You know the world’s gone wacky when Uncle Dave agrees with Pat Buchanan on something. But it sure is refreshing to hear a candidate for prez like Ron Paul say something that doesn’t reek of rhetoric and BS. Hearing the truth sometimes hurts and he’s hurting the other candidates. As the article points out, based on those who responded to Fox’s poll, he won the debate.
But Who Was Right – Rudy or Ron? – by Pat Buchanan
It was the decisive moment of the South Carolina debate.
Hearing Rep. Ron Paul recite the reasons for Arab and Islamic resentment of the United States, including 10 years of bombing and sanctions that brought death to thousands of Iraqis after the Gulf War, Rudy Giuliani broke format and exploded:
“That’s really an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of 9/11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don’t think I have ever heard that before, and I have heard some pretty absurd explanations for Sept. 11.
“I would ask the congressman to withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn’t really mean that.”
The applause for Rudy’s rebuke was thunderous – the soundbite of the night and best moment of Rudy’s campaign.
Of the 10 candidates on stage in South Carolina, Dr. Paul alone opposed the war. He alone voted against the war. Have not the last five years vindicated him, when two-thirds of the nation now agrees with him that the war was a mistake, and journalists and politicians left and right are babbling in confession, “If I had only known then what I know now …”
And then there’s this story from Michigan where the Repub headquarters practically shut down because of all the calls supporting Paul.
Ron Paul is the only hope we have out of ALL of the candidates, either Democrat or Republican. He is honest, and his votes actually are in accordance with the constitution. And as far as I know, always has been. That means a 100% constitutional voting record. I recommend to anyone going over to YouTube and doing a “Ron Paul” search to learn more about him.
And don’t forget, he actually votes his conscious, and since he is believes in the constitution, he voted against giving the power to go to war in Iraq to president Bush. War must be declared as an act of congress, not by the President.
For anyone questioning why Islamic fundamentalists want to attack us, here it is in Osama Bin Laden’s own words:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html
Ron Paul is correct in this matter. 100% correct. It is what the CIA refers to as “blowback”. Blowback is an intelligence term meaning retaliation as a result of actions taken. Our actions. We are not hated because we are free.
And to further analyze the exchange between Guliani and Paul, Paul was clever in not mentioning Israel. Even though it is the primary reason (our devotion to Israel), especially militarily, that Islamic fundamentalists wish to harm us. Read the Bin Laden link above. Instead, Paul focused upon our other infractions such as sanctions against Iraq, our bombing of Iraq, and our military bases in Saudi Arabia.
For if Paul were to mention Israel, he would immediately be labeled an anti-Semite and viciously attacked in a coordinated media campaign. I guarantee it.
Way to go Ron!
#28 – Well 9/11 didn’t happen because Bin Laden got mad at the Dutch. Of course its related to American policy in the Middle East. Our idea of a terrorist is someone else’s idea of a freedom fighter.
Now their tactics are aborrant, and I am in favor of attacking and destroying terrorist training camps, ferreting out and arresting or killing cell leaders and operatives, and taking a very proactive and brutally aggressive stance against them.
But I’m not 6 and I’m not stupid. I am not deluded into thinking that the United States is hapless, with hands free of blood. Our government’s misguided policies and the corporation interests of American and European multinationals (especial in oil) all had a hand in stirring the hornet’s nest. Only an idiot thinks it is simply and “they hate us for our freedom.”
“We” didn’t ask for this… Our leaders in foreign policy did. But we will never get to hold them accountable.
Ron Paul’s popularity can be explained even in the GOP.
GOP is traditionally the party of conservatives. But, there are many kinds of conservatives. Since 1994, the GOP has been dominated by an unholy alliance of Religious Conservatives and Neo-Conservatives. The two philosophies are actually incompatible, but thanks to propagandists like Rush Limbaugh et al. the neo-cons have been able to convince the religio-cons that they are on the same page. In reality, to the corporatist-imperialist neo-cons, don’t really give a damn about the idealist-theocratic religio-cons, its all lip service. They are the ones that are in power and in control of the “right wing agenda” these days.
