Kokesh at Alberto Gonzales Hearing
Yeah, sure. Wearing his uniform at a protest is the only reason they want to dishonorably discharge him.
Marine Corps Wants America’s Favorite Marine To Shut Up!
Iraq veteran and honorably discharged Marine Sgt. Adam Kokesh has been the Pentagon’s biggest public relations nightmare this year, because he’s some kind of magical Cindy Sheehan — people actually like him!
And while right-wingers had no problem mocking the mother of a soldier killed in Iraq, they have a tougher time mocking an actual living Marine male veteran who actually fought in the war they just write about on their blogs.
[..]
The funeral stunt earned the protesters a coveted “political protest” arrest — apparently it’s now illegal to protest anything for political reasons — and your favorite Marine was also charged with “Unlawful Assembly — Loud and Boisterous,” despite the fact that he was silent during the performance.
Here’s something from Kokesh’s personal blog about his forcing a hearing — the last thing the Marines want is more publicity on all this — on his pending dishonorable discharge:
In Unprecedented Prosecution Former Marine Adam Kokesh Rejects Plea Bargain
The implications of this hearing may be far reaching, as the prosecution of a member of the inactive reserves under these circumstances is unprecedented. At stake is the right of freedom of speech for the hundreds of thousands of members of the Inactive Ready Reserve, as well as the nation’s right to get the unbiased truth out of Iraq. Last week, the prosecuting attorney, Captain Sibert, offered Kokesh a general discharge. To accept this would be to allow the Marines to say that members of the IRR do not have freedom of speech, so naturally, he declined.
UPDATE: Turns out that there was a second Marine at the protest who isn’t being disciplined. AND the VFW is backing Kokesh. What a difference from Vietnam! (Thanks SN for finding this)
related link:
Iraqi Veterans Against the War
UPDATE 2: The military panel recommended Kokesh receive “a nonpunitive discharge” ruling his actions were a theatrical performance to which the rules about military dress don’t apply. Ah, they took the easy way out.
He is a member of the Marine Corps on inactive reserve. Folks who sign up for the militar waive certain freedoms until teir term of service is completed. He knew that going in and now he is choosing to leave that fact out because he knows the general public won’t be aware of it.
I’m not judging his actions in any way, in fact I haven’t even ready WHY he did what he did. I just think it’s a little disingenuous of him to leave out that important fact. He shouldn’t rail against the politicians and behave like them at the same time. A lie is a lie no matter where it comes from.
[Spam – ed.]
“The first Senator’s son that is sent to Iraq … the war would be over quickly” … Virginia Senator Webb’s son is over there now. Remember he dissed meeting Pres. Bush when he was swarn in…
@ hal No.11
Can’t have a combat experienced Marine talking against the war. He is a threat to the morale of the troops.
So the truth is a threat to the morale of the troops. Criticizing a war we are soldiers are not properly cared for is wrong. What really will impact negatively on our soldiers is for the government not to give them what they need..which has happened and comments like “you go to war with the army you have” I guess by your logic the only way to keep the soldiers motivated is by feeding them lies.
He is a threat to the war. What if all the other Marines felt the same way? What if other soldiers listened to him and his friends?
A threat to the war…please don’t be ridiculous. Did Kokesh go awol or did he not do his full tour? No , the way he felt did not impact what he did. I have no doubt our soldiers would continue fighting. Isn’t freedom of speech and the right to disagree with the gov’t what they are supposedly fighting for.
Where would we be then? Who would fight? Who would go to war? Where would the warriors come from?
From the same place Kokesh and all other who have volunteered for service come from. If there is a real threat I am sure our boys and girls will rise to the occasion.
[Message deleted – See Comment Guidelines. – ed.]
The solution to the problem is easy. All he has to say is “Oh, by the way; I’m gay.” and he can’t be re-enlisted can he?
The world is full of sour grapes quisling jerkoffs, and this traitor is one of them. Hang his treasonous ass.
The solution to the problem is easy. All he has to say is “Oh, by the way; I’m gay.” and he can’t be re-enlisted can he?
Comment by Chris
He can’t be forceably re enlisted, as we a have a voluntary military. Thisis all btavo sierra by the cindy
sheehan crowd of turncoats.
[Message deleted – See Comment Guidelines. – ed.]
I’m not stating my opinion on this guy. In, out.. should be dishonorably discharged or should be left alone.
My comment is on the folks leaving all of these idiotic, ridiculous comments– on BOTH SIDES of the fence.
Get a grip. Insulting each other, insisting those that have different views from you are stupid, just being blatantly rude and so extremely aggressive towards each other is foolish. Your comments speak volumes about who you are.. and you don’t seem to be much at all.
This article is inaccurate in saying re-enlistment. Most contracts don’t end at 4 or 5 years. There is usually an 8 year overall military obligation. 4 or 5 years of active duty and 3 or 4 years of inactive duty also known as the Individual Ready Reserve. In either case you must still comply with the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I do agree that the UCMJ restricts many rights in the constitution, but being charged while in the IRR is rare.
