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15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense
When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 143 years ago, the scientists of the day argued over it fiercely, but the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution’s truth beyond reasonable doubt. Today that battle has been won everywhere–except in the public imagination.
Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy. They lobby for creationist ideas such as “intelligent design” to be taught as alternatives to evolution in science classrooms. As this article goes to press, the Ohio Board of Education is debating whether to mandate such a change. Some antievolutionists, such as Philip E. Johnson, a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley and author of Darwin on Trial, admit that they intend for intelligent-design theory to serve as a “wedge” for reopening science classrooms to discussions of God.
Here are just some of the questions. The answers and seven more questions can be found in the article.
1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.
2. Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.
3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.
4. Increasingly, scientists doubt the truth of evolution.
5. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution.
6. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?
7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.
8. Mathematically, it is inconceivable that anything as complex as a protein, let alone a living cell or a human, could spring up by chance.
#53, H,
…Do you think man could come up with such correctness? No, the Bible is absolute truth
Simple response. Could you present some evidence?
All I ask is the the UD and Creationists use the same standard of proof they demand of science. The suggestion that the “Bible” is beyond reproach also suggests the speaker has no idea what is actually in the”Bible”.
***
FYI: 2,000 years ago it was quite serious for a woman to have sex, let alone a child, out of wedlock. As happens even today, such a crime called for the stoning to death of the woman. Often, usually with the blessing of a priest or similar religious leader, the pregnancy was passed off as a virgin birth or similar explanation in order to spare or save the life of the woman. The modern equivalent to catching a sexually transmitted disease from a toilet seat.
In these cases, the woman would often be married off to someone much older, often a widower, from another town. Historians believe Mary, would be about 12 yrs old and Joseph would have been in his thirties when Jesus was born.
There isn’t exact historical proof that this is what happened, but it would be consistent with the times. It would also explain why Joseph is not regarded as the father of Jesus. Historians don’t know for sure because the records of the time have been lost or stored on an incompatible OS like WIN 3.11.
#60 – Rob,
First, I’m glad you made that caveat about lower animals. There are none. There is no higher and lower in evolution.
More importantly, here is the proper example of a world created by an intelligent, benevolent, all powerful designer.
1) All plants bear fruit.
2) All animals eat either fruit, nectar, or decaying matter.
3) No one ever dies so that another may eat.
4) Is there death? I’m not sure why there would be, except for death by boredom.
What we have instead is either a universe in which there is no god or a universe where god likes all of the following: war, pestilence, famine, disease, parasites, among life forms, bacteria are the favorite, making up the vast majority of all species and more than 50% of the biomass on the planet.
But, above all else, god loves nearly empty space, vast void tracts of nearly empty space at about 2.7 degrees kelvin. God also likes black holes, dust clouds, and, here and there, the odd barren rock. Once in a great while, god stuffs some life on a rock and lets it fester. There, life kills life, day in day out everyone is someone else’s lunch.
On the other hand, when viewed as a byproduct of highly unlikely events that become likely given enough time and the vastness of the universe, we can look at this random assemblage of life on this insignificant rock and find some beauty here and there in between the pain.
We can even marvel at the events that allowed us to contemplate the events that brought us here. I like that scenario much better. No meaning. No higher power. Just a random set of mutations guided by non-random natural selection and we get the ability to contemplate the vastness of the universe. For me, that leaves me much happier and more fulfilled.
And, oh yeah, it’s supported by real hard evidence!
#62, Scott: No higher power. Just a random set of mutations guided by non-random natural selection and we get the ability to contemplate the vastness of the universe.
See, there is intelligent life in the universe after all. Thanks, Scott, Carl would be proud, and I enjoy contemplating the universe with some of the finest optical equipment made by man on a near daily (or nightly) basis. From zero to universe in only 13.7 billion years.
You may find this satire on the age of the cosmos interesting:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/cutting/ageuniv.htm
#56, Scott, I finally had time to read the (rather lengthy) “Jesus Myth” article you linked. Most interesting. Here’s another link on ID / creationism and I think you’ll enjoy it.
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/creation.htm
#63 – BubbaRay,
That’s a good one. I think it may need a slight update to narrow the error bars now. I heard at a lecture (and hope I get the info correct, please check if you’re curious enough) that we now have it at 13.78 billion years plus or minus just 5%. I like hearing that the error bars are shrinking. The old 12-14 billion was a bit less emotionally satisfying with the relatively small, but still large by most peoples’ standards, range.
