Chilling video about a news team going undercover inside British mosques, exposing radicalism from Saudi Wahhabism.
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For a Christian view on the Islam vs. Christianity debate, here:
http://www.carm.org/islam.htm
These guys are my favorite writers on subjects like this thus far. Hopefully this gives people on both sides some food for the brain to chew on.
I’m also on the side of having the moderate Islamists take a harder stand against the extremists. It would make miles of difference in a lot of peoples minds around world.
#30 – Both sides? What both sides? Let’s not act like Christianity and Islam are the only religions.
This is a dumb debate between dumb people. Best as I can tell, the Bhuddists are the only ones without an appreciable number of asshats infecting their ranks…
I would have to agree with #30. I would like more of the moderate Islamists taking a stand and speaking out against the radicals. I do call myself Christian, and have no qualm with anyone that believes in something that differs from my views. Christians have their asshat extreme idiots, Islam has theirs, ect. Anytime I see anyone that claims they are Christian and does something really quite, um, idiotic like bombing an abortion clinic, I speak out against them in a heartbeat.
ezma, could you do me a favor? Since you say you are a moderate Islamist, just for everyone’s sake, can you denounce the people that are Islamic extremests? I think that would make a few people around here a bit more relaxed.
check out the torrent sites out there and you can download the entire program. It is a british program called Dispatches. Very informative
The most amazing part of this video is that it was on television on channel 12! The leftists have been downplaying the whole thing for years.
In the book, “While Europe Slept”, Bruce Bawer writes eloquently that Europe might very well be lost to Islam. Bruce is a gay journalist who went to Sweden to get married to his partner. After living there for a while, he came back to the U.S. to get away from the blood bath that is about to happen. As a liberal gay, he makes a case that the liberals need to make an alliance with the Christians against the Muslims. Their lives are at stake.
In “Inside Al Qaeda”, Mohamed Sifaoui went undercover on his own into an Al Qaeda cell in France. He recorded the two-faced nature of these Muslims and how they sincerely felt about the world, infidels and life in general.
An old book, “The Life and Religion of Mohammed”, was written by J.L. Menezes in 1912. He writes the sordid biography of Mohammed (cursed be his name) and the religion that he made. In one battle, Mohammed was wounded and lost the battle. Originally, Mohammed was friends with the Jews, but they started criticizing him too much, so he made them his enemies. Originally, their sabbath was the same as the Jews until he had a falling out with them, so he changed the Muslim sabbath to Thursday. There was another Koran at one time. But one side was massacred, so there is only one version today. One of his wives asked him if he was going to heaven and he said he didn’t know. And yet there are Muslims who blow themselves up on Mohammed’s promise that they would go to heaven..
Another book is called “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades” by Robert Spencer. It is a recent book to counter the Humanist love-fest the media have had with Islam.
So much response. I wish there was am easier way to respond. There’s lots to say.
A few points.
I understand there are people like this that exist and have these beliefs and preach them.
My objection is to the media that focuses on anything negative that can be associated with the word “muslim”. There is far too much of it going on, feeding on the general public’s ignorance of the arab culture and the islamic faith.
So in response to your post John(#7). I know these things happen. I don’t like how these are the only things pointed out about the faith. It feeds the fear people have of the faith they know so little about.
I know the video was posted by someone else, but this blog does have your name on it. I assume you have overall power of the types of things posted.
Don’t get me wrong. I like this blog very much. Its in my “daily news” bookmark folder in firefox. Its the video itself that I think is hate mongering. I was just a little disappointed that it was being presented on this blog.
Its kind of sad how my comment stating my point of view created such an offensive outcry. I just wanted to make my point of view heard. Wasn’t out to change the world or how this blog is run.
#32. I agree islam needs some people to stand up and defend it by denouncing the actions of extremists. It seems to be necessary. Its odd though. When a christian does some insane like blow up an abortion clinic, I don’t see the fact that they are christian being the most important point. Its not necessary for the Christian community to denounce that groups actions. Not for me at least. Its safe to assume those are a few people with twisted ideas and don’t represent and entire religion/culture/group.
Someone here said it best. There are extremists everywhere. The only difference between the muslim,christian and others is where they were born.
Cheers
34 – Those are some interesting leads. Thank you.
17 – Same, so thank you.
But – to counter the Humanist love-fest the media have had with Islam ? Where have you seen that? Are you sure you’re not confusing a bias toward tolerance and a dislike of hate speech with a “love fest”? If not, pls post a link to a Western major media love fest with Islam.
Sorry, should have been addressed to 35, Timbo, not 34
truly a revolting display, like a Klan meeting.