The under represented conservatives are the Goldwater Conservatives, sometimes called paleo-cons. They are the smaller government – pro freedom – constitutionalists, they also tend to take more of a pragmatic approach to government. John McCain once upon a time was a paleo-con, I think pro-choice / pro gay rights Rudy Giuliani fits the bill too. But neither want to admit it. They are both pandering to the far right these days on the theory that you need the support of the neo-cons and religio-cons in order to get the nomination.
Ron Paul is a libertarian, an even more under represented branch of conservatism. He probably wont win and he knows it. But his participation in the process is bringing out hope for the GOP. The Neo-Con aganda has crashed and burned taking the religious right with it. If the GOP picks a Neo-Con (like recent neo-convert John McCain) they are going to lose big in the general election.
The future hope of the GOP rests in the hands of the paleo-cons and the libertarians. Ron Paul is the only candidate to represent that group. His frankness and honesty is a breath of fresh air that is even attracting moderate Dems.
The reaction from the crowd to Rudy’s emotional reply made me want to puke. The Fox Noise spin machine was into full gear right after the debate. Hell even during the debate Chris Wallace was the first to spin what Ron Paul said. Even CNN and MSNBC went with the spin created by Fox Noise. I will give credit to CNN for interviewing Paul after the debate. That video is worth a look if you have not seen it yet. You can view it here:
http://tinyurl.com/yqq43x
Funny how trouble follows US interests around. Mystifying, even. Here’s a non-U.S. view to consider:
“When in doubt, it is always worthwhile to take a look at a map, where are raw materials resources, and the routes to them? Then lay a map of civil wars and conflicts on top of that – they coincide. The same is the case with the third map: nodal points of the drug trade. Where all this comes together, the American intelligence services are not far away. By the way, the Bush family is linked to oil, gas and weapons trade, through the Bin Laden family.”
— Hans von Bulow, Minister of Defence to German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt
As for the chicken hawk now in charge in D.C.:
“…like all men of power, when he talked of prices worth paying, you could be sure of one thing. Someone else was paying.”
— Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
OFTLO you pick out two attacks against the US and you think Bin Laden is mad at us? He fought the Soviets for a decade in Afghanistan. The guy is a nut job that just wants to kill people. You can’t be serious when you ascribe a logical motive to the guy. We were a target of opportunity to him for his own sadistic reasons nothing else.
The biggest problem with the whole Middle East issue is that people want a logial reason why they are killing each other and there isn’t one!! They hate everyone not them end of story. Of course it is easier to believe there are BIG conspracies by the oil companies or political agendas that Bush represent etc. So if you aren’t 6 years old face the world for what it is and realize that Hate is more powerful than most any other motivation and then try and make a solution with that as your foundation. I wish you luck.
Yeah because they hate us for our freedom is the mature way to look at the situation. The government’s international policy has no unintended consequences, and nothing to do with helping them bastards garner followers. /sarcasm
#36 KVolk, if Bin Ladin didn’t have motives that are logical within his ideology (remember, he’s a religious zealot), he would never be able to recruit the large numbers of followers that he has, nor would he be admired in certain sectors of the Muslim world for standing up to the West. There must be some thread of logic that you’re not seeing.
Think about it before you throw your hands in the air and dismiss Bin Ladin as only looking for targets of opportunity for mindless killing.
Obviously, it doesn’t help that so many of the people most intensely concerned with the Middle East (Muslims, Jews, and Christians) all worship the god who (as their myths tell us) invented terrorism and gave it legitimacy as a tool for doing god’s will. Until people turn their back on ancient superstitions, there may not be a lot of hope, but at least understanding terrorists’ motivations would be a start, and Ron Paul appears to have made that start.
P.S. to ArianeB… I have to admire anyone who includes CSPAN in their channel surfing and gives it due consideration 😉
#38 Gary Marks I understand his motives pretty well…he hates anyone that disagrees with his world view. So based on that you can only act in your own best interests which I think is a worth while debate. It is asinine to think you can do anything that would change his world view because it is based on his hate and desire to kill. Would you try and reason with a serial killer? Remeber people in this area of the world have been kill each other for thouands of years not just because we invaded Iraq, that’s just the excuse of the moment.