Speaking of circular reasoning with the Bible:
Science is true because scientists say it is true. Scientists have been known to be wrong (global cooling, for example). So far, the Bible hasn’t.
And by the way, there are some prophecies that Jesus couldn’t have memorized and fulfilled: Judas hanging himself, no bones broken, the soldiers not tearing his clothes but casting lots.
#66 – Graham,
I’d suggest turning off your computer and leaving it that way. See, the technology it uses is based solidly on science.
Oh, and yes, scientists do make mistakes. We’re all human. The field of science, however, is designed to correct such mistakes as epicycles in planetary orbits.
Global cooling happens to be a bad example though. First, it never reached the level of acceptance of global warming. Second, it was caused by the particulate matter in air pollution blocking the sun. So, we cleaned up the air of its particulate matter. China still needs to do the same. When they do, it will further increase global warming. Particulate matter blocking the sun is now called global dimming, BTW.
So, the bible is 100% correct? Interesting. Do you still stone people to death for wearing a mix of cotton and wool? Do you still think it’s a good idea for people in difficult situations with respect to finding a new spouse to breed with their daughters? Do you still believe it’s OK to own slaves as long as they are from other nations?
What if Jesus never actually existed? Paul didn’t think he did. Paul said something like “If Jesus had existed, he would not even have been a priest.” And, he’s the only link between the time of Jesus and the first written section of the new testament. What if it’s all just allegory? The historians of the time made no mention of Jesus or of any controversial crucifixion. Maybe the entire new testament is a heaping steaming mound of dung that sometimes contradicts the heaping steaming mound of dung that is the old testament. What then?
#66
To add to what Misanthropic Scott said, you are forgetting that if Jesus existed, he did not write the Bible nor did anyone with firsthand knowledge of Jesus. Thus, the author of a story can make the central character know or not know whatever they please.
Graham,
The Bible is obviously wrong on a lot of different levels. And you know that.
1. Scientifically, the world is not geocentric nor is it flat.
2. Jurisprudentially it is wrong. As Scott points out in comment 67.
3. Historically, it is probably wrong or at least problematic. Ask any serious Israeli historians or archaeologists. They would dearly love to find more evidence of the historical truth of the Bible.
4. In the execution of war it is wrong. It is wrong to obliterate people: Deuteronomy 20:16-17 (New International Version)
“16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
“17 Completely destroy [a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.”
5. It is wrong about human rights, concerning slaves & women.
The Bible isn’t to be swallowed whole. In reality, you don’t, so don’t pretend you do.
An answer to your problems: (I live in China, so I was in bed while you continued to talk.)
1. Where does the Bible say the earth is flat? It does mention the four corners of the world, but if you think about it, North, South, East and West could be considered corners. Also, the Bible talks about Jesus taking our sins as far away as East is from West. If they thought the world was flat, why not say north and south? Since the world is round, you can never travel east so far that you begin to go west.
2. As for the jurisprudence, I don’t understand some of what he said, but I do not follow the law of Moses exactly as it was written; however, that does not mean it was incorrect. It was not the law of America, so I don’t understand the argument. That is like saying Chinese law is wrong because they do not have stop signs like America.
3. Again, you are putting the words of men who were not there and are studying this after thousands of years above those who were there and those who experienced what happened. By the way, we found the Hittites. What makes you think we won’t find other cities? There is no other book with as much evidence as the Bible. If what the Bible says is wrong, how can we say what Plato, Homer, Socrates, or anyone says is true?
4. It may not be humanitarian to kill entire cities, but that is not all they did: Deu 20:10-14 “When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. And when the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you.”
Also, God punished the cities that they destroyed: “But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded, that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God.” (Deu 20:16-18) They were not mass murderers many people paint them to be.
5. These human rights you are mentioning, slaves and women, slaves were not treated as in America. God gave very hard rules for both slave masters and other people. If a slave was injured intentionally, the other person must be injured in the same way. Some say that leaves everyone toothless and blind, but it really keeps people from starting the violence. Think about it. If you were going to loose your eye if you take someone else’s eye, you would think twice before doing it. As for women, what was so bad in the law? Men were to be the leader of their family to allow women to be mothers? That’s terrible! Men were not allowed to have sex with women during their period? How could God be so cruel! If a man has sex with a woman he must marry her? What terrible human rights!
I’m glad you think you know more about me than I do! The Bible IS to be swallowed whole. It interprets itself. I’d love to tell you about it devoid of any religion which says they have the corner of truth. The Bible is truth and I believe it so. You should, too.