If this guy is a threat to morale, if him speaking his mind is a threat to the war, then maybe it’s not a war we should be fighting in the first place. People always say we don’t have a way out, but that’s an absolute falsehood. If we wanted to leave, we could do so at any time. If we wanted to stabilize the region, we could do so at any time. We don’t want the region to be stable, and we don’t want to leave. The whole point of this exercise was to divide and conquer. We made sure they were all fighting each other and that we were in control. We are building the largest embassy in the world in baghdad, we have 4(?) permanent military bases there. Bush is talking about staying there for 50 years! Meanwhile, we are writing legislation for the free Iraqi government to pass giving our oil companies control of their oil. Stop accepting the lies! This war wasn’t necessary and it’s still not necessary, unless of course you’re haliburton… btw Geoff, I find it amusing that you would choose to insult everyone here, because they’re insulting each other! Well, the insults don’t matter anyway, when I see a post that makes me think, I don’t disregard it because the next guy calls the poster an idiot. Call them whatever you want, but you’re just background noise until you can tell me WHY they’re an idiot.
To Mr. Fusion: Re your comment #1, where you wrote: “I want to see the right wing nut Republican neo-con chicken hawk bigots justify this one.” let me respond.
I consider myself a right-winger, but not a neo-con chicken hawk bigot. Just call me a paleo-conservative. II consider the neo-cons nothing but part of the greedy, treasonous ilitary/industrial/corporate complex that Eisenhower warned us about. Many of the so-called Christian right wingers may rightly be called Sheeple, because they unquestionly and blindly “follow the leader” to their and our destruction.
This war is immoral and I’m sick and tired of our your people being sacrificed for corporate greed. As you stated, it cannot be justified and NO ONEcan honestly justify it. VOTE FOR DR. RON PAUL IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY.
Anyone should be arrested that tries to protest at a funeral. I mean come one! Only true scum would go to a funeral to protest and shout, while family members are greiving.
This article is on Digg, and I think the Right is having their way there.
Well as someone might have said-the people who serve don’t have all the rights a normal citizen does. We are not allowed to use our military duties to further our political agenda. We are also not allowed to attend political meetings-in uniform. These laws are the easiest ways the government can control descent among the military. Just like we are never allowed to speak badly about our officiers and commander in chief. This all sucks and what they are doing to this marine sucks. Yes we do sign the dotted line-but most of us signed with our own idiology of what protecting god and country mean.
“prosecution of a member of the inactive reserves under these circumstances is unprecedented. ” This is False.The armed forces applied the same regulations under the Uniform Code of Military Justice during the Vietnam conflict. In fact a former Sergeant Major of the Army was called back to duty to be convicted.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Theodore Roosevelt
#48 – Yes we do sign the dotted line-but most of us signed with our own ideology of what protecting god and country mean.
If there is a god, it doesn’t need protection. If there isn’t, it doesn’t deserve protection. But the country both needs and deserves it and those who put their lives on the line, finished their duty, and are now in private life, deserve to be able to speak in the political dialog.
I understand the military’s need to preserve the chain of command by placing certain restrictions on active service member’s ability to speak, but rules about uniforms seem like enough to me.
While I don’t buy the idea that military persons have more right than non-military persons to speak, I do think that if a guy has volunteered to take a bullet for me, I’m damn well gonna extend him the courtesy of listening to whatever he has to say about it.
Some good quotes in this contentious thread. Here are a few more:
On invading Iraq: “It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks… I doubt six months.”
— Donald Rumsfeld, Mar. 7, 2003
“My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. … I think it will go relatively quickly, … (in) weeks rather than months.”
–VP Dick Cheney, March 16, 2003, on NBC’s Meet the Press
“The world will be at peace when the last king is strangled with the guts of the last priest.”
–Mikhail Bakunin, the “father of anarchism,” shortly before the czar banished him to Siberia
“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face. It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
– Bush at 2005 Oval Office strategy meeting on renewing the unPatriot Act [reported http://tinyurl.com/9d8fw – never denied]
#52, Geezer, Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” Bush screamed back. “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
I’ve talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution “a goddamned piece of paper.”
This is so disturbing on so many levels, I just don’t know how to react.
Thanks for the link.
As a true conservative, I am outraged by the Military’s treatment of one of our Vets. I may not agree with his message but he fought for our freedom of speech. He deserves to be able to speak his mind. This will be the kind of negative press that the Military recruiters do not need.
to #45– it was a “mock” funeral. there was no body, or name etc.
they were not protesting a funeral, they were protesting “with” a funeral. I think the bit was that it was a funeral for the next serviceman to die for the war they dont like etc. they were silent, and arrested for “loud and boisterous protest”
I enjoyed his little “protest” at the hearing , with the running count of “i do not recall”. no twisting. no overly dramatic speeches or propaganda- just let the evidence speak for you.