Anyone think gay marriage might be a motivation for these guys to hate America?
I’ll say it again. Lefty endorsements of Ron Paul’s statement contradict their previous statements that Al Qaeda couldn’t have gotten involved with Saddam Hussein.
#41 And you would be wrong again.
Osama Bin Laden has stated that the motivation of 9/11 was the stationing of troops on Saudi Arabian soil, which the US has since removed.
Official government reports have come out saying flatly that there was never a link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaida. Hussein hated the Islamic fundamentalist movement.
#39 KVolk, I agree that reversing Bin Ladin’s hatred of the West at this point is not realistic, but to quote Thomas #25, “changing our foreign policy strategy won’t stop terrorists, but we might be able to reduce the odds of fostering terrorists.”
You seem to already agree that we should act in our own self-interest, but what if changing our policy approach when we’re in someone else’s neighborhood halfway around the globe really is in our self-interest? There’s already a large body of opinion, well represented within our own intelligence community, that says our invasion of Iraq was counterproductive to long term U.S. interest in the very fact that it fosters terrorism. Do you think that’s the first time we’ve ever seeded terrorism?
I think it’s dangerous to get to a place where we refuse to change because we don’t want it to look like any kind of defeat. Someday, the ability to change course may come to be seen as a sign of strength, not weakness. I guess we’re not there yet.
As usual Mr. Fusion is being his leftist contradictory self.
In his first post he attacks Guillani as a kiler, and living off the better goverment of his predessor, there by making him a lousy Mayor.
Dinkins didn’t have any policies, thats why Rudy was able to whip his ass big time in a 4 to 1 Democratic city. If Rudy did the thigs you said on 9/11…then he would have been arrested or forced to leave public life. Neither has happened, the only people spouting your vile are Democrats and their union lackeys.
In Fusions next post he attacks Israel’s aggression and brutality. Note, no one else has committed agression and brutality in that conflict because it all happened 60 years ago, and not NOW.
You may want to explain that stance to all of the Israelie’s killed in the Infantada.
And of course, only a leftist of the first order would equate denying a country the means to develop nuclear weapons or energy(in the third largest oil producing country in the world?) with the terrible crime of hurting their natrional pride. You really didn’t say that did you Fusion???….geez
Of course it’s Fusion next post that is really eye opening. In it he uses the US’s policies for **decades before shrub** as why we were attacked. Amazing how when he’s attacking Israel, the past 60 years of palistinian/arab agression and brutality can’t be used to defend Israelie policies(but can be used to ok Palistinian agression and brutality), after all, that was then, not NOW. But when Fusion the leftist wants to explain why the US is attacked, the past 60 years suddenly becomes relevent, at least for our enemies.
Oh…and Fusion….former Senator Mitchell had nothing to do with Israelie/Palistinian peace. He was appointed by Clinton as the US Special Envoy to Northern Ireland in 1995, where he did a pretty good job of bringing the 2 sides together for talks.
Ron Paul is partly correct about why we were attacked on 9/11. bin Laden has said it was because of the bombing in Iraq after the first gulf war and also because of our troops in Saudi Arabia and other reasons. But he left out not just bin laden’s desire(but also other Islamic terror groups and radical Imam’s) to return Islam to it’s roots and a war against the infidels to destroy and/or convert them to Islam.
I like some of his stands on constitutionality and stripping the federal goverment of a lot of it’s assumed powers. But, he’s also for closed borders, no world involvement by the US, no federally mandated pensions(Social Security), no Medicare, no welfare, almost no taxes(who needs them if he dumps all those programs), and may be a closet racist(the jury is still out on that). He has claimed that Reagan wasn’t conservative enough. He’s against Student Loan program. And the list goes on and on.
The only thing the media is touting is his opposition to the war. The other, not so wonderous things on his agenda haven’t been really talked about yet, because the media loves to stir things…..why they pushed Obama so hard.
So, all you Republicans out there, be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
And Fusion…..take your meds, turn off The daily KOs and moveon.org and take a long nap.
Can you say “Liberterian”?
