“Verschärfte Vernehmung” – TheAtlantic.com: a republican blogger has written an article making a direct comparison with the torture techniques used by the Nazi regime and the ones currently being used by the Bush administration for its war on terror.
The phrase “Verschärfte Vernehmung” is German for “enhanced interrogation”. It’s a phrase that appears to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods are indistinguishable from those described as “enhanced interrogation techniques” by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo (click on picture at the top of this post), moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their “enhanced interrogation techniques” would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.
I would like to warn you that the link to the complete story includes a picture of a person being put in a bag with ice packs thrown on top of him, which might be upsetting to some of our readers. Now this story is not to indicate that the current government is a mirror of the Nazi regime, but the precedent being set by this type of behaviour will end up biting the U.S. in the @$$ someday.
Tom: So you argue that if I haven’t had any rights taken away from me nor have experienced the effect of them personally, I shouldn’t be worried about other people losing their rights?
And yes, I did provide some examples about warrants and secret courts. My right to privacy is in jeopardy because the government says it should be able to look at my library records to fight terrorism. And I can’t open bank accounts now without full background checks in the name of fighting terror.
Mark, thank you for you sincere response.
My only objection is your categorization of me. I am an American. If anyone compares my country to Nazi Germany, I defend. That’s all. From the moment that comparison is made, I disagree. Dvorak just does it to get hits, but those who commonly use this rhetorical tool should stop. It is a loser. But they are free to do so…and lose.
Now I also stated that we are more free now than we were in the distant and even near past. And on the front of civil and social rights this is obviously true. So too on the technological front where people can communicate and express themselves in a hundred ways now, where once only CBS News and Walter Cronkite could. Travel too has opened up, not just (obviously behind what used to be the Iron Curtain) but to distant far off places one would only see in movies before, now people routinely vacation in places like Bali and Budapest. I doubt there is any sincere disagreement here. But there is the big Brother aspect that you have clearly stated. Everyone should be on guard, I agree with you. Concerning the National ID, how about just the SS # that really has already become the defacto National ID, no?
#35 Since any use of the patriot act is classified so deep, we will never know about it, how could we know if our life has been negatively affected by the act, or abuses of government? How could we know if our phone has been tapped illegally, or if our library records have been combed? How can we know what exactly they are using this enormous amount of information about our lives for.
In fascist Germany, the Nazi used propaganda and fear to control the people, much the same as the neo Conservative right. Timid people went along to get along. If more people were to speak out against the fascists, just maybe they would have been able to derail the disaster that awaited. Its people who speak out before its too late that we would like to get to, including yourself. I agree it may be a bit of an exagerration to say we are headed to forced labor camps, total police state, etc.., But if will wake people up, then so be it. I love the internet and all the freedom of information it brings to us, I also believe that governments see this as a threat and something they need to get under their control. Like they have with mainstream media, and dont think they havent.
Natefrog, Mark has given some pretty strong evidence that his freedoms have eroded. He had an incident many years ago and now everytime he goes to the airport he gets stripped searched. That’s not good. I still don’t think it makes the US, Nazi Germany and that has been my main objection this entire thread.
As for the library records, we’ve all been around the merry-go-round on that one. We know the government has been using library records for drug cases for years before the Patriot Act. And with the internet, who goes to the library anyway? And knowing who is wiring money over $10k is not a bad idea to stop the funding of terror, but I agree it is a limitation to freedom. And of course you can worry about anything you want to worry about-this isn’t Nazi Germany.
#23 – Tom, I’m not used to being accused of thoughtfulness, so I’m not sure how I should react to that 🙂
I’m 40… Around here, I’m in the middle. Are we freer now that in the 50s and 70s as you say… I suppose it depends on who you are. Am I freer? No. Am I repressed or oppressed? Honestly, not as such, not personally, at least, not so much so that I really notice.
Actually. I’m pretty strapped by the dark side a what we like to call a free market economy. I have a full time corporate job. I wear a tie and everything. I live alone. I live very modestly. I don’t own a TV so I pay electric, 1 cell phone bill, 1 rather low car payment, and 1 ISP bill. I’m getting killed by the costs of my company paid health care. I pay more in health care costs each month than I pay in rent.
