“Verschärfte Vernehmung” – TheAtlantic.com: a republican blogger has written an article making a direct comparison with the torture techniques used by the Nazi regime and the ones currently being used by the Bush administration for its war on terror.
The phrase “Verschärfte Vernehmung” is German for “enhanced interrogation”. It’s a phrase that appears to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods are indistinguishable from those described as “enhanced interrogation techniques” by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo (click on picture at the top of this post), moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their “enhanced interrogation techniques” would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.
I would like to warn you that the link to the complete story includes a picture of a person being put in a bag with ice packs thrown on top of him, which might be upsetting to some of our readers. Now this story is not to indicate that the current government is a mirror of the Nazi regime, but the precedent being set by this type of behaviour will end up biting the U.S. in the @$$ someday.
Well, Bush’s grandfather WAS the banker to the NAZI party… Maybe he brought back some manuals?
Thankfully it was a republican blogger who put this out.
It’s so frustrating when people dismiss anti-torture positions as “liberal” with no other arguments.
Decent treatment of other human beings is not concept which should be confined to a single political party
Looks to me that they just want their boys to learn how thrilling it was to torture dark skinned folk and get a way with it just like they did in the mid 20th century.
The Bush administration has already flip flopped on global warming and I suspect he will disavow torture before he leaves office.
These endless comparisons to Bush’s America and Hitler’s Germany are as ridiculous as they are boring. Has anyone of you ever experienced more freedom in your lives than right now? Freedom of speech? Freedom to practice religion? Freedom to associate freely and travel? Anyone of you? How about the old guys? What about you Dvorak? If you hate George Bush, well good for you. Express yourself freely. Next time you get a chance vote for the Dems, But enough with the belly aching that your rights are being stolen when they clearly are only expanding.
Tom (#11),
Expanding?!? I am no democrat but what Kool-Aid are you drinking?
#11: I do vividly recall a time in my life when I had more freedoms; it was my entire life before the (un)Patriot Act passed. . . And I can find some recent Supreme Court cases that have eroded my rights due to justices Mr. GW Shrub placed on the bench. . .
Ethanol, let me answer my own question, I have never witnessed so much freedom of speech in my life. A lot of this has been brought by technology-the internet, this blog, youtube, podcasting, skype, documentary film, cable television, satellite radio…If you have an idea, an argument, a complaint..you have never had an opportunity like you do now to protest, or agree, or be funny. This was not true in Hitler’s Germany. This is obvious and it is actually become boring to state otherwise.
#14: So what about freedom from religion? Or against unreasonable search and seizure? Or the right to land without the government seizing it for other private interests? Or the right to privacy? All of these things have suffered greatly over the past 6 years thanks to GW.
Natefrog, I have no interest in defending Bush. If you hate him, good for you. But you obviously have no fear of stating so and that is my point. Your freedom of speech is complete. This wasn’t true even recently here in the US. But under the maligned Bush there is no fear to practice free speech. Again this was not the case in Hitler’s Germany, which is the comparison that I think is ridiculous. Just out of curiosity tell me how the Patriot Act has robbed you of your liberty? And if you could, be specific.
… I have never witnessed so much freedom of speech in my life. A lot of this has been brought by technology-the internet …
….you have never had an opportunity like you do now to protest, or agree, or be funny. …
….Your freedom of speech is complete. This wasn’t true even recently here in the US. But under the maligned Bush there is no fear to practice free speech. …
Mr. Bush, you complete me!
#16: Hey, you were the one that said our rights are only “clearly expanding.” You defend what you said, too. You are aware that the freedom of speech isn’t our only right?
How about this: National Security Letters, sneak and peak warrants, and secret warrants issued in secret courts which can’t be challenged. Hurray for my rights to privacy and against unreasonable searches!
Natefrog, if someone is forcing you into a religion against your will…report him to the authorities at once. But if you are objecting to someone else’s freedom of speech because it is a topic that offends you…well you can’t have it both ways my friend. You either have free speech or you don’t. One thing that has occurred under the Bush presidency that reminds one of the Nazis is the high incidence of Public Speakers being shouted down, this was a common Nazi tactic before they took control of Germany. However the people using this tactic in the US have been from the left, not the government.
Open your eyes man, at the moment we still enjoy the freedoms, but if you cant see the erosion taking place you are either ignorant, in denial or not paying attention.
#11 – Way to tow the party line Tom. More Bullshit from the right.
The lines we can draw between present day US and Nazi Germany, or Stalin’s Russia, or Mussolini’s Italy are pretty clear and are reasonable arguments to make. And since we still do remain remarkably free despite the erosion of rights, it is our duty to be vocal about it.
It’s true that we are not Nazi Germany. It’s true that we enjoy a great deal of freedom (although I’d argue that our unmentioned caste system makes some of us more free than others). It’s true too that there are many differences, protections and safeguards against tyranny, and that we could also draw parallels between the US and Churchill’s England or Ancient Rome or whatever…
And when you are rank and file right wing, I’m sure hearing a valid argument that you can’t see to agree with gets tiring… As it must if you are someone who is just too apathetic to engage in the political dialog. Also, the comparison isn’t always fair or relevant in every situation.
But you just waste your time when you make the blanket, and largely ignorant, statement that your opposition is wrong without having anything to back it up with, and then claim that everything is peachy keen when the news has daily reports demonstrating clearly that it is not.