#34. Hmm, does the ‘Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades’ cover thoroughly the rape of Constantinople by the knights of the Fourth Crusade? And the documented cannabalism of Muslims by Christians that took place during one of the earlier ones?
#14. Wow, Jimmy – a threat to use WMD. Have fun in Gitmo.
And Bush walks around holding Saudi leaders’ hands because he is a petrosexual.
#1 – I didn’t think this blog would ever join that bandwagon.
If you’ve not noticed… we give equal treatment to all religious fanatics.
#5 – Man, we need more atheists in the world to counter-balance this insane devotion to fabricated gods.
Would make us all breathe more easy.
#15 – #14 not nice, this is a place for debate not veiled threats. we complain ,we insult ,we rant but we dont threaten,
Agreed.
#16 – No, they used the “hidden ” camera to give it a “special effect ” as if you cannot just go in to any mosque in Britain or USA and start rolling the tape.
If they showed just the videos, people would claim that it was just the person on the video’s opinion. With hidden camera, you can get a more clear picture of what is actually said in the Mosque’s, before, under and after the speech.
You spent so much effort in criticizing the reporters, but nothing of what was in the video… why?
#22 – Only the Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens. The Koran/Quran does not.
Same product, different package.
#26 – #15 – What’s this we shit? I’m showing this blog how to handle these idiots.
And you also put yourself on the same level as the fundies.
#29 – This is NOTHING. We have in the US Christian Identity churches that say the exact same things. We have Klansman that say the exact same things. We have White Power and Neo-Nazis that say the exact same things.
And we can criticize them and their religion as much as we want.
The rest of your post was excellent, Cursor_.
#36 – I like this blog very much. Its in my “daily news” bookmark folder in firefox.
If it is, then you know very well that we’re bashing all the Christian nutcases here as well.
One thing I notice in your posts is that you don’t dare to condemn these nutcases that act in name of your religion. Is it because you’re afraid of them? Or is it because deep inside you agree with them? Please let me know your thoughts.
When a christian does some insane like blow up an abortion clinic, I don’t see the fact that they are christian being the most important point.
It is… open your eyes. You’re just feeling defensive because now it’s your religion that’s in the spotlight. Deal with it instead of blaming the messengers.
#28 — I NEVER said I’m not responsible for what is posted here. What I said was that it was not my post and thus I was asking why is the reader addressing me as if I were the writer. That’s what I complain about. When a tech writer for the New York Times writes something do you write the publisher and tell the publisher that HE doesn’t know what he’s talking about as if he wrote the article? Or do you address the writer?
Hey it’s not that hard to figure out if you’ve ever been online before.
#41
I re-read post #36, and I couldn’t see a clear message except for criticizing the messengers.
Denouncing nutcases is the responsibility of all people who act in groups, or the nutcases voice becomes the voice of the group. If you can’t understand this, then I can assure you that this is not the last documentary that depicts Islam in a light that is foreign to you.
#42
Makes perfect sense. You can understand the confusion though. This is touted as your blog, not a publication. Although other post as well, I’ve always still perceived it as your blog. Point taken though. New mindset when looking at these posts(no negative connotation there).
#43
I denounce the actions of anybody who does anything against the law or that is immoral. That goes for Muslims, Canadians, males, heterosexuals, software developers, university students, people that are 6′ tall, motorsport enthusiasts and Formula 1 fans.
I think that’s all the groups I belong to. Hey really. I denounce any bad actions by Christians, females, citizens of any other nation,etc…
I don’t mean to be a smart ass, but I’m trying to illustrate a point. I don’t think responsibility should lay on the members of a group to denounce the actions of some nutcases that claim to be in said group. Otherwise it would be a full time job for everyone to denounce the actions of every negative act.
In my eyes it should be much simpler. People should understand the actions of a few don’t represent the actions of many.
That’s how I think it should be, but I know it’ll never be like that. I find that sad.
You are right in your statement that the voices of the nutcases has become the voice of the group. The media has given these nutcases the soapbox to stand on. Muslims now have to fight this poor image. How is that supposed to happen when the media with access to the publics ear keeps bombarding people with the nutcases stories?
Why is it my job to denounce the act of those that claim to follow the muslim faith? Why is it my job to defend against the negative image of islam presented by the media? You seem to think it is.
I guess I can expect you to denounce any actions of [insert all groups you belong to here] when somebody in that group commits a crime or spreads hate speech.
my 2 cents
P.S. First crack at using blockquote tags didn’t work in my last post. Those were responses to certain parts of your post. Guess you got the point though.