If your title and article are accurate then this violates the First (in multiple different ways), Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments:
1st: Free Speech
1st: Freedom of Assembly
1st: Freedom of Expression
5th: Due Process (you have a property interest in your honorable discharge status and the benefits that go with it)
8th: Excessive Punishment
14th: Due Process – Arbitrary and Capricous
14th: Due Process – Incorporation of 1st and 5th and 8th Amendments
I think there is probably something missing in this article
I think this guy is pushing evry button he can to expose the problems he has seen. I also thing that he knows the consequences and is moving ahead anyway. Something else to think about, when the military slips out of civilian control the results are never good and often they are down right armegeddon, why do you think the phrase “Crossing the rubicon has survived so long”. All that being said this guy strikes me as someone who understands all that and is willing to pay the price to be heard which to me validates his message even more. I am not so sure that I could do the same knowing I could wait and say my piece with out the backlash. Dude is a stud.
52…TJGeezer….I stopped being a Bush supporter a very long time ago. But, I can’t even begin to imagine ANY President making a statement like that in a meeting of that many people, especially with people present that he considers not-loyal.
Your link, to a site with a piece by some unknown author, on a page of pieces by unknown authors is, as our own Mr. Fusion would say (if it was pro-Bush), dubious at best. I hate asking for links, I try to take what people say on faith, that it’s true or they believe it is, but on something this serious, I’m asking for some form of independent verification of this.
Corp. Kokesh should have the right to express his opinion. When he’s discharged from duty on June 18th, 2007. Until then, he must obey the UCMJ, just like any other person in the military, active or inactive. I got confirmation today from my Uncle, who is active duty and an officer, that Kokesh, like others signed on for an 8 year tour of duty. That he must obey the regulations, though it’s not very often used against anyone in the IRR. My Uncle said that what screwed the pooch for this guy is his own words on his own blog. But my Uncle feels they will just give him a General Discharge or leave it Honorable and allow his time to expire, because of the bad publicity.
What I have a problem with is this, if he’s so anti-war, why did he apply for re-deployment to Iraq? And why did his anti-war activities start with/in 3 weeks of being told he couldn’t go back due to his previous actions (sneaking weapons back to the states, and some other insubordination issues)…..something doesn’t mesh here.
Unless Kokesh allows his records to be released, we will never know why he was busted to Corp. from Sargent….we do know part of the reason, the weapons thing, but apparently there was more.
Anyway, it appears more and more to be one of those he said, they said things, and people will believe the side that fits their political belief’s.
KANSAS CITY, Mo. – A military panel has recommended a general discharge for an Iraq war veteran who wore his uniform during a war protest and later responded with an obscenity to a superior who told him he might have violated military rules.
http://tinyurl.com/2ca4uo
#58, joshua,
I’m going to surprise you and agree with the general theme of your post. I wondered too why he would be volunteering for active duty and only after being turned down start protesting the war. There is probably more to this then he is letting on. Even if he is just a trouble maker, shit disturber, or whatever, to me, he has remained inside the law. This could all be just sour grapes on his part.
The big legal question that arises is how much the First Amendment applies to someone on IRR status. I read nothing in the Constitution that removes a citizen’s right to speak after being discharged from the military. And he was honorably discharged.
I disagree with your earlier post that he is beholden to an officer. If he has not been called up then an officer can hold no power over him, and that includes language. It might have been rude, but being rude is not a crime. There can be no military crime when the military has discharged him.
The other thing I disagree with is because he removed all insignia from his uniform, he was not in uniform. It only becomes a uniform when it is identifiable, until then it is just cloth. If he had shown up on parade dressed like that then he surely would have been busted. You can’t have it both ways.
I think his best bet would be to get a Federal Court injunction against the Marine Corp on First Amendment grounds. Otherwise, they will just bankrupt him with the nit picky bullcrap like this and endless hearings.
#60…Mr. Fusion….My Uncle said that he was Honorably Discharged from *active* duty, but has not been seperated from duty until his full 8 year term is up. That he is still considered *military* until that last 2 years is done(in his case in like15 days), and is still bound by chain of command rules….when the officer told him that he may be investigated for violating UCMJ…..he apparently told the officer to stuff it, only a bit more colorfully….he would have been fine doing that after June 18th….but until then, the officer is still an officer and he is still an enlisted man, just not active duty. My Uncle said that a lot of guys/girls think when they are discharged from *active* duty, they are discharged, period. But, apparently not.
Also, the uniform he was wearing, while without insignia, was his actual uniform, issued by the military to him, and since he was still military, he couldn’t wear it to the rally…..you confused??….I sure am……lol
Anyway, my Uncle called this morning to tell me to check out the news….he was right, they gave him what amounts to a General Discharge and washed their hands of him.
The military is the military….the majority of them are really patriots and care about their country I think…..they can’t be happy about whats going on in this country anymore than the rest of us, but they can’t say it. The decision to do what they did came down so fast and hard, it had to be a ranking officer that just decided to end it all before the politicians could get involved and screw it up more.
I am an 8 year Army and National Gaurd veteran and I fully support Adam Kokesh.