We are not suggesting that Bush is rounding up some current scapegoat (Muslims perhaps) analogs to Jews and burning them alive in concentration camps. We are suggesting that Bush is taking steps in many policy initiatives similar to what we’ve seen in history being taken by tyrants and that the nationalistic conditions are right for us to be legitimately concerned about severe abuses of power (and in the absolutely worse case scenario, a collapse of democracy).
What’s your problem with that?
#19 – Natefrog, if someone is forcing you into a religion against your will…report him to the authorities at once.
In Indiana it is the authorities that are pushing their religion on us.
Ohfortheloveof, thank you for your thoughful response. My challenge to you and all is to state to me how YOUR rights have been lost since whenever, I could care less about Bush. Clearly you feel your rights have been taken away. Tell me how. How is your life different now then it was before Bush, or the Patriot Act, or when the Boogey man took over your home town? I can make a comparison between anything two things and there would be a connection, Abraham Lincoln and cotton candy come to mind, but what’s the point?
My blanket statement is you haven’t lost a shred of liberty, but I don’t know you, maybe you are repressed by the government. I am looking for concrete, not abstract. Nazi Germany was the high water mark for evil in the western world. I walk out my door in Bush’s “evil ” America and I see smiling, hard working people going about their business. Where’s the beef?
Where’s the beef?
Comment by Tom
Between your ears?
J/P=?
I am guessing that all you guys are pretty young. That’s why I would love it the mighty Dvorak would step up and tell me how he has less freedom now then when he was young. Believe me,he has and we have 10 times more freedom now then say in 1950 or even 1970. Try being black in 1950, or being a woman at the work place in 1970, or being gay back in 1985. Hell, I used to have to where a bathing cap at the school pool and now no one does! I am asking for specifics, because there are no specifics. You guys are giving none because there are none. You hear that the RIAA is preventing you from downloading songs on your Zune and you think your rights are being violated. If you care about Liberty, Human Rights, the environment…sure you can whine about it, that’s your right. But why not do something about it?
Tom, have you not been paying attention to supreme court rulings these last few years?
Matthew, I have payed attention to some supreme court rulings and others I have not payed attention to. I have read none of the decisions. I get them in 30 second bites via the media. How have these ruling affected you? Be specific. I keep asking the same thing because if you actually were denied your freedoms you would be very specific, it would stand out in your mind. And I probably would be on your side. At the same time throughout the world many people are denied basic rights and no one here seems all that concerned.
25. You would be guessing wrong. I know for a fact OFTLO is early 40’s (sorry man), myself, early 50’s a veteran, well travelled and nowhere as naive as yourself.
Tom, how about the right to get on a plane without showing ID?
Tom, your argument is edging closer and closer to “if you aren’t doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear.” And we all know the fallacies inherent to that line of reasoning. . .
Tom, I’m sorry, I don’t have time to hold your hand on this one. I can lead you in the right direction, but if you’ve not been paying attention that’s your problem. i.e. Your ignorance is not my problem.
How about the fourth amendment, a recent ruling pertains directly to illegal warrants. The most recent and blatantly criminal ruling is about time limitations when an employer steals from you.
That should get you started, go look those up and report back here for more support.
To Mike N, thanks you are the first person here who gave me an example of how his rights have changed for the worse since…whenever. But while I’m sure people have gotten onto commercial flights without providing an id, that’s been standard procedure for a long time before the Patriot Act, but to some degree you are right.
To Matthew per #31…How silly. Which recent ruling? What is the case name? How has it affected you personally? We are a fair amount of people here. Can’t someone come up with a single abuse by this government that some of you feel is like Nazi Germany? Heck, even I can do that. How lame!
To Mark per #25. Sorry if I suggested you are younger than you actually are. That doesn’t happen to me too often anymore, I wish it did. You think I am naive because I don’t think today’s United States is anything like Nazi Germany? How does that make me naive? And as a veteran why would you say something like that?
And since you are older, do you think you have less freedoms today or say in the 1970? Can you give me an example?
Natefrog, you stated:
#11: I do vividly recall a time in my life when I had more freedoms; it was my entire life before the (un)Patriot Act passed. . . And I can find some recent Supreme Court cases that have eroded my rights due to justices Mr. GW Shrub placed on the bench. . .
I ask you again, can you give just one example how YOUR life has been negatively effected by the Patriot Act, or a recent supreme court ruling. And how has that event made the US seem even remotely like Nazi Germany?
I know that a law has been passed that you will have to be cleared by Homeland Security in order to obtain employment. I know that sitting on my motorcycle at a stoplight last night, and looking up at the light and noticing a camera staring back at me and wondering what the person at the other end of that camera is thinking. I know that every time I go through Customs to go to and from my home in the Caribbean, I was profiled and have to be strip searched (this as a result of getting pissy at the ticket counter, years ago because I decided not to board my connecting flight, and chose to drive instead), I have personally witnessed the heavy handedness and a change in attitude of the police (and as an ex Federal Law enforcement officer, I know abuse of power when I spot it). I know that I have to go through forced roadblocks in NM and Colorado, present my papers, have a flashlight shined in my face with suspicion, this NEVER happened to me in the 1970’s. I also know that the mechanism to control is being put quietly into place, because people like yourself dont see a problem with it, it will make us “safer”. Well, it wont. It makes it all too easy for the power in control to abuse. Just wait until you get your National ID card, with a magnetec strip that will contain much of your personal information. It will be great, they will tie it directly into your bank account and you can use it as a credit card too. But dont worry, your “purchases” will not be monitored, because the government wont be interested in collecting data about you. And if you purchase that carton of cigarettes, that data wont be passed on to the insurance companies. This stuff isnt science fiction, it is in your immediate future.