Once more we see an administration run on wishes instead of intelligence. Authoritarianism for the sake of power and a lack of understanding of anything else. A rejection of real knowledge for myth and desire to achieve ends that, while noble on the surface, can’t be obtained because they must be occur in the real world. Pogo was right.
Advisers Fault Harsh Methods in Interrogation
As the Bush administration completes secret new rules governing interrogations, a group of experts advising the intelligence agencies are arguing that the harsh techniques used since the 2001 terrorist attacks are outmoded, amateurish and unreliable.
The psychologists and other specialists, commissioned by the Intelligence Science Board, make the case that more than five years after the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush administration has yet to create an elite corps of interrogators trained to glean secrets from terrorism suspects.
While billions are spent each year to upgrade satellites and other high-tech spy machinery, the experts say, interrogation methods — possibly the most important source of information on groups like Al Qaeda — are a hodgepodge that date from the 1950s, or are modeled on old Soviet practices.
Some of the study participants argue that interrogation should be restructured using lessons from many fields, including the tricks of veteran homicide detectives, the persuasive techniques of sophisticated marketing and models from American history.
Mr. Krongard even recalls receiving a proposal for help with questioning Qaeda suspects from an American dentist who said he “could create pain no human being could withstand.”
The agency rejected such ideas as ludicrous. But administration lawyers approved a list of harsh methods that have drawn widespread condemnation.
In an April lecture, Philip D. Zelikow, the former adviser to Ms. Rice, said it was a grave mistake to delegate to attorneys decisions on the moral question of how prisoners should be treated.
Mr. Zelikow, who reviewed the C.I.A. detention program as the executive director of the Sept. 11 commission, said the “cool, carefully considered, methodical, prolonged and repeated subjection of captives to physical torment, and the accompanying psychological terror, is immoral.”
And more importantly given the goal of these methods, not very effective. Just more satisfying for those wishing to cause pain to the enemy.
I’ve lived in countries that use torture and I am absolutely convinced that it hurts intelligence gathering, rather than helps it.
The reason is simple: torture creates disinformation which obscures the truth.
Okay, critics… So what are these other “better” techniques you keep talking about?
#2: Read the article.
“Better” techniques require perception, analysis, thoughtful scientific methods and, just maybe, an understanding of history and culture.
Nothing that the White House or neocons comprehend.
#2 Okay, critics… So what are these other “better” techniques you keep talking about?
Do you seriously support torture? How do you square that with being an American? (if you are) Or even just a civilized human being?
I never got the “torture is needed” idea. I love the “OMG! Nuke!” scario of:
Nuclear bomb is somewhere in the city, and a terrorist is captured. Do you torture them to save millions?
The answer is – no! If I’m a terrorist, and I know they’re looking for the nuke I hid, I’d be lying my ass off! “Oh, wait, after that water boarding, sure, it’s on 5th and main!” Then, after investigators wasted their time, I’d laugh and go “Ha! Got ya, bitch!”
You think terrorists don’t expect this? Did torture work on British captives in Saudi Arabia back in the early 1990’s accused of terrorism? Did it work on the guy who influenced bin Laden after leaving the Egyptian prisons where he was tortured? (Obviously not.) Did it even work during the Inquisition?
It. Doesn’t. Work. Being smart and looking over the evidence and other techniques do. Torture so far shows no usefulness other than making the torturer feel powerful – which maybe is what this administration needs to fill those gaps in their soul.
I am an American and I fully support torture to get information from the bastards who keep cutting the heads off our people and blowing up our service men
I dont give damn about them because they don’t give a damn about human rights at all (the whiny left crowd who keep saying if we are nice to them they will like us,) they dont like us they never will, and I don’t care if they ever do but they can respect us and fear us and if that is what it takes to stop them from killing and blowing things up thats fine with me
Such a sad story.The V.P. shows up at West Point to tell the graduates that the last protection they have as combatants is null and void.The Chicken Hawks have won for now.
