I much prefer the Lexus LS 600h than the Prius
Toyota Surpasses GM in Global Sales in First Quarter – Bloomberg.com: If you have been following any automotive news for the past year, this story is no surprise to you. Lets see if Toyota can keep the pace for the rest of the year.
Toyota Motor Corp. sold more cars and trucks than General Motors Corp. for the first time in the January-March quarter, on demand for Corolla and Camry sedans.
Toyota’s global sales rose 9.2 percent to 2.35 million vehicles, the company said today. Sales at GM, the world’s largest carmaker for 76 years, gained 3 percent to 2.26 million vehicles, the company said on its Web site.
Toyota, which probably earned more than any other company in Japan last fiscal year, is forecast by some industry analysts to surpass GM to become the world’s largest automaker on an annual basis this year aided by its fuel-efficient models including the RAV4 SUV, Yaris compact car, and Prius hybrid.
One of yesterday’s chuckles was watching a TV news stringer interviewing folks complaining about the latest rise in gasoline prices – at an LA gas station. Interviewing folks mostly with guzzlers getting 14 mpg.
When the piece was over, the anchor asked, “so, what kind of mileage are you getting with your new car, Fred?”
“I like my Prius a lot. Averaging 49 mpg overall, so far.”
Just the right guy to send out on that piece.
Prius and Insight are the only two cars today that really get GOOD gas mileage. We must try to remember that 30 MPG is LOW not high. I drove a non-hybrid SUV in Belize that did better than that. And, it still got through 50 yards of knee deep mud. It was a Daihatsu Terios with a 1.3 or 1.5 liter engine. It didn’t even feel underpowered, even with an automatic. It easily made it up steep hills on BAD dirt roads and got 40 MPG.
So, let’s keep it clear what good mileage means. Not much in the U.S. makes the grade, not the RAV4, and certainly not the Mini.
What I’d really love to see is a diesel prius with a plug (not much use to me personally), solar panels, and this great device that should be on every combustion engine in the country.
http://tinyurl.com/zkqo6
I bet it’d win the megabuck for a commercially viable 100 MPG car.
For the solar panels, though I’d have put more on the car, check this link.
http://tinyurl.com/b4d5c
Your choice of a good hybrid are not bad :
– Prius (the most expensive)
– Camry (same price as Prius, but a nicer GrandPa car)
– Civic (cheapest and perhaps 95% as efficient as the Prius)
The other cars / trucks I won’t bother mentioning. A huge 4×4 hybrid, improving it’s mileage, almost a joke in improvement.
My personal choice for Prius is for the room inside, the Civic has 40/60 back seats, but it’s a standard trunk, not a hatchback.
Same deal with the Camry, and I wanted a sports-car-look too.
My wife preferred the Civic, as you can see much better with the rear-view mirror. Me, I don’t care on who’s following me, I’m always up front.
FWIW, an all-electric car that seats four people, with air-bags, climate control, power steering & windows, costs twice the price of a Prius.
After I’ve paid for it in 5 years, I’m going to upgrade the battery pack to go from an EV-2 to an EV-30. Currently that upgrade costs 32K$.
Hopefully the battery pack will drop in price in five years.
Real Life Mileage with the Prius after six months. About 15% better than my wife’s new Yaris. 250% better than my previous Toyota Sienna.
I have a hybrid Camry. Right now it has less than a thousand miles, so we will see how it ages. Dealer said the battery is designed to last the life of the car, and that if I traction brake, I wont ever need to replace the brake pads. Compared to my previous car, a Nissan Murano, it gets significantly better gas milage.
In two recent trips, the milage varied between 35-50mpg. Yesterday I went to Ann Arbor in 15mph winds with two passengers in the car, on a highway with a 70mph speed limit. I got about 35 mpg. Over the weekend, I went on a longer trip, but it was all on rural highways with the speed varying between 25-55mph, and I was traveling alone. I was at 50mpg.
One of my co-workers got the standard Camry. She is getting about 25mpg.
I would say overall, I am easily getting 3x the gas milage of the Murano. Something that I did not miss yesterday with Gasoline now going above $3 a gallon again. Oh, also the Murano needed the higher octane gasoline.
Driving around town in electric, with the gasoline engine not running, is very neat also. It is sooooo quiet.
The over the top neat feature has nothing to do with the hybrid power system at all. The keyless entry and ignition system. Starting the car is just a oversized button that says start.
I’ve owned a Toyota Matrix for two years, and love the little car. It replaced the most deadly vehicle in the world, a Chevy S10 Blazer. Amazingly, I only gave up about 10 cubic feet of interior space.
There were definitely some things I liked about the Chevy. Many things however led to a sinking feeling. Quite literally, the front seat bottoms began to fail, and it was like sitting in a tub. I ain’t exactly huge at 210lbs. Bad interior rattles, doors and the hatch never lined up correctly, and numerous other problems that came way too early.
It’s a shame too, as some of us can remember a day when it was a joke to compare a japanese car to a Chevy.