Thanks, Jägermeister, for saying exactly what I would have (except you did it in fewer words – but it otay, nobody’s perfect) 🙂
Kareem – I have to say, I don’t think you’re grasping what’s expected of you.
What’s the point in telling the non-Muslim world that the extremists don’t speak for you or the majority of Muslims? That doesn’t change the minds of the extremists or alter their behavior. It does nothing to stop them.
Your duty – not just to Islam, or to the victims of Muslim extremism, but to all of civilized humanity – is to denounce them in the mosques. Denounce them at home. Denounce and disown and shun them. Stand together and isolate them. Show them that they are outnumbered. Refuse to do business with them, to socialize with them, to acknowledge their existence.
Why, you asked, is it up to you to do this? Simple. To the extremists, we are infidels. What we say and what we think is to be ignored. You, however, are their brethren. You, and not we, can claim the right to condemn and denounce them.
Do you understand? They will disregard what we say – but other Muslims looking on will pay attention, and want to hear the extremists’ responses, when the people demanding the answers are fellow Muslims.
– – – – – –
The issue here of religious moderates versus religious extremists is a red herring. Xians, Jews, Muslims – it makes no difference which religion is in question, the answer always comes back the same.
Here’s what the moderates say, in all sincerity:
“No, you’ve got it all wrong. Those others who claim to represent Xianity / Judaism / Islam are not really Xians / Jews / Muslims, we are.”
Now, let’s contrast that with what the extremists say:
“No, you’ve got it all wrong. Those others who claim to represent Xianity / Judaism / Islam are not really Xians / Jews / Muslims, we are.”
Quite a difference, huh?
So how do we know which ones really represent their religion accurately? Simple. We’ll see which ones have the evidence on their side.
OOPS. Unfortunately, since this is religion, everything is a matter of interpretation, it’s all subjective – there is exactly zero objective evidence of anything, since it’s 100% about what somebody says, versus something somebody else says!
Nothing can be resolved like this. Extremists claim to represent the true faith, and that can’t be proved or disproved. Wahabbists say that they’re right. Sunnis say that’s ridiculous, because it’s obvious that they’re right. The Shi’ites say that neither of the others are real Muslims, since they believe something else…
So please, Kareem, retire that bit about how “they” don’t represent Islam; “they” say the exact same thing about you, with exactly as much justification.
THAT’S why it’s up to you to stop them.
[editor: Lauren, as John says in 1 word, “summarize“. Even at 1680×1050, this Comment overlaps a page]
#44 – You are right in your statement that the voices of the nutcases has become the voice of the group. The media has given these nutcases the soapbox to stand on. Muslims now have to fight this poor image. How is that supposed to happen when the media with access to the publics ear keeps bombarding people with the nutcases stories?
Why is it my job to denounce the act of those that claim to follow the muslim faith? Why is it my job to defend against the negative image of islam presented by the media? You seem to think it is.
Yes, it is your duty as a member of this group to denounce the nutcases. But the bolded text above shows such contradictions. As long as you can’t get your act together and speak out, then you will not see any type of understanding for you or your religion from the rest of the society.
And as for nutcases in the few groups that I belong to (such as my country)… you can bet your ass that I denounce them. Why should they give me a bad name when I do not agree with them?
#45 – Thanks, Jägermeister, for saying exactly what I would have (except you did it in fewer words – but it otay, nobody’s perfect)
Thanks, but it doesn’t mean that you can spank my butt, okay! 😉
#42, Unfortunately you ask for people to be rational. Many visitors to DU only look at the pictures before writing something.
#43, Denouncing nutcases is the responsibility of all people who act in groups, or the nutcases voice becomes the voice of the group. If you can’t understand this, then I can assure you that this is not the last documentary that depicts Islam in a light that is foreign to you.
Words to post by.
***
Until mankind gets past this running to a “Higher Spirit”, we will continue to have extremists extolling the correctness of their “god”.
BTW, Santa Claus is not a god. I play Santa every December at several children’s events and although I awe many, I have yet to be offered any virgins for my pleasure. I haven’t even been offered an old hag.
If denouncing is as simple as not doing business with them, kicking them out of gatherings, this must already be what happens.
My view of these workings is limited to myself in my own town, but I can’t imagine anybody associating with someone they know is a criminal. Religious extremist or not. I wouldn’t do business with any criminal. Its just common sense.
Do these people go around with a badge on their sleeve? How are people supposed to know the person they’re talking to is an Islamic terrorist or a member of the KKK?
So that’s easy. I don’t do business with people that don’t follow universally accepted morals. Its not hard.
