“Verschärfte Vernehmung” – TheAtlantic.com: a republican blogger has written an article making a direct comparison with the torture techniques used by the Nazi regime and the ones currently being used by the Bush administration for its war on terror.
The phrase “Verschärfte Vernehmung” is German for “enhanced interrogation”. It’s a phrase that appears to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods are indistinguishable from those described as “enhanced interrogation techniques” by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo (click on picture at the top of this post), moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their “enhanced interrogation techniques” would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.
I would like to warn you that the link to the complete story includes a picture of a person being put in a bag with ice packs thrown on top of him, which might be upsetting to some of our readers. Now this story is not to indicate that the current government is a mirror of the Nazi regime, but the precedent being set by this type of behaviour will end up biting the U.S. in the @$$ someday.
You fail to see my point Ben, terrorists are out there cutting the heads off of live people and out parading and celebrating it while we sit here and bicker over whether people we have caught fighting the United States on the terrorists side should be held captive. You people fail to see we are at war. Those people choose to give up their freedom when they saught to commit crimes against America. I guess your one that feels every criminal held in prison should be let go then also??
I can see it happening already when the next terrorist attack against the United States happens, you will all blame Bush. Why didnt Bush prevent this? Why didnt Bush know?? I wonder why.
You attack my feelings on how my money is used. Is there anything wrong with myself wanting the money i earned in my hands??
I have no problem with immgrants wanting a new start and an oppurtunity. But when they break our laws, they have no place here.
I would like to see you come up with a way to combat terrorism without infringing on anyone’s rights, you cant without security screenings, ID cards, ect. If you let these people walk freely amoung you, how are you going to know who they are or what they are doing??
Without the patriot act, you would have to get a warrant and let the terrorists know you are tracking them, hmmm kind of eliminates the element of suprise. If they know their phones are tapped, do you really think they are going to spout over the airwaves about their attacks and such??? No.
Where did i ever say “screw everybody but me”???
I support liberating Iraq and Afghanistan. Those people enjoy much more freedom now then they ever did before the United States came in. Is Iraq a violent mess right now?? Yes, but the people there are free now and its up to them to decide their future, you cannot deny that they are more free now then they were under Saddam. So how am i being selfish there?? You people all want to run from Iraq and let the insurgants take control, how is that fair to the Iraqi people??
# 64. Bush is preventing stem cell research for religious reasons. So, I think he is referring to any disease that might be cured by research in that field. I don’t know that they profit from it, other than by creating issues around which they can generate fear, hatred, anger, etc. The things that usually cause people to turn to religion. In a fearful and hateful place, there are bound to be lots of churches preaching Jeremiads to make sense of all the fear and hate. And they will be raking in the dough. It’s a broad argument, but generally true in my experience. Yes, there are many exceptions, but those churches and places of worship are exceptions in my experience.
Mr. Fusion, concerning your use of libraries: Sorry, I thought everyone was using the library less since the internet is such a great source for information. Obviously, people still use libraries. Your other points on government being able to access personal information also warrants concern.
# 67. I actually don’t think i said anything about the taxes thing, Dan. It’s not an issue I really care about that much. As someone who lives in border town, I probably should. But it’s not my fight. Not a biggie for me. Thanks for responding to what I didn’t say anyway. Beyond that, I’m not engaging with you, Dan. It’s pointless. You don’t listen. You’re too busy telling me how I fail to see your point, which isn’t true. What’s in it for me to spend my time on someone who won’t listen to anyone else?
And you’re right: you did not literally say screw everybody else. It was a metaphor for your attitude. I didn’t realize that was a subtlety that I had to explain. I guess I gave you too much credit. And just so you don’t have to look it up, a metaphor is a comparison using non-literal language. Bored now.
I’m sorry but when you said i was being selfish i thought you were referring to my tax arguement. Either way i responded to how i am not selfish on taxes nor am i selfish with my rights. I showed you how i am not acting in a manner of “screw everybody but me” attitude, but all you do is attack me for appearently not listening to you because i oppose what you are saying, sorry Ben, just using a little freedom of speech here, something you lefties forgot when you decided to hang Don Imus.
You must be pretty rich to not care about taxes, but for the 99% of the rest of us, we do.
I find it hard to listen to you when all you do is attack me personally instead of the points i am making. All you are saying is how i apparently dont listen, kind of hard to listen what you are saying when all you say is i dont listen.
Ben, thank you for explaining that. There seems to be a code around here that helps the initiated finish each other’s sentences. As for your critique of religion (all religions?, Christian fundamentalism?) I think you are probably right and wrong at the same time. I like to treat religious people like any other group and not pre-judge them.
To your earlier point as to why some people(me) object to the Nazi Germany comparison…because it doesn’t do justice to either our country’s current situation or the people who actually suffered under Nazi repression. And to me it is an offense, that stiffens my resolve and makes me not want to hear what the person stating this has to say next. So assuming you want to persuade me with your argument why would you want to do that?
Nazis drove VWs.
Dan, you’re joking,right?Please say you’re joking so I can sleep better at night…
Where is the original German text?
It would be easy enough to post it for all to see and determine whether or not this is just another hack job.