I’m free. But if you and I are the same age, you will probably live 25 years longer than me (and I’m not making that up) because I am suffering more from poverty than from health issues. My company saves a lot of money by self-insuring and strictly controlling coverage. I think how smart and pragmatic the bosses are every time I see them leave work in their $100K cars and drive home to their million clam McMansions.
Am I a class warrior? You’re goddamn right I am. I work three times as hard as I used to and get half as much for it. I want my economic freedom back. If life for regular people gets worse, I’ll have to start figuring out how to take what I need rather than earning it. Like Jean Valjean, what choice will I have?
But we are likely talking about different kinds of freedom and different experiences, and when I say our rights are eroding, I also mean the rights of others that I have seen (through the media, that we have all seen)
Police violence against citizens “seems” to be on the rise. Police can no longer be held liable for executing warrants on the wrong homes or on the right homes that house the wrong people. NRA folks will argue that gun registration is an infringement (and obviously that predates Bush).
All these stories are reported in the major media. I’m not gonna footnote my memory. You know about the alleged drug dealing grandmother in Atlanta. It was blogged heavily here, what, about a month ago. I’m aware of high profile incidents of police killing innocent and non-threatening people (typically of color (an example of a group with apparently fewer rights than others as a result)) in Chicago, New York, Atlanta… and if you watch major headlines, you probably are too.
Yes, I can go where I want. I can travel inside the lower 48 pretty effortlessly except by plane, and I am white and my van is modest and un-rusty, so I don’t typically get hassled by the cops for driving too close to rich people. That isn’t a freedom everyone has.
Privacy. I can’t even get a telephone without having to worry that my phone records will just be handed out to whatever government agency feels like the 4th Amendment has been repealed.
I’d like to own property near the downtown and have a home there. I sure hope a private bio-tech firm doesn’t decide they want to be there too. They’ll just pay off the city council to abuse the doctrine of eminent domain and take what is mine.
Ask a small business owner if they feel like they are burdened by more regulation and red tape than ever before.
Ask a parent what happened when they sent their kid to school with a few tablets of Tylenol because the child had some discomfort from a recent dental surgery.
Often, more conservative folks will tell me about how free we all are. That’s very true for the straight an narrow who follow all the rules like a teacher’s pet. The status quo are quite free because they never want to do anything abnormal anyway.
In Indiana, a recent divorce case resulted in a judge awarding joint custody of a son to a father on the condition that the father never expose him to “non-traditional” religious activity or risk losing custody. The father was Wiccan. Here’s the rub. So was the mother, and they had no disagreements over religion or custody.
You might think the “In God We Trust” plates are no big deal, but then, you might be a Christian. I am not, and I don’t trust in God, and I don’t appreciate my money being used to promote Christianity by the state as is happening in Indiana.
Our president has effectively suspended habeas corpus and operates prisons for people who might, maybe, we don’t know, be terrorists. We seem to champion torture now. This is all for a Crusade against a fundamentalist religion, Islam, being waged by fundamentalist Christians. I see what Christians do with power. What will they do with me once they are done with the Heretics? Maybe the same thing the Muslims would do to an infidel like me?
We get talked to in short monosyllabic syllables in the voice of arrogant adults scolding children. We used to be the richest nation on Earth with the highest standard of living and absolute mobility, and we were a beacon to the world. We used to lead the free world. Now we are just disrespected thugs and we appear to be preparing to treat our own citizens they way we’ve began treating others.
Am I a free adult, free to make adult decisions and do adult things? If you think so, then lets share a toast. We can do that. But what if my vice of choice were marijuana, rather than the status quo choice of alcohol?
Show me where off the grid is…
Am I free? Pretty much, within reason, as long as I color inside the lines. But I can see the writing on the walls and I’d rather fight it now, than later when those comparisons to Nazi Germany seem much more obvious to everyone.
But how free are we? How many of us are afraid of the cops? How many are afraid of the government? How many feel powerless to affect change? How many feel disenfranchised, disillusioned, disaffected, and dismissed?
So… How free are we? How free are we going to be next year… a year after that… in five years… How free is fear?