Wow, Graham #70, I’m nearly speechless! You have a long ways to go to demonstrate that you even have a conscience, much less know how to use it.
Your defense in point #4 is that before any slaughter, the invading Jewish army offered terms of “peace” which consisted of complete surrender of all land, followed by a life of forced labor and servitude to the Jews? Any resistance from a city in the defense of their sovereign borders entitled the Jewish invaders to slaughter all the males and plunder everything else, including the women and children? And this was all justified because the indigenous people served different gods, and didn’t follow laws that they had never even heard of, given by the one “true” Hebrew god, the very same god you worship?
I guess Rob was wrong after all — you’ve bought into the complete evil line of Biblical philosophy for human suffering. Now excuse my while I vomit…..
GaryMarks: How DARE you suggest that I do not have a conscience! If you believe there is no God and therefore no law for which to follow, what possibly could a conscience be based upon? Therefore, I start to wonder, are you now god who can decide what is good and decent for all humankind? Please, oh enlightened one, show me the way!
What does “surrender” mean if you get to keep your land and your freedom? You give over your right to … what?
I start to wonder, have you even read the Bible you so trash? Or are you one who thinks you don’t need to open the book to know what it says? I feel I am arguing with an ignorant person, not in capabilities but in actual knowledge.
As for human suffering, I am not to the extreme of Falwell where our sins directly cause our suffering. But think of all the people you know, see, or hear about with diseases like AIDS and other STDs and ask yourself this question: The Bible teaches that a man and a woman should not have sex with a person outside marriage. How did this person get their STD (or how did the person who gave it to them receive it)? Human suffering doesn’t come from God punishing you for your sin. It is the consequence of your sins. For example, if my girlfriend gets pregnant, the child is not a punishment. The child is the consequence. This is another reason I am against abortion. It punishes a child for something his or her parents did. 9/11 wasn’t caused by God punishing us. It was caused by evil people who did not follow what God writes in the Bible (the New Testament, not the Law of Moses).
I hope you made it to a toilet. You may want to stop partying so much, but I’m sure your conscience is beating you up for treating yourself this way, so I won’t.
#70
> Where does the Bible say the earth is flat?
Any reference to the “four corners of the earth”, “ends of the earth” or the Earth having edges clearly only make sense with a flat earth. It is not metaphorical (an impossible concept anyway in a literal bible translation). Examples of the “four corners” or “ends of earth” include Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Daniel 4:11, Job 37:3, or Job 28:24.
Then there is the concepts of building towers that let you see all the kingdoms of the Earth such as Matthew 4:8 or Daniel 4:7-8. Only with a flat earth is such a thing possible. If they were cognizant of a spherical Earth, they would not have made such a reference.
#72 Graham, I dare to suggest that you have no conscience because of the god and the ideas you worship. Yes, I can decide for myself what is evil, and although my judgements are imperfect, they reflect a sense of humanity in my own conscience that proves to me that the god described in your Bible did not create me in his image, and thus he cannot be my creator.
In addition to the “defense” you made in your earlier comment (which actually sounded more like an indictment to me), there is much that I find evil in your religion. I look at what it takes to kill innocent Egyptian children in order to secure the freedom of his favored people, as your god did by his own admission (if you believe the Bible), and I say that he is evil. I look at what it takes to torture a man to death by stoning him because he committed the trivial infraction of gathering wood on the wrong day of the week, and I say that the “god” who commanded that punishment is evil. I look at the genocide of the Great Flood, with mothers holding their infants up above the water as they gasp their last breath, and I say that with a god like that, you have no need for a separate “Satan” character in your myth. Your own god is as evil as any demon. According to the stories in the book you revere above all others, he consistently punished innocent people for the sins of the guilty, and your Bible often reads much like a confession to his great inhumanity toward the creatures he claims to love most.
People who have their conscience fully engaged at all times do not worship such a source of evil. The fact that he is fictional does not make your worship of the ideas and principles he embodies any less troubling.
#70 even more…
> How could God be so cruel! If a man has sex with a woman he must marry her
Leviticus 20:9 – Death for those that curse their father or mother
Leviticus 20:13 – Death for homosexual sex.
Leviticus 20:15:16 – Death for bestiality (both man and animal)
Leviticus 21:9 – Death by burning for a priest daughter’s that becomes a prostitute.
Leviticus 24:16 – Death by stoning for blasphemy (Life of Brian anyone?)