That doesn’t seem to be what’s asked of the Muslim majority. They are asked to defend the image of their faith against that created by a few nutcases magnified by the media.
If making Islam look good brought them good ratings, the public perception of Islam would be completely different, but its not.
The issue is as simple as this.
A few nutcases are screaming at the top of their lungs and the media is making a point of showing their twisted beliefs to the public. I’m sure it sells ads and/or has some political benefit to somebody.
Non-muslims are believing that Islam encourages these nutcase’s actions. I hope the readers of DU have enough common sense to know that a religion accepted by so many does not preach what these maniacs think.
Non-muslims expect real muslims to constantly denounce the actions of the extremists every time CNN decides to show some crazy man with his foolish beliefs.
Even as a Christian, it would be unreasonable to expect every crime committed by a Christian to be denounced by the Christian community.
#45
You speak as though there’s a 50/50 split of extremists to normal muslims. There are groups within every religion. Christianity and Jedaism are divided as well. The division of nutcases from regular people is not along the same lines. There are extremists from every faith and every division within the faith.
Is it safe to assume that any extremist group does not represent an entire faith, or even a significant portion of it? It should be. An extremist group, by definition is a small minority. If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be called extreme.
I agree with most of what is being said here. I just think its unnecessary to apply these ideas to muslims specifically. Why is it relevant? A nutcase is a nutcase is a nutcase. The only group I need to know about is the murderers. Doesn’t matter what your beliefs are. Your a murders. Game over.
It just feeds the public’s fears when the focus is put on the person’s faith which you must agree is especially done when its a muslim.
I’ve enjoyed the debate folks. I could talk about this all day. Actually, we have!
I don’t think there’s any positive agenda behind seeking out islamic extremist groups and making statements(or videos) who’s purpose is to say. “Look! Look how crazy muslims are!”.
For every group they find, I’m sure you can find a Christian group just as crazy. Or a group of men, or tall people or whatever other way you want to draw a line.
Its pointless. Repeating the stories only helps feed the misplaced fear in the public.
I’ll end here because I’m just rambling now.
Cheers
[editor: as I noted above, please summarize, edit your own comments or we must.]
In my observation, most Muslims feel that the real problem in their religion is bad publicity.
So, they are loath to to speak out against one of their own so as to fuel this negative image of Islam
But his silence just fuels the negative image of Islam.
For example: the same week that the Abu Ghraib photos came out, some Muslims in Iraq blew up a bus load of Muslim school children. One event was widely denounced in the Muslim press (rightly so) but the other was totally ignored (very very wrongly so.).
People hear that silence and make assumption about Muslims and even Islam that are wrong but understandable.
#48 – Kareem
“Do these people go around with a badge on their sleeve? How are people supposed to know the person they’re talking to is an Islamic terrorist or a member of the KKK?”
Ah, but that’s not what we’re talking about. In your neighborhood, in your local Muslim community, you know, and the other Muslims around you know, who is who. You know if a certain school teaches Wahabbi doctrine, and you also know who sends their children there. You know the mosques and you know which imams rant against the infidel and preach jihad. You know who goes to these mosques to hear this preaching. They don’t operate in secrecy. You are the ones who don’t tell your fellow Muslims that preaching jihad is wrong. You are the ones who aren’t getting together and demanding that Wahabbist schools be closed. I suppose you expect non-Muslims to do those things, hmm?
“A few nutcases are screaming at the top of their lungs and the media is making a point of showing their twisted beliefs to the public. I’m sure it sells ads and/or has some political benefit to somebody.”
A “few nutcases” destroyed two gigantic, world-famous landmark buildings full of innocent human beings. One of those “few nutcases” walked into a crowded pizzeria and blew a bunch of teenage kids into burnt, bloody pieces. Every day, dozens, hundreds of these “few nutcases” take dynamite and AK-47s to men, women and children – fellow Muslims, fellow human beings.
“Non-muslims are believing that Islam encourages these nutcase’s actions.”
These things were done to please Allah. These things were deliberately done in the name of Islam. The people who did these things took their directions from Quran.
“I hope the readers of DU have enough common sense to know that a religion accepted by so many does not preach what these maniacs think.”
We know, and you know, that these people were told to do these things by Muslim leaders, not by lunatics on a street corner who were just released from hospital.
“Non-muslims expect real muslims to constantly denounce the actions of the extremists every time CNN decides to show some crazy man with his foolish beliefs.
Even as a Christian, it would be unreasonable to expect every crime committed by a Christian to be denounced by the Christian community.”
No it wouldn’t, Kareem. Xians are expected to denounce what atrocities Xians commit – if they’re committed in the name of their Lord!