Ohfortheloveof, wow. I am blown away by your response. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
OFTLO – Very nice rant. Unfortunately we’ll have to bill you for the space you used in the blog. You can just send your payment to me.
OFTHO man your life seems to suck where do you live?
#42 – OFTLO – wow… eloquent and accurate. Thanks. And for those who don’t think the constant erosion of liberty has any consequences for the populace… geeze… go back to your Will & Grace reruns. Watching the news isn’t making any impression at all.
John Mitchell, Nixon’s first AG, was right: “This country is going so far to the right you are not even going to recognise it,” He said that in 1972, I think.
the right is using fear and safety to make this a bad place to live, the left seems to enjoy paranoia and a chicken little the sky is falling philosophy I wonder what would happen if people found as many good things to live for everyday as they do the negative. I guess that would be to hard since it is always easier to tear things down than it is to build them up.
🙂
Thanks guys… I’m honestly humbled by your reaction to my post, which I didn’t realize was so long untl I finished it.
KVolk,
You know, it does seem like me life sucks. A side effect of diabetes is depression. But no matter how bad my life seems to me sometimes, there are millions more who would love nothing more than to live as well as me. When you are focused on your own trouble, its easy to miss your fortune.
But it’s life. Some days we revel in it and some days we are lucky to just cope with it. I used to be better off and I am smart and I am working on getting back to where I once was.
Without too much detail, I’ll say its an amazing lesson to learn what a few simple challenges not met well can result in. I went from a spacious hi-rise condo overlooking Lake Michigan in Chicago, with a woman I loved dearly, to being completely flat busted and holed up in a gracious friend’s spare room in Ohio in very short order, all as a result of events I honestly had no control over.
But I do have control over what I do to recover and I’m doing well and plan to be doing better. When you really see success and failure from every angle, you either get really bitter or really compassionate. I have bouts of both, but I’m pretty sure I’m permanantly a liberal now.
I believe in personal responsibility and self reliance. But I also believe in civil and social responsibility and I believe that fidelity to my fellow citizens of the world is a mandate we must all adopt. We need to stop asking, “What can I do to have a better life?” and start asking, “What can I do so we all have an opportunity for a better life?”
Working toward ending a culture of violence and conspicuous consumption is a good step forward. If done right, it’s probably also a good step toward ensuring we continue to enjoy and expand our liberties and extend this philosophy of liberty to truly oppressed corners of the Earth.
This rare flower power moment will not soon be repeated 🙂
#42, OFTLO,
Ask a small business owner if they feel like they are burdened by more regulation and red tape than ever before.
I, too am concerned by recent events and have even written my congressman (Sam Johnson) and Senator (Kay Hutchison). But as a part-time one man show (consultant, retired or unemployed depending on who’s asking) the requirements for documentation today are unreal. I feel like I’m working for the govt. just filling out forms and tax returns. I’ve run my own biz for almost 30 years now, and the paperwork burden is unreal.
At least as an astronomer or pilot, I don’t have to wear a tie. EDS was a long time ago. 🙂
#48, This rare flower power moment will not soon be repeated
Comment by OhForTheLoveOf
Your latest post made it in before my #49, so I didn’t have a chance to read it. I also have a rags to riches to rags to riches to rags bunch of stories, and doctors and lawyers have screwed me out of just about everything. But, hey, I realized I still have (some of) my family and a few living friends (absolutely the most important things in life) and I can still walk and fly airplanes IFR and research astronomy and cosmology (pays the bills) and occasionally go fishin’.
Depression is a debilitating disease, but just bantering around with the crowd here helps a bunch (if you ignore the insults and negative junk). Good luck and keep up the insightful and wacky posts!!
hmm… #19, Tom, states that the shouting to disrupt speakers has only been from the left. I imagine he must’ve been sleeping when the mercenary Repugnicans were shipped into Miami and “disrupted” (terrorist act?) the duly appointed vote recount which would’ve put us onto a (“Family Guy”?) different and highly-unlikely-worse present. Those guys pretended to be outraged citizens at the time, but it turned out they were all being paid, and many of hem went on to positions in the Bush (& frere) admins. Kind of makes ~everything~ the left has done since seem pretty tame, eh?
Well Tom, let me see.