A leader with no compassion, no integrity, nor any sense of these. A contrived reason to go to war and waste young American lives so that now several thousand have come home in boxes. Those alive will forever have a difficult time living any kind of normal life. Halliburton and others have gained billions and billions in contracts to provide products and services to wage this war. These very clever people have figured out a way to drain the US treasury.
Tom, you’ve done a good job at getting other people to explain their positions. Could you kindly now offer the same courtesy by being more specific when explaining your position as it relates to the article mentioned in this entry? I can understand how people get upset by unfair comparisons of the Bush Administration to Nazi Germany. However, regarding interrogation techniques, I don’t believe that this specific comparison is wholly unfair. If they use the same techniques, same justification, how is that an unfair comparison? I’m not trying to be obnoxious here, I would just like clarification on a point of view.
eminent domain, new bankruptcy rule, patriot act being able to arrest any citizen and charge them with terrorism and withholding a fair trial, phone tapping, email reading, no fly list if you criticize bush, outing CIA agents for revenge, secret military government, torture, controlling the entire mainstream media, 30% of the media is government propaganda, not denying the fact it’s allowable to torture little children, firing of US attornys half way during a term, appointing incompetent inept friends into government positions, stealing votes, threating the US citizen with fear of terrorism, bankrupting the United States, not caring where Usama Bin Laden is, no bid contracts to military industrial buddy companies, having stock in those military industrial companies while serving in office, and what else….
oh yeah, being the mastermind behind 9/11. 9/11 was an inside job, wake up you sucker fools.
#66, Tom
I asked where you posted the freedoms or rights that have expanded. Your post doesn’t give any examples. Sure you might use the internet. That is a technological advancement, not a right. Courts have ruled that people may be denied use or access to computers and not everyone has ready access to a computer, so there is no right there.
From #14, I have never witnessed so much freedom of speech in my life. …If you have an idea, an argument, a complaint..you have never had an opportunity like you do now to protest, or agree, or be funny
Just plain wrong. I have always had the opportunity to protest, bring the matter to a politician’s attention, write a pamphlet, or even start my own newspaper. In fact, until recently, I could even go on a TV or radio station to offer a rebuttal to any editorial they broadcast; can’t do that today.
So what rights have expanded since 1994 when Republicans took control of Congress. Note I’m doubling the time frame of Bushes tenure in office.
Tom, quick now. You are being called to put up or shut up.
#77-79: I tried to get Tom to back up his statements much earlier, he has so far refused. I have given up on debating him; his mindset is no different in than Dan in #58, 68, & 72. Tom just happens to be more eloquent in his expression of his opinion; and his ability to distract others into explaining their positions ad naseum while avoiding explaining his is quite good.
(I also gave up Tom after OhForTheLoveOf’s brilliant rant utterly destroyed Tom’s position. Then again, OFTLO tends to have that effect on people. . .)
Previous post (#81) should be a reply to #77-80; apparently a post got approved somewhere while I was typing. . .
So many problems with these comments and so little time…
To Dan:
Yes, reporters are being executed, violence is spreading…but did you ever wonder why?
I’ve traveled fairly extensively in the Middle East, and though I have always been a Catholic and a pacifist, I found myself siding with the extremists. The problem is, we didn’t start denying rights to these people after September 11th: imperialism, sanctions, economic manipulation through legitimate organizations like the World Bank, and Cold War proxy wars tore apart Middle Eastern nations and backed their citizens into a corner.
Terrorists are humans with a breaking point just like anyone else. Having experienced enough suffering and degregation, they reacted violently. The U.S. reacting violently in response and continually dehumanizing prisioners and innocent citizens alike has futher marginalized the desperate voices from the region, ensuring more violence to come.
If we are ever to come to a peaceful conclusion for this sad chapter of human history, it will require understanding, not a perpetuation of the ‘us v. them’ mentality that characterizes your posts.
To Tom:
When I last returned from Israel, I was strip searched, questioned extensively, and have even had some items (film, cds, etc.) confiscated. This process took about 6 hours. When I asked why, I was told that for reasons of National Security no one could tell me.
Yes, we can say whatever we please on the internet and travel around the world, but the government is not directly responsible for these freedoms, and is clearly not above punishing those who choose to enact them.
#83, Jacobak Terrorists are humans with a breaking point just like anyone else. Having experienced enough suffering and degregation, they reacted violently.
That is just absurd, Terrorists taking the life of other humans for religious (or any other) beliefs can never be justified. Good Grief !!
FREEDOMS have always been oppressed by the US military and corporate interests.
How about the US govt overthrowing democratically elected governments around the world such as Iran and Iraq and putting dictators in their place. Read some real US history.
freedom for the US citizens, but no freedom for 3rd world countries.
whistle blowers such as John Perkins in his book “confessions of an economic hitman” and ex navy Chalmers johnson “blowback” explains it in detail.
To Jill, good point. I reacted not to the article but to the comparison you mention, which I stated was ridiculous and a bad cliche that I would like to see ended. Others defended the comparison. I further went on to say that rather than having freedoms taken away during my lifetime spent in the US, I have seen a dramatic gain in freedom, for me, for you, for black people, for working women, for foreigners, for gay people, for handicapped people, etc. Believe it or not, I thought these points were obvious, but people disagreed, I think honestly so, and a healthy discussion followed.