#42, Ron Paul said it had to do with bombings of Iraq for ten years.
Liberals have no problem cheering this after telling us that the IRaq-AlQaeda connection was a lie. They know it was a lie because there’s no way Al-Qaeda could have anything to with Saddam and they were mortal enemies. Well if that’s the case then why would Bin Laden attack because of Iraq?
#43 Gary Marks I am all for trying a new stratgedy but not one based on the flawed theory we influence people like Bin Laden by what we do. Terrorists exsist because of their own twisted ideals and they just use us or anyone else they dislike as convientant justification for their horrible deeds.To give you a positive model look at how we are working with in the community in Afghanistan and appear to be making better progress and there is none of that nonsense about how we are creating terrorists. It’s like saying because you make money that you created the criminal that robs you and takes it from you. That is the piece that I disagree with and won’t support as a justification for a policy change. It’s pure nonsense…Now do we need to change yes I believe so and that would be a fruitful discussion.
#46 MikeN, the operational Iraq (Hussein) to Al Qaeda connection that the administration alleged was indeed a lie, but you seem to be confusing that with a sympathetic connection that Bin Ladin made with the destruction that Western bombs and sanctions brought to the Muslim Iraqi population.
I wouldn’t have thought it was so easy to confuse the two, yet that appears to be what you’ve done.
no, no, no! They hate us because we are free! That is why the Bushies say that making us less free will make us more safe.
#50, Forgive me. I am agitated by the ignorance of the reli-con right wing nut in #44. Yes, you are correct, I should have known the obvious. I’ve been told that enough time by people who should know.
PS, The grass is cut and my wife says I did a good job. Shoot, I didn’t even use the weed wacker. Maybe she wants me to cook dinner again.
#51…Fusion…..hard to forgive you Fusion…..a grown man should know better than to fib.
First….George Mitchell….when Goggled, there are 14,900,000 hits. Not that paltry 117,000 you cite. And after reading the first 68 of them(including 4 bio’s) I have yet to find any mention of Mitchel and the mid-est. I think maybe YOUR the one who needs to learn to read.
I’m not going to go into a blow by blow account of the Dinkins/Guliani records. Surfice to say that Dinkins was the cause of racial riots, and dicrimination by blacks against Koreans and other asian groups. Also that his tenure as Mayor was not exactly stellar. As to Guliani, he is credited(rightly or wrongly) with bringing crime down to it’s lowest in 30 years and keeping it there through his *local policing* policies. He also sent several corrupt city officials to jail and managed to make life bearable in the city. He also was known as a hard ass/ nasty man.
I don’t care for him, so I’m not going to argue his good points with you.
As to the Palistinians, that 60 year old history you don’t want to bring up is important, it wasn’t the Israelies that attacked the Palisitinians, Syrians, Jordanese, and Egyptions when Israel was given it’s independence…..it was the other way around. The Arabs attacked Israel before the ink was dry on their independence papers. Israel offered and pleaded with the Palistinians to stay and help to build a properous country, but 500,000 choose exile to living with Jews(of course they had all been living together for 1800 years prior). They believed Nasser and the others that said Israel would be crushed and they could have all of palistine. OOOP’s, they got screwed.
It wasn’t and isn’t Isralies that are blowing themselves up in resturants, bus stations, schools, it’s the Palisitinians. There has been major bloodshed by both sides in the last 60 years…..but it’as not all on one nation. You have a habit going a long way back in these posts of siding with the Palistinians no matter what….your responses on posts about Palisitians/Israelie events are almost word for word copies of groups like the BBC, and other anti-Israelie groups(New York Times, Boston Globe, Al Jeezeera)…..you like to claim that anyone who disagree’s with you are neo-con/religious rights wing nuts and only spout the wingnut line. Well, your just as bad, only for the left wing, wing nuts daily line.
And if you want to try to insult me…..pick something better than calling me the above. I’m a proud conservative and never say other wise. I also think for myself(you should try it). I’m not religious or a right wing, wing nut……in fact, I’m actually quite liberal on many things(thats called *open mindedness*), something you can’t claim.
Anyway, glad you got your lawn mowed.