Joe,
A mechanic friend of mine feels the same way. Apparently also from a maintenance point of view GM is falling behind as well. the edges of the metal dont get finished and debured on GM’s anymore, so when the mechanic works on them, they get all sorts of nicks and cuts from sharp edges on the bodywork.
Price Comparisons with two all-electrics and hybrids.
A Zap-X, designed by LOTUS, all-electric. Size comparable to a Prius. Hard to find a price, but gut feeling is it will be 60K$, twice that of the Prius.
http://www.zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=4560
A Zap! Obvio 828E, all-electric, about the size of the original VW Bug, two seater, 49K$, or 19$K more than the Prius, half the size.
So buying a Toyota / Honda hybrid today, over five years, then upgrading the car in five years for fifteen times the battery capacity, for between 20k$ – 30k$ (at today’s price).
So, dollar-for-dollar, in five years my Prius will be 95% gas usage free, as my average speed to and from work isn’t faster than 40Mph.
Next step for hybrids are replacing gasoline, but why wait? They do the job now, can be upgraded for less than a full electric, and you get to keep your (ICE) gas engine. No brainer.
Saw an interesting direct comparison article by Popular Mechanics. Compared Honda Civic, to Honda Civic Hybrid. The financial gains on the hybrid are not paid for until you put 150,000 miles on the hybrid.
Also all I see is MPG MPG MPG!! Which does not offset:
1) Interior space – I like lots of elbow room
2) Ride – suspension like a rock is no fun.
3) Zoom zoom – I like to be able to drive 80 MPH without a hive of bees in front of me.
Kevin,
I sat in both the Prius and Camry before purchase. Both have plenty of room, as much as the Murano anyhow.
I was curious about speed as well. My Camry does highway speeds just fine, and will happily go 90mph (with horse power to spare, but 90 is more than enough for me), but gas milage goes to crap, as it does in any car… I know this because the car gives you constant feedback about milage.
Ive not noticed any difference in ride, but then I like feeling the road, and never really cared for the floaty feeling you get in GM cars.
As for price… I am comparing it to my Murano… And I will make up the price difference in gasoline by the end of this summer. But Then I put 40k Miles on a car a year.
#8 Kevin, I read it too. It’s a typical US-centric biased article, like many Popular Mechanic articles have been in the past.
The flaw in the article, and others like it, don’t take into account :
– gas price will (should) double in the next seven years
– batteries for hybrids will cost less than half within 3-4 years
– maintenance of the ICE (internal combustion engine)
– resell value of 50% and higher after 5 years
All hybrids will easily last 10 years with just an oil change every 6k miles, lube, new air filter. *nothing else to do*
– no transmission run down
– no engine run down
– no brake pad run down
– no muffler / exhaust system run down
– no rust of the major components
– battery still good, it might be between 50% – 80% of it’s original capacity after 10 years.
It’s hard to factor all that in, but then, all hybrid owners I know fall in two categories (I’m #1) :
1 – Bought instead of an SUV or Murano type vehicle, don’t care about cost price, but care about subsidizing hybrids to bring the price down due to demand.
2 – Real fuel cost savings obtained within three years, because the driver does over 30k miles per year. Like GregA.
Neither #1 or #2 apply for good quality small economy cars. Are you a small car owner? To each his own.
If you drive a large amount of miles per year, you need vehicle comfort that the tiny cars just don’t have. Or the safety.
I’ll drive to Florida from Montreal in my Prius anytime, but never with my wife’s Yaris.
I think Toyota hit the nail on the head marketing hybrids for the rich middle-class and upper class. Within five years there’s going to be a huge market for pre-owned hybrids.
So MPG is only part of the equation you should consider in the purchase of your next hybrid.
You Know You Want One Now.
// Sorry for the long read
How about an electric Mini? Only 59K$ ! ! !
http://tinyurl.com/2wv2jm Links to autoblog.com
So a brand-new Prius upsized to EV-30 is still cheaper, roomier, safer.
Quote : Ziegler says, “People want cars that don’t look like electric cars.”
That made me laugh. 🙂 No, people want functional cars, period.
Oh, and Kevin, go test drive a Civic Hybrid or Prius. If you find the performance poor, wait a year, and try the 2008 Prius. Stronger ICE and electric motor will make it the fastest hybrid on the planet.
For those comparing fuel cost, don’t forget that we pay the bulk of the price for gasoline hidden in our tax bills.
When you figure the cost of fuel, try using the real number of about $12-$15/gallon.
Don’t believe me though. Check out the report. It’s nicely broken down so that if you’re skeptical about specific sections, you can subtract out the numbers you choose not to believe.
http://tinyurl.com/2g3pq4
#11 – Mark Derail
“Stronger ICE and electric motor will make it the fastest hybrid on the planet.”
I don’t think so… 🙂
This fall, I’m treating myself to my first brand-new car, also a Toyota of sorts. I’m fairly certain either it or the GS450h will earn the “fastest (production) hybrid” label.