Numbers 15:32-36 – Death by stoning for gathering wood on the Sabbath
Need we go on? There is a tremendous amount of cruelty in the Bible by modern standards which is why it is ridiculous to claim such a book is infallible or that it should be used as a guideline for modern behavior.
Again, I say, I am arguing with people who are ignorant of what the Bible says. Oh, you may know the verses your friends have told you to tell people, but you have yet to read the entire book. So don’t pretend to be an expert on a book on which you have no clue. And before you start attacking me for saying this, read at least one book in the Bible (one of the Gospels, I would suggest).
So I would guess poor drug addicts going to jail is also terrible for you. Those mothers who can’t help being addicted to drugs going to jail must be more than you can handle. You see the world entirely different where people are not held accountable for their actions and those who use punish them are the evil ones. That is unconscionable for me.
Actually, I have read the Bible thank you very much. There is no surer way of defeating the ramblings of a Christian than by showing them *all* of what is in it and not just the parts they want to read.
> You see the world entirely different where people are not
> held accountable for their actions and those who use punish
> them are the evil ones.
You mean that they are accountable right up until they “repent” and then all is forgiven.
Graham writes, “Again, I say, I am arguing with people who are ignorant of what the Bible says.”
Good job, Graham! You’ve done your homework — that’s the standard line to pull out when someone like Thomas or me starts making you really squirm. The Bible obviously wasn’t written so people like us who assign normal, straightforward meanings to the words in the stories could see past the blatantly evil nature of the god portrayed, and see the “goodness” you’ve discovered, right?
My biggest stumbling block has always been my conscience, because ever since childhood, I have not been able to fully disengage it the way “true believers” can. To me, killing innocent people for the sins of the guilty will always be evil, and that is one thing that the god you worship has clearly and unapologetically confessed to in your Bible. How much “interpretation” can you apply to a passage that will make slaughter of the innocent seem just and fair? I lost the talent for self-delusion long ago, but you’ve obviously still got the hang of it.
By the way, I can understand why you want to direct us to the New Testament, because it’s much more palatable, but according to your own religious doctrine, the Old Testament describes the very same god, and I find that it paints a much more vivid, intense, and complete portrait of his character.
I’ve heard it before, but it bears repeating… Cripes!
Oh knights who say, “cripes!” (just a little Monty Python humor)
“You mean that they are accountable right up until they ‘repent’ and then all is forgiven.” – Can you tell me how this is different than anyone else? A man hits his wife and she stays with him only if he repents by going to anger management and working on their marriage. Not quite squirming, Thomas. Try again.
GaryMarks, maybe the Bible wasn’t written for people like you … who can’t read!
“The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, ‘I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.’ But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.” (Gen 6:5-8)
These people were not innocent. Noah and his family was, and he survived.
“Then the LORD said, ‘Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.’ So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. Then Abraham drew near and said, ‘Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?’ And the LORD said, ‘If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.'” (Gen 18:20-26)
The number was lowered all the way down to 10 and even then God saved the righteous Lot and his family. (If you want to see how evil they were, read about the angels visiting Lot.)
Sorry, next time, read at least a few more verses before you try to say God is cruel using, “normal, straightforward meanings to the words in the stories.”
By the way, I would tell you to read the Old Testament, but you have shown an inability to understand context. The New Testament includes much smaller stories for people with much smaller attention spans.
God created single celled organisms,
after that it was up to us. There’s
also something called social evolution,
sure would be nice to see that sometime.
I just wanted to say again that I and many Christians believe in both evolution and creation.
We feel no personal conflict with the ancient symbolic and mythic account of creation in Genesis and modern science.
What about “God’s word” that was voted out (some even claimed to have been written by Apostles)?
Comment by Thomas
One of my favorite ‘unofficial’ gospels.
(for those who don’t know, there was a Gospel of Thomas)
J/P=?
God saved the righteous Lot and his family. (If you want to see how evil they were, read about the angels visiting Lot.)
Hmm… obviously your ‘biblical god’ doesn’t have the capability to forsee the future, since Lot was seduced (incest) by his daughters. (Gen19:36)
Plus, of course, his offer of his virgin daughters to the crowd…(Gen19:8)
J/P=?
God is cruel using, “normal, straightforward meanings to the words in the stories.”
Hmmm bears tearing apart 42 children for laughing at a bald man?
SUCH a ‘loving’ gawd
J/P=?
You know something REALLY funny…
I think God, put us here, and has been Laughing sence.
Or pulling his hair out.