Ten years ago I could drive to Canada to visit relatives, show my driver’s license and be allowed across the border, both ways. Need passports now.
I could buy some airplane tickets and fly to anywhere in the US, no problem. Today, I have to show all my ID and hope that I’m not on some list the Government won’t publish.
I could get a job with the Federal Government and not worry about being non-religious or an independent. Today, I really should be a born again Jebus freak and a member of the Republican party.
I didn’t have to worry that the police could just break down my door and shoot with no repercussions, other then one of those nasty civil lawsuits. Today, well, they can. And do.
It used to be that I could count on my physician making a correct diagnosis. Today, we have the Republican leadership making a medical diagnosis based upon a few seconds of video and passing a law based on the result.
I used to check out books from the library. Now, I don’t know if the library has been forced to reveal what books I borrowed but can’t tell.
My telephone records were confidential, by law. Today, the Government just asks the telephone company to hand it over, no warrant needed.
I used to telephone friends. Today I don’t know if the NSA is listening to what I discuss with my brother.
I could always stand proud when with foreigners and tell them what a great justice system we have here in the US. Today I am embarrassed that we rounded up thousands, of mostly Muslims, and held them on fraudulent “witness warrants”. Then we rounded up hundreds more and held them for years without access to legal aid, without charge, and without any rights. All the time in confinement they have been tortured.
Tom, this is a short list. To me, however, it doesn’t appear that our “rights” are expanding.
the methods, as repugnant as they are, are still effective… i guess we havent changed that much.
I don’t usually take it upon myself to get involved in any kind of discussion like this, but I can’t let it go.
Of course we still have our freedoms, for them to be abruptly removed would cause all of america to take up arms in protest of the government. However, you can tell that the media is being carefully controlled in such a way that people are distracted from what is really important. Every time you turn on the tv you are force fed loads and loads of bs from so called reputable news sources, who find more time to talk about sports starts and american idol than they do about political affairs. And if you don’t believe me, just think about the number of important news stories about the current administration that you can find and read about on reputable news sites on the internet that are completely blacked out and not covered on any US news station.
So what are you missing out on? How about NATIONAL SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE/NSPD 51 and HOMELAND SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE/HSPD-20, which give ol GW dictator like powers in the event of a vaguely defined national castastrophe? Or about the recent contract negotiations the administration has had with the former engineering subsidiary of Haliburton, commissioning them to build “camps” to safeguard citizens in the event of a national catastrophe?
They are just simply waiting for the right moment to finish eroding everything this country was built on, and I find myself hoping more and more that we will make it to the 2008 elections without a hitch.
It is truly amazing to see a piece describing how our torture techniques are almost identical to nazi torture techniques, and then to see people leaving comments basically saying “shut up, we’re not EXACTLY like the nazi’s!” It doesn’t really matter whether we are exactly like them or not, the fact that we are using the same tactics should shock and disgust people of all political persuasions. Torture is not a democrat or republican issue, and it makes me sick to see people even attempt to equivocate away torture because they think that their political party is doing it, and getting attacked for it, so they must defend it. Is there nothing in this world that you will stand up for, just on the basis of morality, without checking first to see what side your precious party is on?
Tom, re specifics.
Remember back to 2004. Because of the hoopla Bush had kicked up about the war you couldn’t have a rational conversation saying it was a bad idea. War protesters were “unpatriotic”. Dinner parties were nightmares.
Now more specifics. Because of Bush most the world thinks Americans are evil bastards. Outsiders confused the government with the people, and from their perspective they are right. And this makes me less safe.
More specifics. I have to wait sometimes hours for a “sideshow of security” at airports because of silly rules that add no security. Shoe scanners? C’mon this has nothing to do with it.
I can’t email with security as I know it’ll be picked up by the gvt. Not fake, true.
I can’t have some types of research go forward on diseases that I may die of because Bush gets has to pay off the religious lobbies that got him into power.
OK, want some more? I got thrown out of the country for 3 months on a stupid visa issue because a newly empowered border guard used the situation to have some power games.
Specific and personal enough?
#38 – There was no comparison on America to Nazi Germany. The blogger that Dvorak cites, compares the torture techniques used in Nazi Germany to those currently used by America. No mention was made of the leadership, politics, economy, etc. As a matter of fact, the blogger makes explicit mention of this. The techniques of both the Germans and Americans is known, so a direct comparison can be made. Is anyone disputing the torture by Americans?
