders.

BertDawg says:

#11 – Lauren I agree with your post absolutely and completely; have any viable solutions in mind?

BubbaRay says:

#4, mxpwr03, don’t forget these Rules of Acquisition:

#3 — Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.

#141 — Only fools pay retail.

ArianeB says:

There is no shortage of tech workers, its a scam to hire cheaper foreign workers.

Here’s a solution: make H1B visas cost employers $10,000 a year each. Maybe they will work a little harder to hire American to avoid the fees.

There is one undeniable fact: Tech worker salaries have not kept up with inflation for the last six years. If there is a “shortage” then simple economic principles should push wages higher, not lower.

mxpwr03 says:

#9 – I use that Ferengi Rule mostly as a extreme position to stir the pot.

#10 – How do you support that wealth has decreased?
This is from The Journal of Economic History; an article by Angus Maddison called “A Comparison of Levels of GDP Per Capita in Developed and Developing Countries, 1700-1980.”
He measures wealth as “levels of real domestic product at a factor cost per head of population” where (time) – (value) |
1820 – 276 | 1870 – 567 | 1913 – 1,344 | 1950 – 2,384 | 1965 – 3,229 | 1980 – 4,295. Throughout this historical time period immigration has always been a factor, and instead of Indians and the Chinese labour, it was the Polish, Irish, Dutch, Germans, Italians or Jews and Catholics.
#11-Oh and corporations have also been around during this unprecedented rise in wealth.

#10, #12, #13 – All three of you brought up that immigration of low skilled labour causes harm to domestic workers. Noble Prize winning Robert Lucas once said in podcast (here http://tinyurl.com/2cf328) in response to this labour supply shift, “Well I’m sure that’s true. But look, we ought to encourage people not to drop out of school. I mean, we can’t set up our economy to…what is good about the U.S. economy is that it offers people opportunity to move up in the world… We could use better education in poor neighborhoods.” Setting up barriers to keep competitive labour out won’t help with long-run economic growth, increasing human capital will. And yet, that point seems completely absent from your arguments. Instead one wants to tax the rich more, one wants to put the “country before profit,” and the other desires that employers should be forced to hire “approved” workers and discriminate against other “unapproved” workers.

#22 – I live by Rule #3, and for this story, never pay more for equally skilled domestic workers, when there is cheaper foreign labour.

Everyone here is tech oriented or so it seems, so I would recommended this podcast (http://tinyurl.com/2aug2eO) where Dan Pink, a contributing editor for Wired Magazine, lays out his thoughts on how America’s future wealth lay not with the “left side of the brain,” but instead with the right side of the brain. The left side is more logical, mathematical, linear, while the right side is more artistic, more capable of understanding context not text, and synthesizing obscure ideas. For an example, Apple should be allowed to employee as many “left side” oriented foreign workers who are skilled at engineering skills for the iPhone. Let the H1B visas fly! While at the same time, the U.S. workers should focus on Liberal Arts training to design the UI, the marketing, everything that gives Apple products the hard to define, “cool” aura that makes the company so profitable.

ArianeB says:

#26 Policies of the current regime has cost America the lead in technology and also the lead economically to Europe.

Dan Pink is an idiot if he thinks the economy can sustain itself completely on marketing without technology. Us left brained see right through todays marketing crap, and we are not buying it.

You on the other hand seem to be buying it hook line and sinker.

Mike T says:

Okay — since I am actually going through the perm process for a guy that works for me, let me throw my two cents in here on this. Maybe I can get you all to see another side of this, but given the comments that I have read on here so far, I doubt it.

I have a guy that went to school in the USA and was hired by my company (me really) when he was fresh out of school. He has an MSEE and he is NOT doing IT work — he is doing real design on real product that many folks use every day. He has been here about two years so far and has done a bang up job. Right now, he has an H1-B and that will allow him to work here for four more years before he has to reapply for that or move on to Perm — the eventual path to full citizenship.

To start this process, we had to work with our lawyers to get his job posted. It’s in the local papers, it’s on Monster.com, and it is in the employment offices of schools throughout our entire state. I get about three resume per week and the lawyers have told me how to find ways to disqualify them — the things that they told me were exactly what you heard on this clip.

So, I have to call some of these folks and interview them on the phone . Doing this gives them some type of hope that they might get this job. However, there is no chance that they are going to get this job — I know that from the start. I am simply doing what the Feds require me to do so a guy that has had a job for 2 or 3 years and is doing a great job at it can keep it. So, I wait about a week and then I send then a rejection letter. We all know full well that there are many folks out there that can do the same work that this guy is doing. But I have to find some way to say otherwise.

It kills me to call and talk to these folks cause I am setting them up for disappointment. I have to reject them and I can’t tell them why. In fact, you can even tell them that this is for a PERM job because according to the Department of Labor — the job is open.

During this entire time, I have not received even ONE resume from a US citizen. Not one. I don’t have to consider any non citizens cause that defeats the purpose of the PERM process. However, I find this to be quite a telling situation. My minimum requirement is a Masters in Engineering for this job. A Bachelors could do it, but I want to make sure I find a way to limit my pool even more. Sadly, there are not that many US students in the graduate programs. They want to get out or go get MBAs or do something else — most don’t have the desire to press on with more rigorous studies.

It’s a bogus game that we have to play with the government. There is no reason that this guy should have to compete for a job that he already has. He paid tuition for school himself, he pays taxes – a lot of them cause he makes almost as much as I do. That’s right — we don’t pay below market rate. In fact, we can’t. If we have someone from another country working for us, we can get in trouble for paying below market wage. And I have to post public documentation that everyone in the organization can see to prove that he is getting a fair wage and that we are not undercutting anyone else.

Further, this guy has a good life here and is contribution to the local economy. We as a whole would be stupid NOT to keep him.

However, there is some chance for change coming. Now, the only reason that we employers have to do this is because a person has to be sponsored for citizenship. They are looking at law changes that would allow a person to get a greencard on their own merits (ie. did they go to school here, how did they do, how long have they worked here, do they have family here, etc.) and then once they get it, they can compete for a job just like anyone else – but once they get it they don’t have to worry about losing if due to stupid immigration laws.

There is a lot of ranting and raving and xenophobic things being said out here on the comments. Sadly, many of you have no idea what you are talking about. I used to think a lot like most of you — just figured foreigners only came over there to take our jobs. However, after being in a supervisor role and working side by side some others that have come here to work, that’s changed. Many are good friends of mine and I have seen some get screwed royally after they have done everything this country has asked them to do and followed every law and process required. Some have had to leave the country and then come back and take a leave from their jobs to do so.

These folks aren’t illegals that are coming over here to pick apples for $1 and hour and send it out of the country. These are folks that are as good if not better at their jobs than many of the US citizens we have to pull from. They are neighbors, they are members of society and eventually many of them will be productive citizens that can vote.