My position on torture is I am against it. My position on this article is I would question it’s source and it’s validity. Gunter in post #76 brings up an interesting point.
To Jacobak, that sounds like a horrible experience. Mark, in an earlier post said something similar. If people are being detained, searched without cause unnecessarily or otherwise intimidated at the US border, then that is wrong and a loss of freedom.
Now I like to play tennis and often bring my tennis bag with me when I travel. And the bag looks like a odd shaped knapsack that I wear it on my back. If I am on a short trip I put all my stuff in the bag and bring the bag on board. After 9/11 I was pulled aside, singled out and given the wand treatment every time I flew with the tennis bag. I always assumed it was because the bag made me look suspicious, or maybe I had bad luck. I never thought my rights were being taken away and actually I was glad to cooperate. But this is much less severe situation than you and Mark are describing.
To #11 – Tom.
– Freedom of speech? Freedom to associate freely and travel?
Are you aware that there are people in our secret CIA prisons for being friends and family members of suspects? or that if you show up at a Bush public appearance with an anti-Bush sign you will be put on the no-fly list ?
Eric
Mr. Fusion, thanks for taking the time to look deeper into this long thread and to take my argument seriously. You asked me and I told you, if you don’t agree, fine. But please don’t tell me to “put up or shut up” when we are both using our freedom of speech, it makes you look – hypocritical. I have taken time to respond to nearly every comment, of course I will respond again. Yes, you could have been a pamphleteer back in Jefferson’s time, or could have opened a newspaper 40 years ago. But my point is since 1994 the internet and other technology have given you greater opportunity. And people are using the opportunity more, not less. Dissenting voices have more listener ship, not less. Just look at the popularity of Michael Moore, even Dvorak. Yes in 1994 these guys had a voice, but nothing like they do today and I would argue technology has a lot to do with it. This entire discussion would never had been possible in 1994. We might have read this article in the paper. I would have responded with a letter the following week. You would have responded the week after that and no one would know what we were talking about (not that they do now.)
If you want to say, well that has nothing to do with rights in the constitution, fine. The effect is more freedom, more dissent, more opportunity, less negative repercussion for dissenters… and more bellyachers!
Aside from the obvious posts full of empty sentiments that are not researched or thought about at all, this is a refreshing thing to read. I am slightly happier to see that there are still people in America who realize that “freedom of speech” isn’t just “freedom to rationalize all of my fears without justifying them” but can be used to actually increase one’s knowledge and hence form one’s own opinions. Kudos, and remember: the rest of the world is watching.
Eric, if the CIA has a secret prison, how do you know who’s in it? And how do you know why they are in the secret CIA run prison? And if you know all this stuff, just how “secret” is this prison? Just curious. As far as the no fly list being full of Bush protesters, I was unaware of that. If true, that doesn’t sound good to me.
I think your all a bunch of tin foil hat wearing nut jobs. Keep up the good work. With out people like you the rest of us would have no one to laugh at.
#88, Eric:
Those are quite chilling assertions that you made… could you please provide the source(s) of that information?
@jacobak
I’m glad to see someone gets the point. The US has been screwing with the middle east for decades. The Sep 11 bombings came as no surprise in this country.
I live in New Zealand – I lived in Urbana-Champagne (Illinios) for a year, before the Sep 11 bombings. Even then, used as I was to a relatively functional and liberal country, the US was shocking to me. Everything, from the food in Wendy’s to the news on TV was sanitized, watered-down junk. US citizens lived in blissful ignorance of their country’s *own history*. Most of them weren’t aware of the Vietnam War, of the Cold War, of sanctions against Cuba…nothing.
I, my sister and various friends were dismissed as “liberal hippies” or “nutcases” when we mention non-extreme, well documented historical facts. That’s right – US citizens regarded basic analysis of facts as “extreme”.
Basically everywhere I looked, the country was rotten. Meaningless news, brainless TV, terrible food, ingrained bigotry and racism, corrupt politics, abusive foreign-policy, merciless welfare system discriminatory laws, etc. And everyone there lived in a kind of daze – utterly failing to notice the slowly failing system around them, and engaged in a kind of perpetual game of “keep up with the neighbours”.
I am never going back. I’d probably be arrested for some arbitrary crime.
Godwin’s Law
#89, Tom
You are still talking about opportunity, not rights.
I can buy a 2007 car that get superior gas mileage, more comfort, and is more durable then a comparable 1994 model.
My 2007 TV is bigger and gets more channels than the 1994 model.
Heck, even my 2007 model wife is bigger then the 1994 model.
But none of those technological achievements have increased our RIGHTS to be free from oppressive government.
So I ask you again, WHAT EXPANDED RIGHTS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST 13 YEARS? Oh, wait, WAIT WAIT, I have one, Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. Yup !!! That is a right that didn’t exist before.
#95, GW, Godwin’s law granted, if you’ll grant me Benford’s law of controversy.