Much of the debate here seems (self-) centered on rights as Americans not on whether the torture is justified or even useful. If I were the enenmy, I would have already trained anyone with valuable information in torture resistance techniques making any gathered “intelligence” just a wild goose chase. Anyone without any information and willing to sacrifice his pride will lie just to make it end.
If you are of the camp that says useful information can be extracted with torture, are you willing to embrace it as means of preserving society and accept the consequences quid pro quo torture of American troops? To accept that you no have moral high ground? Remember you can’t claim, “They attacked us first” with respect to Iraq. They had no NBCs (nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons – the potential lethality of a single device of each differs by so many orders of magnitude it is absurd to call them all weapons of mass destruction), no fighting army, and no air force. Before the current war there were no al Qaeda training there. Perhaps they were a threat because the US had to seek fly-over permission from Turkey in order to bomb northern Iraq since the end of the Gulf War I which placed our ally in a tough political position with its regional allies. Just speculating, back to torture.
If you can justify torture for war can you also justify for peace? Can we kidnap and torture citizens from other countries if we suspect there may be some plot to do something to someone somewhere? What are the rules? If so, do American citizens now face being “justifiably” kidnapped and tortured? Do you have any problems with that?
What about the left and all the rights it takes away from us?? They raise taxes so much, what happened to the right i get my money that i worked for?? Why do they raise these taxes, so they can pay for more wasteful programs to help the illegal immigrants and the poor who do nothing but rely on these programs to survive, why should i have to pay for their survival?? They should work if they are able. They are illegal, so they work they do is not taxed, they put nothing into social security or medicare, but i do, how is that right??
The lefties complain how high gas prices are, do you know why?? Because for 3 decades they have fought and sucessfully made it so there have been no new oil refinaries built. They want cleaner energy, like wind turbines, do you know how many wind turbines you would need to meet energy demands?? The whole state of Massachusetts would have to be covered, and thats for todays energy needs, demand is only going up.
It makes me mad how people blindly fight for the “rights” these terrorist detainees have, hello people. they have no rights they are not citizens. These people want nothing more then to kill you, and when the government tries to protect you, all you do is whine how they are depriving people of the rights. What about my right to live, if these terrorists want to take that away from me, then the government should do anything in its power to prevent that. Who honestly cares if the government is tapping your phone lines (why would they bother in the first place??) if your doing nothing illegal there is nothing to worry about.
And with the internet, who goes to the library anyway?
That is the type of red flag that tells me you don’t fully appreciate the freedoms upon which this country was created.
Who goes to the Library????
When you are willing to give up the rights of any group for which you don’t consider yourself a member, you demonstrate a distinct lack of understanding.
To Mr. Fusion, Good point about not being able to get into Canada without a passport. That is a bummer. But a lot of your other points just are not true. Since when do you need to be a Republican to get a Federal job? I don’t think we have a single Republican working at my Post office. Your doctor can’t give you a proper diagnosis because Bush won’t let him? Are you serious? I was asking for and received stories of how people had lost freedoms since…Bush’s presidency or the Patriot Act. Everyone here seems real afraid to go to the library now. It’s a long thread, but if you have time I stated how our rights have actually expanded as the country has gotten older. I’m sure you disagree, but check out what I said, if you have a moment, instead of just assuming you know my position.
Patrick, silly overstated point. For whatever reason our government was able to check library records on persons suspected of drug crimes long before the Patriot Act. Where were you then complaining? I have never advocated giving away any of my rights, or yours. I objected to the comparison of the United States to Nazi Germany-and if you understood history-you should to.