#7: (Quoted, but with lots of corrections for grammar, spelling): “I don’t give a damn about them because they don’t give a damn about human rights at all. The whiny left crowd keeps saying that if we are nice to them they will like us. They don’t like us and they never will, and I don’t care if they ever do — but they can respect us and fear us and if that is what it takes to stop them from killing and blowing things up that’s fine with me.”
Aren’t you thinking exactly like the terrorist you would like to see tortured? If they torture our troops, will we “respect” them? Does killing their people and blowing stuff up stop them?
@7
I’ve said it time and time again. The people being tortured are not all terrorists.
Many of them have little to no evidence against them.
Also the argument that because the terrorists are barbaric is a justification for us to use barbaric methods is ridiculous. Being barbaric is what makes them terrorists. It’s what defines them as immoral evil people. The whole point of our fight against them is to show that the rule of law and common goodwill is superior to their ideology. By lowering ourselves to their level we are essentially handing them a victory.
#7 — we liberals certainly understand the desire for revenge, we feel it too.
but actions taken in revenge only get you locked in a vicious circle of gang violence, where every day each exacts revenge on the other and peace is never accomplished.
and there is no exit strategy from that — we need to get back to treating al queda as criminals, and grind them down in our court system.
our military is mighty, the finest in the world. but what we need are sneaky cops to smoke these jerks out, and cuff ’em. then bore the world with endless trials.
show the world by example that we ain’t taking shit, but we are not going to denigrate ourselves by acting like the dictators we are trying to free these people from.
trying to subdue an entire people through force just keeps everyone pissed off. stay cool and take the wind from out of their sails.
#7,
I am an American and I fully support torture …
Then why do you hate America and what she represents?
“has yet to create an elite corps of interrogators” – I would argue that this statement is dubious at best, if there is such an elite corp, its existence/practice should not be in the public realm. Besides most of the huge intel finds do not come from interrogation, supporting evidence might, but instead from computers that are found and other clandestine operations. For example, the computer that was found with Khaled Sheikh Mohammad was a gold mine for names, dates, and events.
Of course stand alone torture is not the most effective method, the D.O.D. has stated this along with several other pundits, and physiologists. Most of the prisoners at Gitmo are not tortured everyday, but instead once upon capture/inital holding. After this process of “breaking down” the interrogators attempt to build a relationship with the person’s broken psyche.
#11 fighting terrorism in the courts is what brought us 9/11. themilitary option is the only one that can effectively stop and deter these people
fusion I dont even give a damn about you and your comments you only try to instigate hate and derision so I wont give you any more pleasure for your sick psyche
Torture is not the right course for us to take, not only because it is ineffective and strategically stupid, but also deeply morally wrong. My grandfather was an interrogator in the Pacific during WWII, and he had to deal with people just as, if not more, brainwashed than the Muslim extremists; people who thought that Americans were literally demons from hell, out to rape their women and eat their children. This might seem extreme, but if you go and look at what the Japanese people were told by their authorities, you will see this is true. And back then, at the direst hour, the most effective interrogation method was not beating them to a pulp, or waterboarding them; anyone who did that sort of thing would have been subjected to court martial. No, the most effective interrogation technique was a chocolate bar, because it destroyed their belief that our boys were evil. Pmitchel, do you really think that Muslim’s are so opposite-sketch that reinforcing their view that we are evil is going to get them to give up info? Or have you not bothered to think about the atrocities you are advocating?
#14 #11 fighting terrorism in the courts is what brought us 9/11. themilitary option is the only one that can effectively stop and deter these people
Your military option worked wonders in Iraq.
Defenders of the harshest interrogations, particularly as practiced by the C.I.A. at secret overseas sites, say they were carefully devised and have produced valuable intelligence. An agency spokesman, Paul Gimigliano, said the program “has generated a rich volume of intelligence that has helped the United States and other countries disrupt terrorist activities and save innocent lives.”
This from the agency whose director called the Al-queda/Iraq link a “slam dunk”. And how many people needlessly have died in Iraq due to shitty intelligence about WMDs?
themilitary option is the only one that can effectively stop and deter these people
Yeah. How’s that going, P?
Let me guess… your parents beat the snot out of you when you were a kid, and you “turned out just fine.”