Lauren the Ghoti,
I’m surprised that you would buy a gas guzzler. Hybrid only means efficient when you don’t couple it to a monster ICE. The car you describe is likely to get really lousy gas mileage. Do you really drive that fast? Or do you just think it’s cool to be able to? If the latter, please consider not burning gasoline to look cool. It’s a silly obsession we’ve got in this country.
Idiots buy vehicles capable of doing 0-60 in 6 seconds up the side of a mountain of mud. Then they sit in traffic on the way to the stupidmarket. Let’s all grow up and realize what we’re doing to the planet.
I just checked. This hybrid doesn’t even get 30MPG, yecch!! And how often do you really need to do 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. What a piece of crap! Hybrids should be used to improve fuel economy not build race cars.
Oh my goodness — here’s gallons per mile, to heck with all those green cars. Unless youv’e got $1.4M and want to buy me the most expensive production car on the planet (hey, it’s a VW). 🙂
From Top Gear, enjoy:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/422697/bugatti_veyron_on_top_gear/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron
#12 Misanthropic Scott – I bow to you sir. Not every day I can learn something new in the GAS economy.
#13 Lauren – technically, you are correct, if we label the new Lexus a hybrid. Perhaps just not an overly efficient one.
Misanthropic Scott’s comment is valid though – so why not a fully decked Camry Hybrid instead, and save some $$$ in the process?
What I like about the Prius, is the ability to upsize to plug-in in the future. Also alternative fuel sources.
#14 – M Scott
“I’m surprised that you would buy a gas guzzler.”
Depends on what one calls a gas guzzler. My ’70 500CID Cadillac can get just over 15 at a constant 60MPH, but around town, about 8-9. I don’t drive it that often. 🙂
The Lex’s competition is primarily the V-12 Mercs and BMWs. And compared to them, the Lex runs on fumes… and it is classed as a SULEV too.
“Do you really drive that fast?”
Actually, yes. When appropriate, and, of course, safe.
“Hybrids should be used to improve fuel economy not build race cars.”
Well, Toyota realizes that large luxury cars are going to exist and people are going to buy them, so who’s more qualified to build one that’s as responsible as possible? It’s a luxury car made hybrid, not a econocar with lotsa bells and whistles…
#16 – Mark Derail
“…if we label the new Lexus a hybrid. Perhaps just not an overly efficient one.
Misanthropic Scott’s comment is valid though – so why not a fully decked Camry Hybrid instead, and save some $$$ in the process?”
It’s like this. I’m getting older. I don’t enjoy fiddling with cars like I used to. But I still drive a lot, I still drive fast and I still enjoy it. So, I want the most reliable, most luxurious performance sedan made. That, until recently, meant the LS460. But then the 600 was announced, making it the top performer, with AWD, no less. The fuel efficiency and low emissions profile were and are secondary. Still, I find it appealing, since I can indulge my hedonism and driving style while being more eco-responsible. Less environmental impact with no real sacrifices. So I see it as a win-win.
And although it’s not cheap, considering Toyota longevity, by the end of it’s functional life (which’ll probably exceed mine), my overall cost-per-mile is going to be ridiculously low, so it’ll be an investment that only feels like an indulgence.
Piss on it, I get 52 miles a gallon with my motorcycle. I ride fast, have it piped, and enjoy myself. That is about as eco-friendly as I can get at the moment, being a college student working full time.
It’s funny, but I think a lot of people are overlooking the real reason why Toyota is dominating GM:
build quality.
Domestics continue to fall down and down reliability rankings, while imports get better. Throw in the better gas mileage overall and you have GM and Ford sinking fast.
#17 – Lauren TG,
What really bugs me though is that, if you read The Real Price of Gasoline, know the cost is somewhere around $15/gallon, and still buy your race car, what happens is:
1) You fill up, approx 15 gallons leaving 2.3 in reserve, for $225.
2) You pay just $37.50
3) The rest of us here in the U.S. foot the $187.50 that you didn’t pay.
4) We don’t use that money to fund any of:
a) national health care.
b) better public education.
c) a decent workfare program.
d) or even just leave it in each of our pockets for a really nice dinner.
5) We all pay into a fund to give a few cents per gallon to the terrorists that want to blow us up.
Please, the Prius can carry just as many passengers, has major league geek appeal, will get through bad weather better with its front wheel drive, and you can talk about how environmentally conscious you really are instead of just how thoroughly environmentally unconscious you could have been.
#18 – Gwendle, good job and way to show the rest of us the way. We do not need to transport cars. We need to transport people. Riding your bike transports less steel and gives you great mileage. Wallow in it!!
#19 – Brian,
True, but buying an efficient car from the company of your choice still encourages more efficient cars.
#21 – Frank IBC,
See post #12 on this thread. I posted the link there. It really is worth a read. The costs are broken out into multiple sections. So, if you feel that morally, any of the costs they list should not be considered a cost of gasoline, you can subtract those.