As for my point about libraries and who goes to them anymore, it was a glib statement, but there is some truth to it. When was the last time you said to yourself, wow I need some information-let’s go to the library! No, you go to your computer and Google it.
a. Torture doesn’t work particularly well. Our intelligence has been wrong time and time again as a result of these methods. The same can be said for other countries who have implemented these methods. They seem to work because we have forced confessions and lots of innocent people to hang, but it’s a sham. That has been fairly well documented. Check out Amnesty International’s work if you don’t believe me.
b. I have a lot of rights. I probably haven’t been personally effected very much. Does that mean I shouldn’t mind when other people are stepped on? If I have the blessing of freedom, doesn’t that mean that I should work so others should have it? Don’t I have that obligation? I guess I could be selfish like Dan and say, in effect, screw everyone except me. But I’m not like that.
c. why does everyone get so butthurt when the Germany comparison is made? Don’t you think Germans were sitting around having this exact same conversation about their country during Hitler’s rise to power? “well, it’s not like we’re X, Y, or Z. That could never happen here.” Bull crap. When the people are not vigilant to protect against that happening, it will happen. That is the course of empire, and history has proven it with every single superpower EVER. We are not an exception, and when we cease to be an exceptional people we will go the way of every other empire.
d. People like Dan really, really terrify me. I won’t engage with him; he’s a lost cause and I don’t have an interest in converting someone so willfully retarded. Tom I would carry on a dialogue with, because it’s possible. I may disagree with him, but he listens respectfully and tries to engage in useful dialogue. I appreciate that. But our world will end in the hands of the little men and women like Dan who are willing to sacrifice everyone else for the sake of extending their own selfish little lives for a few days or weeks or years. Yes, I will whine when our government deprives people, anyone, of their human rights. These rights are not contingent on what someone has done or citizenship in the United States. I am not saying terrorists should walk free, but I AM saying that torture demeans us all and destroys the fragile fabric of our humanity. I AM saying that secret prisons and the suspension of ANYONE’S habeus corpus erodes the rights of us all. I AM saying that Osama bin Laden should not be tortured if he is caught. Do I want to have high tea with him? No. Do I want him to pay for violating the human rights of others? Yes. But that can be accomplished without walking all over the rights of us all. We can have justice in accordance with the moral high ground, standing for something larger than him rather than stooping to his level. We have done it in the past, and we can do it in the future too. Unless we succumb to the fear that would destroy us all.
#60, Tom
You asked for some examples. I gave them. Maybe if you read the post you might have learned something. Geeze, some days the idiots come in droves.
Since when do you need to be a Republican to get a Federal job?
US Attorneys were fired and replaced by Republican party members. In case you missed Monica Goodling’s testimony before the House Justice Committee.
Your doctor can’t give you a proper diagnosis because Bush won’t let him? Are you serious?
I wrote It used to be that I could count on my physician making a correct diagnosis. Today, we have the Republican leadership making a medical diagnosis based upon a few seconds of video and passing a law based on the result.
Or have you missed Senator Dr. Bill Frist examining a few seconds of Terry Schiavo video before pronouncing she was NOT brain damaged and then urging his colleages to vote for a bill over ruling the Florida State Court. Shoot, Bush flew back from Crawford Texas in the night just to sign it.
I stated how our rights have actually expanded as the country has gotten older.
WHERE ??? Sorry, but I missed the post where you showed how our rights have expanded. So please, could you give just a few samples that have happened since 1994 when the Republicans took over Congress.
Colin, I’m confused. You were thrown out of the country by an over empowered border guard over a visa issue. And you were accused of being unpatriotic at dinner parties for objecting to the war in Iraq. But if you need a visa to be in the US your not a citizen, right? So how can you be unpatriotic for objecting to the war if you are from a different country? That doesn’t make sense. Also, at which airport did you encounter this long delay. I made six separate flights to major US cities this May and encountered no waits at security. And how does any of this make the US like Nazi Germany?
And last which disease is Bush preventing research on? And how do religious lobbies profit from this lack of research on these diseases? That’s the craziest thing I’ve ever heard.
Mr. Fusion, I was supposed to know you were talking about Terry Schiavo when you stated you couldn’t get a proper diagnosis from your Doctor? I don’t know you short hand forgive me. Ditto for the comment about only Republicans are able to get Federal jobs, I had no idea you were talking about the fired US Attorneys.
I started making my point about the expansion of freedoms in the US around comment #14. Let me know if you like it. What a long strange trip this has been, but it filled up a rainy day for me.
# 64. Bush is preventing stem cell research for religious reasons. So, I think he is referring to any disease that might be cured by research in that field.