I think it was Pohl that wrote a story about an Absolute being..
How he fathered many worlds, Looking…watching…
One day he entered EDEN, and Adam, DIDNT BOW…
god asked why?
Adam said…You made us in your Image, as Equals didnt you?? Why should I bow?
God Laughed, and said…
FINALLY, someone gets it.
He made man to MAKE his OWN mistakes…thats why we have choice. NOT 1 choice, but many.
We see his rules, and decide to live by them…But.
If you really look at them…ALL it says.
Is….”BE NICE TO EACH OTHER”
The prayers say that we must be as children…
FINE…
children are inquesitive, and wandering…
LETS LEARN, and EXPLORE…
during hte 1400-1500’s the inquestion, SAID….
IF IT AINT in the bible….IT AINT SO….
SCREW IT…
WE MUST LEARN…ALL…
[Double post – ed.]
36. “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female’.” Mark 10:6. So the beginning of the creation of this world and humankind is described by the Genesis account.
That Adam and Eve story isn’t about the planet Earth. The universe was here long before Earth and humans walked upon it, and you know what? If we destroy ourselves, existence won’t stop, it’ll keep on going. The planet Earth will keep on spinning, and star will keep on being born and dying out there. None of this means the story of Adam and Eve isn’t true!
It’s the story of what everything was before. You don’t have to insist that evolution is fantasy to have faith. You don’t have to reject the Adam and Eve story to accept that planet Earth wasn’t here at day one. If there is alien life somewhere out there, can’t they be children of Adam and Eve too? Can’t that life be loved by God as much as us?
The universe is a magnificent clock, evolution a shinning cog. It all works, and if you believe in the Creator, it would seem a divine pursuit to try and understand how it all works. Many of the scientists named in this thread did exactly that. They were men of deep faith, and inquistive minds. Seems to me it would be Satan who would relish close-mindedness, the blind rejection of science–rejecting the obvious way God set it all up. God was never in the business of explaining molecular biology to ancient men, had more pressing and important things to say. So we filled it in as best we could. Now we should believe lies, teach these to our children, just because people didn’t have a full grasp back then?
Science and religion should not be at odds. Religion shouldn’t–and until recently–isn’t about explaining the mundane details of the way the universe works. Religion should be there to explain the important parts. Science will never be able to answer, “Why am I here?”
87 Religion should be there to explain the important parts. Science will never be able to answer, “Why am I here?”
4 billion of my brain cells died when I read that.
87: “Can’t that life be loved by God as much as us.”
I hope not for their own sakes. Remember, this is the same God that believes in mass punishment and subjecting living beings to suffer pain for all eternity.
First, I’d like to thank Graham for staying in the debate. Otherwise, we’d have a bunch of guys preaching to the choir.
Concerning his post # 70.
1. World is flat. Generally, it is inferred from numerous biblical citations and, of course, the lack of any evidence whatsoever that they conceived of it as a sphere. I assume that since you didn’t respond to my comment concerning the Bible’s position on a geocentric world, you are conceding the position.
2. Jurisprudence. I think Thomas in post #76 does a great job in outlining biblical crime & punishment. I contend that torturing people to death is wrong. I think that’s as close as you can get to an absolute truth on earth. Do you really want the other side of that argument?
3. Historical record. The historical record is poor for the Bible. There is a better historical record supporting evolution, which you don’t accept, than there is supporting most every historical event in the Bible, which you say is completely true. That doesn’t make the Bible wrong, so much as unproven, especially given the standard you have for evolutionary proof.
4. So, your position is that what they did, purportedly on God’s command, was morally okay? I think a much more sensible position is that the Bible is proof that God’s Name will be used to support atrocities. In which case the Bible is 100% correct. Call it a matter of faith, but I don’t believe God orders atrocities nor condones collateral damage. Therefore, in my view, the attribution to made in Deuteronomy to God is in error. Otherwise, you’re stuck with the position of innocents being murdered, as we know, war is impossible without the death of innocents.
5. No, slavery, regardless of the rules, is wrong. Therefore, the Bible as a moral guide in this area is flawed.
I spent 8 years in Christian schools, but we were taught to use a critical eye in our Bible studies. The Bible was viewed, in part, as a story of the evolving concept of God from the Israelite God of War to a higher concept outlined by Jesus, the God of Love, and later, by Paul, as the God for all people, not just Jews. We weren’t required back then to turn ourselves into pretzels arguing against science, which is clearly a side issue to spiritual development.