Just out of curiosity, what have you contributed to this country lately? I mean, are you a veteran? Have kids who serve? Do you do charity work? Or are you just another chickenhawk sitting at home in your recliner cheering on the zionists and their tools?
14. Well Mitch, at least you have the guts to tell us where you stand as an aspiring politician, even if it is an asinine position. Good luck with your campaign.
#18 – Whoa whoa whoa, “zionists and their tools” ? You better be careful how you through that term around, you sound like Fatah al-Islam.
one thing I will always try to be is truthful. I am not politically correct , and I will speak my mind. You may agree ,you may disagree but with me you will know where I stand
I also am not afraid to admit it if you prove me wrong.
Pmitchell I am an American and I fully support torture to get information from the bastards who keep cutting the heads off our people and blowing up our service men
Do you consider yourself a good American who believes in the constitution and its prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment?
But that’s not even the question here… the issue is that torture is counter productive to intelligence gathering.
Let’s say, you have a prison with in a communist island country with 400 prisoners which you are torturing. SO, you get about 250 confessions and three or four of them are true. How do you know which three or four are true?
This problem of torture could not be clearer to me, but perhaps that’s because I’ve had about ten years to think about it, living in a part of the world where it is one of the main investigative techniques.
#7. Pmitchell,
Spoken like a true terrorist! I guess we’d better get out the old crank phone and wire you up! Why not? You may have some useful information hidden away amidst all that venom in your head – or not. Apparently it doesn’t matter, one way or another. Causing great pain is the real object of the exercise.
Firstly the constitution does not apply to enemy combatants period. It applies to American citizens only that is why it is the Constitution of the United States not the constitution of the world.
Secondly torture works, if it didn’t it would not be applied by so countries around the world be them friend or foe. It is like spam everyone says it doesn’t work and that they will never buy from a spam email but if it didn’t work they would stop because they would all go broke.
I don’t think we should torture every single man caught, but I have no trouble torturing the leaders an key individuals for the info they hold that could deter or prevent an attack on our country or our people
you can make up all the hypothetical situations you want ,you have never been tortured, I have never been tortured (except by that old girlfriend but she doesn’t really count ) I for one would tell you I would probably tell them any thing they wanted to know to make it stop.
Whoa whoa whoa, “zionists and their tools” ? You better be careful how you through that term around, you sound like Fatah al-Islam.
Yeah, eventually stealing a loaf of bread will be branded “terrorism”, but I can see that people like you already find it convenient to label anything you disagree with as “terrorism”. I don’t blame you… given your lack of any logical retort, name calling is the only tool in your belt. Bravo.
It’s pretty obvious that Israel is the puppeteer’s hand up GW’s ass. That doesn’t make me a terrorist, or even an arab sympathiser. I actually put the arabs (et al) and israelis in the same camp. They’re all insane. The israelis are just a lot better at how they accomplish their goals. I think the best solution is to arm both sides to the teeth and let them duke it out until nobody is left.
you don’t comment because you have no argument because I am right about the constitution and it really pisses you off that a conservative is correct
But cheer up if the Hillary gets elected you might get your wish, that is if she can load the supreme court with enough activists judges willing to throw out the sovereignty of our country so that other will like us again
Pmitch “I would probably tell them any thing they wanted to know to make it stop”
This is why torture is not always effective. When does the torturer figure out that the torturee does not know anything? Is it the first “I do not know” response or the fiftieth? May be the the torturee will create information just so the torturing will stop.
Whatever the torturee says during a torture session still has to be verified. This verification will take time so torture is not good for immediate emergencies.
Torture is very crude and very inefficient.
The Constitution is for the American people which includes the torturer unless the torturer wants to give up his/her citizenship. An American citizen should not be a victim of or a participant of cruel and unusual punishment
Speaking of morality and pragmatism===I laugh everytime we fire a gay arab speaking translater. He could probably break a terrorist overnight just by backing into the subject at hand?
Not all torture is inefficient. Stick some terrorists in a room and make them watch Britney Spears videos until they cough up the info you need.
27. So Mitch, Constitution aside, what about the Geneva Convention? Oh thats right, this being an illegal war, it just doesnt count right?