Please don’t try excusing yourselves. As I said, you know who the imams who preach jihad are, and the people who go to listen to them. You know who studies at Wahabbist schools. We non-Muslims don’t, and if we did, there’s still nothing we can do about it.
You and your people don’t seem to understand that the more terrorism is committed under the banner of Islam, the harder and more dangerous life becomes for all, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. Whether that’s fair or not makes no difference. Do you want peace? Then you must address the problem.
The “misplaced fear” in the public?? Really? 600,000+ Iraqis dead alone, men women, children. Sudden, brutal death, caused by, inspired by and justified by the Islamic religion.
“For every group they find, I’m sure you can find a Christian group just as crazy. Or a group of men, or tall people or whatever other way you want to draw a line.”
Except that tall people, or Xians haven’t brutally slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people. Only Muslims.
religion = superstition.
How can the argument that muslim fundies are minority nutcases be credeble when all the muslim nations are judicially and religiously intolerant? And may I remind I am not talking about just oil dependent nations, I am talking about all muslim nations from arabia to africa to south asia to south-east asia. Just read the reports on subjugation of religious minorities in those nations.
And how about all the zakat money that gets transfered from peace loving muslim “majority” to intolerant muslim nutcase “minority” and gets used to fund the miserable bombings across the world. Have the peace lovers stopped paying zakat or atleast ensured the zakat doesnt go on to fundies?
Ofcourse there are peace loving and progressive muslims but evidence says they are the minority, both silent and vocal.
I just dont understand… how do people actually believe this drivell… not the hidden cam i mean about their religions and the authenticity or correctness of any particular one.
if you were right and there was an omnitpitint, omnicient all powerfull god, he’d still be talking via burnning bushes, waterwalking children, rod to snake, spread the sea ways.
everyone says you have to see the signs… most all religions that have a god that hates everyone else (his creations mind, i personally wouldnt have a pet that bit me all the time i’d put it down, come on 4000 or so years of “mabe it’ll be better nex time”???) their god has smitted as only the mighty smitter that he is can smite or smote or what ever. and made it clear to the world,
what he gave up? and now only moves in mysterious ways? common just think.. bah i dont know
#50
Are you kidding me?! You think these nutcases are out in the open?
You think its common practice that a psycho imam is preaching hate? As if I walk into a mosque, hear an imam say “let’s kill the infidels”, then just leave and move to the next mosque.
Do you know where are the crazy Christians are that are planning on blowing up the next abortion clinic? I assume not. Why? Because they’re just not around in general.
It is a few nutcases. Put it in perspective. Hundreds.. thousands of extremists even, isn’t even a speck on the billion+ population. It is a very small minority. It doesn’t take more than a single person to commit some terrible act and kill many. There is no minimizing the effects of these extremists. Everyone understands the havoc they have wreaked on the world.
You should be able to see, there are the few who claim to be muslim. Ask any muslim if these extremists are members of their religion and they will say no. Ask the 1billion minus a thousand real muslims and they will say no.
Your argument of me knowing where the extremists are is ridiculous. Are you christian? Where are all the crazies that act in the name of Jesus?
Next your going to ask me if I know Bob because I’m from Canada.
I know where the nuts are just like you knew about Timothy Mcveigh’s plans before he blew up that building. By your reasoning, I should believe Christianity encourages these things. There are videos of priests preaching hate. There are video of the madness preached in KKK meetings. Does that effect my views on Christianity? No. Of course not. I’m not stupid. I know a few idiots don’t represent the faith.
You don’t think this way with Islam because you simply don’t know. All you see is the hate preached by some idiots with a headline that has the words “mosque” and “islam” in it. You’ve been fed this every day for years now. Its a shame you’re believing it. You actually think there is a large percentage of muslims that do these things. Like its the norm. As though I meet a muslim and say. “Hey, you’re a muslim. Terrorist?”.. “ya.”.. “Cool. I’m not. but have a nice day.”
What would you do if you walked into a Christian gathering and heard hate preaching? Make call? Complain to somebody? If you were seriously in fear of something major, call the cops? right?
What makes you think anybody else wouldn’t do the same?
#39 – Well, I’d have to find a WMD first… As for Gitmo, I sent my RNC dues a few weeks ago. No worries here.
#40 – Wrong. They kill without justification. I propose killing with justification. Big fuckin’ difference.
Time for the Brits to do some house cleaning and call Terminex.
this type of thing, is ONLY going to cause infighting, terror, and alot of HATE in this country.
NOT only the brits, but also in the muslim community.